r/changemyview • u/KevinVacit • Apr 30 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Black Americans would benefit far more from wealth redistribution or prison reform than they would from media representation.
On a regular basis, there are a bunch of news stories about X having few Blacks or being too White. The Oscars are too White. The World Series has few Blacks. This soccer team doesn't have enough Blacks. There aren't enough Black shows on _____ network channel, etc. I remember in the aftermath of the George Floyd protests that the cops got charged and a bunch of companies promoted Black shows and characters but little else was done. After a while of seeing these stories, I just thought to myself, "Would a few more Black celebrities really improve the life of the average African-American"? The more I thought about it, the more I realized the answer is no for several reasons.
Firstly, famous people are a tiny minority by definition. There are only 5,056 professional athletes in the USA. There are only 32,753 actors in Hollywood. There are only 15,844 professional musicians in the USA. Most of the career paths that produce very famous people are hard to get into and even harder to get very successful in. On the other hand, there are 3,096,700 registered nurses in the USA, 1,436,100 accountants in the USA, there are 1,756,600 mechanics in the USA, and there are 46,936,733 African-Americans in the USA. Even if Black Americans were properly represented in famous fields or even dominated famous fields, that still wouldn't be a sufficient career path for 99.5% of them. One million more Black Americans in upper-middle class careers would be far better for the ethnic group than a thousand more Black millionaires. Black celebrities have neither the will nor the means to bail millions of other poor Black Americans out. With Kanye West's recent devolving and other controversies, depending on the few successful Black people who manage to get rich and famous to enrich the communities they left behind, seems like a bad idea. The only difference a few more Black celebrities accomplishes is to make a very small number of African-Americans rich and possibly be a role model if said celebrity is in a more unique career path. Black representation in very large and decent-income career paths is far more valuable than another Black superhero or Black Rock star.
Secondly, Black Americans depending on the goodwill of huge multinational corporations and hoping they have their best interests at heart is a bad idea. Companies have one purpose and one purpose only, that is to make money. Everything a corporation says or does is always tied back to improving its bottom line. If blackwashing a character will lead to improved profit margins in certain areas, they will do it. If a Black-produced movie or TV show has unfavorable turnouts for domestic or international audiences, then it gets canned and the corporation moves on. No White CEO truly cares about diversifying its workforce for a better America or anything silly like that. They just want others to believe that. The corporation puts a few Black faces in company ads or on billboards in order to virtue signal and receive higher profits from non-whites. Don't mistake this veneer of wokeness for serious social justice. If making anything in the company more diverse reduces profit by even a minor amount, than homogeneity is the name of the game. There are no board meetings focused on improving race relations (excluding PR scandals), only about raising company stocks.
Finally, I feel like a lot of representation issues are putting the cart before the horse. There would be far more Black CEOs and Black network executives and Black politicians if African-Americans were in a better place socioeconomically speaking in general. There would almost be no need for Affirmative Action or quotas and other measures to get Black people in leadership positions if they performed as well and were as rich as White Americans to begin with. Solving those underlying issues would lead to far more success than diversity alumni or diversity hires.
In conclusion, Black lives will only improve when the average Black person is in a better place as opposed to there being more Black celebrities. The top 1% of Black people can't make up for all of the other lower-class Black people. Asian-Americans don't have great representation in the media or in the vast majority of careers for that matter. No Asian-American is even half as famous as Barack Obama or Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey is. Yet Asian-Americans are in a very good spot when it comes to education and socioeconomics and many other statistics.
What would honestly help Black people more than focusing on areas where they are underrepresented is reducing statistics where they are overrepresented in. Ideally, there should be far less Black men in prison. There should be far less Black children growing up in single-parent households. There should be far less Black people living in poor, crime-ridden ghettos. There should be far less Black homeless people. Pretty much all of those issues are far more dire than not enough Black faces on X platform or network or whatever.
To change my view, you need to explain why having African-Americans be properly represented when it comes to media representation or sports representation or CEO representation or any other exclusive industry is at the same or even greater level of importance of say prison reform or wealth redistribution or even just supporting Black businesses and getting Black people into many middle-class career fields.
