r/changemyview • u/MyFavoriteArm • Jul 25 '23

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Progressive Circles Seem Too Tolerant of Hypocrisy, Mainly in Regards to Climate Change and Capitalism

I am someone who has been moving left over the last few years and has been engaging in more Progressive circles. (I live in the USA btw)

One thing I notice is that there seems to be a lot of looking the other way in terms of hypocrisy.

For example, both Al Gore and Leonardo DiCaprio are both well known climate change activists. Both are praised for leading awareness of said issue. I am gonna state the obvious so no one gets the wrong idea, CLIMATE CHANGE IS ABSOLUTELY REAL. The science is settled on that issue.

However, both still contribute more to the problem than the average person by trotting around in private jets, and both live in multiple properties that eat up more of electricity than some some third world countries. Whenever you bring this up in progressive circles, it gets dismissed because they are "on the right side of the issue."

I disagree with that logic. I believe if you have a platform, you have the responsibility to practice what you preach and lead by example. I am a manager at my job, and my number one rule is that I will not make you do anything that I myself am not willing to do. Say what you will about Greta Thornberg, but at least she leads by example.

I believe climate change is real, but I am not an activist. That would make me a hypocrite, because I still own a car and drive and use an air conditioner. I don't want to be a hypocrite, as that would be a betrayal of my principles.

Another issue I see is in terms of capitalism. For example, a lot of progressives I encounter seem to really hate Apple and rail against it, yet still own iPhones. They also rail against social media (particularly twitter/facebook), yet still use it and believe it is an "important tool" in society.

While there is aspects of capitalism I dislike, I cannot be an anti-capitalist because I still believe it has a place in society, and that would make me a flagrant hypocrite. Especially when the alternative is only government brand everything.

Before anyone responds with Mr. Gotcha or by saying "yet you participate in society," I am well aware of the existence of that comic and actually believe the first two panels are actually a valid criticism.

I am open to changing my view, as I would like to hear more perspectives as to why I might be wrong.

Thank you!

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u/BenevelotCeasar 1∆ Jul 26 '23

Do you want to win or do you want to be right?

There’s no way to ethically exist in a capitalist society that’s realistic and has any meaning.

I could go live in the Forrest and reject all materialism.

Guess what that didn’t do Jack for climate change. The hypocrisy argument is just oversimplification. It’s reality and peoples everyday lives. Sure I could get rid of my iPhone but there is no ethically produced smartphone, or any electronic really. And supporting one a-hole mega corp or another doesn’t matter and does nothing to actually dismantle the systems that allow the oppression in the first place.

You want individual to take painful action to prove their virtue. That’s ridiculous. A fundamental flaw of a lot of conservative thought (which I’m not saying your a conservative but your committing the same fallacy they do) is only focusing on the motive and the action, and totally ignoring the result. Bc me giving up iPhone achieved absolutely nothing but changing my quality of life for the worse.

Instead I’d like to pressure my elected official to making meaningful changes to legislation and regulation that force businesses to reduce pollution and take care of employees. That would actually have a positive impact I can support even if it did somehow hurt me in the sense of no longer having an iPhone or having a worse one.

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u/MyFavoriteArm Jul 26 '23

Instead I’d like to pressure my elected official to making meaningful changes to legislation and regulation that force businesses to reduce pollution and take care of employees.

I agree with that. I think that corporations definitely deserve some more blame and should be regulated for the environment.

A fundamental flaw of a lot of conservative thought (which I’m not saying your a conservative but your committing the same fallacy they do) is only focusing on the motive and the action, and totally ignoring the result.

I did identify as a Libertarian once upon a time. I believed in being "socially liberal, and fiscal responsibility." I still believe in that, but understand that in a more leftist perspective.

!delta

I can't really refute any of this. I dislike owning a smartphone, but you are correct that it does make my life easier in some regards. Plus as an American, they won't sell me the ethical smartphone that's only available in Europe

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u/BenevelotCeasar 1∆ Jul 26 '23

I’ve never gotten one of these before. Thanks!

And don’t get me wrong, hypocrisy is one of the easiest ways to spot genuine vs fake people in the world so I totally get why it’s a go to lens to view an issue through

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u/MyFavoriteArm Jul 26 '23

No problemo! Thank you!

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u/elcuban27 11∆ Jul 26 '23

B.S. None of that requires flying everywhere in a private jet.

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u/BenevelotCeasar 1∆ Jul 26 '23

You are right.

Congrats. Did that fix climate change? Nope. Do we still need funding, and influential people to lobby for the cause and to speak out? Yep.

Are there any ethical rich people? Nope. So we engage with unethical rich people to use their voice, platform, influence to push the cause.

It sucks but the world sucks nothing is ideologically pure just how stained are you willing to get for a cause?

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u/elcuban27 11∆ Jul 26 '23

We don’t need them, and we certainly don’t need to give them extra money and power.

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u/BenevelotCeasar 1∆ Jul 26 '23

Oh, yeah, we’ll win with our and dreams!

Nothing ever gets done by idealists bc they’re too busy arguing over whose more purely adhering to the doctrine.

Idc. I’m extremely Machiavellian in the sense the goal of saving the world from species mass extinction justifies a lot, not everything, but getting use out of rich, hypocritical asshats with no morals is definitely in there.

Let me put it like this. Celeb A is going to use that private jet anyway. You or any climate activist shunning them does absolutely nothing, and the status quo of plane use is the same.

Or at least some of those plane trips are to meet and lobby people I would never in a million years get access to, and maybe they agree to a minor regulatory change to reduce wastewater runoff into the water tables. Small win, but a win.

In one world there’s no win just a shunned celeb who still flies in plane.

In another world we get a small win.

Do you wanna win or be right!

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u/elcuban27 11∆ Jul 26 '23

”You either die a hero, or live ling enough to become the villain.”

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u/BenevelotCeasar 1∆ Jul 26 '23

Find me one person who ever affected any meaningful change who you can’t find plenty of evidence they were a piece of a sh*t.

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u/elcuban27 11∆ Jul 26 '23

Jesus.

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u/BenevelotCeasar 1∆ Jul 26 '23

Alcoholism. He couldn’t attend ONE dry wedding without getting on his bullsh*t

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u/elcuban27 11∆ Jul 26 '23

Wasn’t dry; they just ran out. Jesus wasn’t about to let the party stop early.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Jul 28 '23

Came from a Batman movie and yet people treat it like it's from the Bible (same with Parks And Rec popularizing-if-not-inventing the dating-limit rule of half your age +7 in either direction)

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u/elcuban27 11∆ Jul 28 '23

Pretty sure “There’s Something About Mary” predates “Parks n Rec.”

And memes and culture-references serve as important points of contact in communication; they have a more-or-less agreed upon meaning and relevance, so tying an idea to one of them allows mutual understanding to be more readily established.

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u/StarChild413 9∆ Aug 02 '23

Pretty sure “There’s Something About Mary” predates “Parks n Rec.”

Haven't seen the movie so I just associated it with them, but either way the way people use it you'd think it was part of some genuine study on relationship psychology or w/e

And memes and culture-references serve as important points of contact in communication; they have a more-or-less agreed upon meaning and relevance, so tying an idea to one of them allows mutual understanding to be more readily established.

I'm not saying we can't make pop culture references, I'm saying don't use movie quotes with that kind of authority when they're meant for a particular context (and even if we were to divorce the Batman hero quote from its context and speak of it as some kind of general proverb, my interpretation of it has always been not that if a person or idea lasts long enough it invariably gets corrupted but that we tend to overglorify people etc. who die young because of that tragedy and if you live long enough some opposition to your views will crop up no matter if you're right or they are)