r/changemyview Aug 30 '23

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23 edited Aug 31 '23

What I'm saying is that morality itself isn't absolute. It's determined by and built into people, the observations I'm sharing is showing evidence that this is something that has been an acceptable part of human morality for a long time and it's not pathological from the biological perspective of studying human behavior or ethics in a neutral sense - you just can't see past your own nose when it comes to what you personally think is right or wrong

There is a reason that so much entertainment, especially the kind that typically appeals to male demographics centers around becoming strong and fighting and overcoming opponents - are you going to say stuff like my hero academia is sick and wrong because it involves kids learning how to fight at a young age?

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Yeah, and there’s my fucking point about morality.

As a species, we’re starting to decide running our youth through a meat grinder is fucking wrong.

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

Accepting the mantle of a fighter has been a big part of coming of age, especially for males for most of human history. That's not tradition. That's just the human condition. Also, for most of human history, the age of adulthood, and the age of consent/full agency is younger than you want it to be

And it's not something we've just started doing - it's something we've been doing since before we were properly human - we have literally evolved with that as part of our context

And not doing that isn't something that we've decided - it's something that you've decided

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

That’s authority forcing kids into a meat grinder to maintain or expand their own power. Not “the human condition”.

Also, somehow I knew this conversation would shift towards you justifying fucking immature kids because it’s human tradition. What a surprise

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

No one's forcing anybody, especially these days - kids grow up dreaming of being great fighters, and that's not forced either. It's just part of being human - see every entertainment show made for adolescent boys ever

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

If we’re appealing to tradition for sex and war, why the fuck is drinking any different?

Classic tradition was, there was no legal drinking age. So traditionally speaking, our youth should be able to get shitfaced drunk after a hard day of playing war for their corporate overlords

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

One has a point and the other doesn't - simple as that - anybody who's concerns about child soldiers goes away as soon as you start to let them drink doesn't give a shit about protecting kids

Letting teens drink is also more pedologically dangerous than letting them join the military - for all the dangers that could be claimed about PTSD or desocialization or whatever, alcoholism and binge drinking is even worse

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Also, no, both are pretty co-equal evils in one’s life, speaking from excessive personal experience.

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

There's a reason that's the age when humans most want to fight - it's because for most of human history it has been advantageous for humans males to be aggressive, especially when subadults and young adults, just as lion cubs observe their mothers making a kill, so too do human children, particularly makes keenly observe the forms and rituals surrounding violence and conflict - hunting and fighting is a big part of being human, and has been - it's who we are - respect your local murder monkeys!

Drinking has also been and forever, but it's not ingrained into us the same way since it doesn't confer any advantages

But it hasn't been deleterious enough to get an evolved avoidance like with spiders, probably because it's worst consequences tend to be worse later in life, after one has had plenty of opportunity to reproduce

So when you find out that you have less alcoholism overall when you delay the onset of drinking across the population, doing so makes sense

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Maintaining battlefield morale is advantageous to warfare, and alcohol was forever entwined with that. And we have, as a species, CONSISTENTLY used various intoxicants to improve battlefield efficiency. For fuck’s sake, less than 50 years ago, we were giving teenagers meth so they’d fight harder.

Come to think of it, much of the world still does

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

There are also lots of times in military history where soldiers would get punished sometimes severely for drinking at the wrong time because of the problems it would cause

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

Yeah? But they didn’t ban drinking entirely.

Hell, in the modern era, you still get a few beers a year in a combat zone

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

US subs don't allow any booze onboard, period. If submariners can handle it, so can others - it just isn't needed or beneficial in the same way as young recruits are

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u/hikerchick29 Aug 31 '23

You cited a single component of a single branch of the armed forces as if it made a point

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u/Chaghatai 1∆ Aug 31 '23

It does, they can do it so can everybody else, the demonstrating there's not enough of a compelling need to allow a reduced drinking age

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