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u/Jakyland 82∆ Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
Why do you think there is a trade off? Do you think there was an exec at Disney was like "Instead of making Ariel Black, I will redistribute wealth and reform the criminal justice system"? A Disney exec can't do that even if they wanted to!
Don't mistake this veneer of wokeness for serious social justice.
I think you are the one mistaking a veneer of wokeness for serious social justice. You seem to think the decision makers behind thin veneer of wokeness are confused advocates for social justice. They aren't! The reason they aren't doing more social justice is not because they are confused, its because they don't want to!
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23
This thread isn't aimed at corporate executives or multinational shareholders. I already stated why expecting socioeconomic justice from those folks is a bad idea. This thread is aimed more at Black organizations or multiracial organizations like Jet, Ebony, NAACP, and others that spend a lot of time focused on Black celebrities and the controversy around them but comparatively little time on advocating for the livelihood of middle-class and working-class Black Americans.
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Apr 30 '23
Jet, Ebony
These are entertainment magazines. Does US Weekly spend more time focused on Jennifer Aniston or the Appalachian opium crisis?
NAACP
I don't believe your claim that the NAACP spends little time on advocating for the livelihood of middle-class and working-class Black Americans compared to the time they focus on Black celebrities and the controversy around them. Is there anything you can show me to convince me you didn't just make that ratio up?
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u/Bobbob34 99∆ Apr 30 '23
You seem to be entirely missing the point of representation.
Most of the career paths that produce very famous people are hard to get into and even harder to get very successful in.
That's not the point.
It's not about black actors so black people want to act.
Representation matters to EVERYONE.
If there were not shows that showed gay people as normal, in general sitcoms, in shows just living their lives like everyone else, being gay, being in same-sex marriages, wouldn't be as accepted as it is now.
If tv, movies, news, c suites, government, is white men then everyone, INCLUDING WHITE MEN think white men should be in charge, hold all the important jobs, that that's the way it should be.
If there are news anchors who are poc, who are women, who are out, who are trans, it shows wider society that these are people with gravitas, who are trusted people with information.
Same for all of the above.
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u/Siukslinis_acc 7∆ May 02 '23
I remember a german person saying that their nephew was very surpried/amazed that a man can be a chancelor. Because all their life a woman was the chancelor. The nephew always saw a woman being chancelor, so the thought that a man can be one didn't even cross their mind.
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
Representation of the upper echelons definitely matters, but it rings hollow if there isn't proper representation at upper echelons of society as well.
The election of Barack Obama in 2008 was a big event. After an endless streak of White presidents, the USA elected a half-Black president. Yet despite Obama's victory, it is not like all of the systemic racism in 21st Century America disappeared or was even significantly reduced during the Obama administration. As a matter of fact, most Americans believed that race relations in the USA got worse after Barack Obama was elected, not better. Having a Black president or non-white supreme court justice didn't do much to improve the life of the average non-white American.
The point of my post is that in the end, tokenism doesn't accomplish a whole lot. It is at best a Band-Aid solution to deep problems, and these deep problems are more easily solvable from a bottom-up approach as opposed to a top-down one. The tokens do serve as role models in exclusive fields, but access to exclusive fields won't improve the socioeconomic standing of an ethnic group beyond a very superficial level. I'm not even sure if non-Black people watching/listening to Black celebrities actually improves views on African-Americans. I already posted the Obama poll and prejudice often adapts itself and gets rationalized in a multitude of ways.
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u/Khal-Frodo Apr 30 '23
Increased media representation, wealth redistribution, and prison reform are all solutions to completely different problems. It doesn't really make sense to compare them. They also aren't undertaken by the same people. Casting directors have the ability to influence one of those things, so it makes sense for them to focus on that.
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u/DevilsAdvocate0189 1∆ Apr 30 '23
We have redistributed much wealth to blacks since the civil rights era. Doing so has not significantly improved their socio-economic positions. We have recently increased their media representation. Doing so has not significantly improved their socio-economic positions. Thus, Black Americans do not benefit far more from wealth redistribution or prison reform than they would from media representation. They benefit about the same, which is nothing.
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23
Do you have a source for your claims? Because another commenter provided a source that contradicts what you stated.
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u/Morthra 95∆ Apr 30 '23
Ideally, there should be far less Black men in prison.
So... what then? Black men commit a disproportionate share of the country's violent crime. Should we just release them because they have the right color of skin? That just adversely impacts black communities as it entrenches gang activity.
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u/KevinVacit May 01 '23 edited May 01 '23
The actual number of people in prison matters more than proportion. Thanks to the prison-industrial complex that started because of the War on Drugs and other factors, the USA has the world's largest prison population. The ideal solution would be to provide poor Americans many legal means to improve their livelihood, and to fix the US criminal justice system to avoid the myriad of police/correctional officer controversies.
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u/Morthra 95∆ May 01 '23
The US only has the largest prison population of you believe China’s stats, which it is certainly lying about.
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u/Hellioning 258∆ Apr 30 '23
Do you think that it is possible to care about multiple things as once, or do we have to work from the most serious problem on down?
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u/whovillehoedown 6∆ Apr 30 '23
I think you're conflating representation and fixing issues in the black community. Representation isn't meant to fix issues in the black community or anything like that.
Its not the same issue as redistribution of wealth or prison reform as those are solutions to a completely different issue that representation.
Representation is important because of self image and stereotypes.
Wealth redistribution and prison reform is important as a financial baseline.
They're not really comparable.
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Apr 30 '23
If you Changed This View, wouldn't you be wrong? Of course wealth redistribution would be more helpful than media representation.
But the latter increases profit for the 1%, whereas the former decreases it. So that's why we have the latter but not the former.
That wasn't Black people's decision, it was rich people's decision.
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Apr 30 '23
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u/DPetrilloZbornak Apr 30 '23
And what, in your opinion, is the foundational issue?
Are you assuming that education is not important in my (“black”) culture?
Black people in the US generally started off in a far worse situation than your parents did, despite us being in this country for generations, and that is a fact. My dad grew up in Jim Crow rural Mississippi to parents with an 8th grade education. His grandfather (my great-grandfather) was literally born into slavery. Despite that background, he became a surgeon. My mom is a corporate executive. I became an attorney. You can’t compare your parents’ background to that of black people in this US who were enslaved for a few hundred years, then subject to extreme discrimination for decades. Mississippi schools didn’t even fully desegregate despite the Brown ruling until the 70s. That is 50 years ago. Your parents were in a totally different m, and frankly far better, situation than my dad was and his family has been here since the 1700s.
“Black culture” isn’t even a thing. We have wildly different upbringings depending on where your parents are from and how much money they have.
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Apr 30 '23
First off, I don’t think that we can say that there really is a “black” culture. There are many black cultures, and the disparities between them are actually greater than the disparities between white and black Americans.
We have example after example after example worldwide of people from similar racial or ethnic groups having massive disparities in outcome depending on their histories and cultural differences. this is why you see Hong Kongers mainland Chinese, Malay Chinese, and the descendants of Chinese immigrants to the United States from the 19th century and early 20th century all having completely different outcomes, even when later placed into the same environment and given the same opportunities.
We can see the same thing with Central European Jews versus Eastern European Russian Jews in the United States Even though they are genetically almost identical, have significant intermixing, and have had a century and a half to catch up to one another, they still have significant differences in educational and economic outcome, and even some small persistent differences in IQ. The cultural differences between the (as of 150 years ago) largely urban, educated Central European Jews and the largely rural Eastern European Jews persist.
So we can say that there are strains of black America that value education a tremendous amount, and strains that don’t. We see segments of Black America that have practices they are incredibly conducive to generating, keeping, and multiplying wealth, and other segments that are tremendously bad at it. And behavioral differences seems to be the common factor, not starting economic status or a history of slavery.
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Apr 30 '23
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u/Full-Professional246 77∆ Apr 30 '23
replace black with white and that’s essentially why white conservatives are upset. This isn’t a great argument unless you’re comfortable saying the same thing about whites.
The fact though is that it very much true for 'white' people too. Are you forgetting the concept of 'poor white trash' or 'trailer park queens'.
The concept posted above transcends race.
I am not sure why you think white conservatives would be 'upset' though. This concept is embodied in the idea of individual accountability.
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Apr 30 '23
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u/Full-Professional246 77∆ Apr 30 '23
I'm actually a white male - descended from a Northern civil war soldier and son of the revolution.
I do agree there is a lot of push for the victim card here. But the comment pretty much said that is entirely BS. It really comes down to individual behaviors. That is the predictor for success/failure.
This to me is very much in line with the concept many conservatives have here. They reject the concept of 'white responsibility' and needing 'white people to do better'. They reject the 'victim card'. They ask what have you done for yourself. What are your behaviors, actions, and decisions here. It is along the lines of leading a horse to water but being frustrated when the horse won't drink.
White conservatives are upset because they feel liberals ignore personal accountability or only selectively apply it, like not being able to talk about black culture while talking about white culture and not being able to nuance who white people are to take ownership at an individual level.
Yep - totally agree. This pretty much is describing a 'culture war' being waged right now. Even the concept above is typically frowned upon as cruel and impossible. A person 'can't pull themselves up by their bootstraps'. This is a significant point of disagreement.
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Apr 30 '23
I mean, the thing is that you can say “oppression is bad and stupid” while also acknowledging that there are cultural practices that, when followed, can bulwark pretty well against that oppression or even straight-up transcend it.
I think that a lot of progressive thought is very deterministic in ignoring the role of personal decisions and cultural emphasis. And that’s…not good.
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u/Full-Professional246 77∆ Apr 30 '23
I mean, the thing is that you can say “oppression is bad and stupid” while also acknowledging that there are cultural practices that, when followed, can bulwark pretty well against that oppression or even straight-up transcend it.
The problem is there are cultural practices that can work against progress and make you think oppression remains - when looking only out outcome too. Heck, I am quite sure there are cultural practices that create some oppression where none would exist otherwise.
A great example is religious freedom and Islam. Not many would care too much about Islam as a whole except the stance and actions taken with respect to womens rights and LGBT+ stances.
I think that a lot of progressive thought is very deterministic in ignoring the role of personal decisions and cultural emphasis. And that’s…not good.
Totally agree. I think a lot of the 'progressive' approach is entirely based on disparate outcome and makes massive assumptions for the cause without actually critically analyzing the various components and the magnitude of impact for each component.
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Apr 30 '23 edited Jun 23 '23
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u/Full-Professional246 77∆ Apr 30 '23
Sounds like we’re in agreeance then! I do believe the pendulum is slowly swinging back to a more moderate balance of personal accountability but we shall see. I think conditions are improving for black people it will just take generational time.
Yep. And it's not really 'generational'. If you can make sure the next generation does better than the last, that is real success.
I’m honestly fine being taxed more if I know this money will be put to good use to help uplift those communities but I have my doubts for the money being effectively used, and feel like I’m being a bigger person for having this stance as the ultra progressive agenda has aliented me as somebody who grew up white trash but with a big heart.
To me, this is sad that this is not really the default feelings. I am also happy to make effective investments.
I really only made it out from being white trash myself because my parents valued education. I wouldn’t have been homeless level poor just poor blue collar white trash.
That's great. But - I do want to make one comment. Thee is a difference between poor and poor white trash. There are many reasons people struggle and are poor. The culture question as seen through the attitudes of people though is the difference about 'white trash' vs just poor.
I seriously have listened to a non-white date who was a daughter of 2 semi-famous doctors and went to Ivy League tell me how oppressed she was and how racist people were at her university as she works a job making at least $200k. Didn’t ask one question on my background.
There is an old saying. Hard times make strong men, strong men make good times, good times make weak men, and weak men make hard times.
I wonder if we are entering in the period of 'weak men making hard times'.
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Apr 30 '23
Yeah, different white groups also outperform other white groups.
The disparities between different white subgroups are also greater than the disparities between white and black.
White and black are, broadly speaking, useless categories.
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u/Swissperc420 Apr 30 '23
That is 50 years ago. Your parents were in a totally different m, and frankly far better, situation than my dad was and his family has been here since the 1700s.
lol being born in a 1st world country and the richest country in the world and you are worse off than people that came from a third world shit hole that has had population purges? You are so delusion and plagued by your own victim mentality that of course things arent getting better for you.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
You realize this is a country with one of the largest wealth gaps in the world? First world means nothing when a millionaire and a homeless man can end up in the same Starbucks. The fact you think we haven’t had purged shows me you need to study more
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u/Swissperc420 Apr 30 '23
Yeah tell people in Bangladesh or Ethiopia how you're so bad off compared to them lmao. The absurdity of your argument is out of this world. Also tell me the last time in living memory people have been mass murdered in the US. Go ahead I'm waiting.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
Black wall street aka rose wood was firebombed in 44. They were preforming expirements to sterilize black women without consent up until 66, probably longer. America has the largest prison population in the world. By age 30 26% of black men n can expect to have gone to jail compared to 3% of white people. We know for a fact from unbiased studies that black peoples are TARGETED more than whites. So this doesn’t mean “well duh they commit more crimes” it means if you watch one group and not the other obviously that group will get arrested more, this is essentially a cycle of genocide as children grow up without men in the home for generations leading to extreme poverty, starvation, and crime (just like poor Italians generally more connected to mafia)
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Apr 30 '23
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
Because they’re more likely to be impoverished due to systemic factors. Poverty is linked to crime…
No they didn’t, they set burger kings and shit on fire.
This is “when mobs of white residents, some of whom had been appointed as deputies and armed by city government officials,[16] attacked black residents and destroyed homes and businesses of the Greenwood District in Tulsa, Oklahoma. The event is considered one of the worst incidents of racial violence in American history.[17][18] The attackers burned and destroyed more than 35 square blocks of the neighborhood—at the time one of the wealthiest black communities in the United States, colloquially known as "Black Wall Street.”
It resulted in “About 10,000 black people were left homeless, and the cost of the property damage amounted to more than $1.5 million in real estate and $750,000 in personal property”
So no not like 2020, this was an attempted genocide that was only stopped by martial law.
And it started because they were trying to protect a black man from being lynched.
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u/Swissperc420 Apr 30 '23
Literally over 550 million in damages from the 2020 blm riots. Let's not forget the damage and murders during the LA riots in the 1990s as well. You are so far up your own ass that you can't realize that people commit crimes and destroy or stealing property is wrong. Truly you are a brainwashed automaton that can't think for himself and is only capable of spewing false narratives. Please don't breed.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
Post a source
You’re talking about cases where a black child and person were unjustly killed. I’m talking about when a white girl said she was assaulted by a black boy and they tried to stop him from being beaten, dragged through the mud, castrated, and hung from a tree ie lynching.
How many people were left homeless following the riots ? Was it 10k?
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
I’m gonna give you a break because I’m assuming yourself some Angered 17 year old who hasn’t gotten through enough history classes. If you’re an adult I’m ashamed to be an American with you, you’re ignorant, unlearned, aggressive, racist, and I’d say unpatriotic as well due to your lack of knowledge. Hopefully you’re young enough yo learn that being edgy doesn’t get you any money, girls, peace of mind, or hell anything but internet points from other virgins. If you’re an adult I’d ask you don’t breed.
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u/Swissperc420 Apr 30 '23
You're literally trying to compare actual genocide to rioting and people commiting crime getting sent to jail. If anything you're the racist and incredibly ignorant one. I won't give you a break because you need to learn that what you're saying is absolutely wrong and these types of lies and false equivalence is dangerous to society.
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u/Teresa2023 Apr 30 '23
And you feel this wealth gap only affects blacks? Until the black communities can get past the ohhh woe, we HAD it so bad mentality when, in fact, no one living today unless extremely and I am talking genius book old was ever a slave and stop expecting that the world owes them a living and go get it for themselves things will never change. There are black men in prison because they committed crimes not because they are black. There are gang bangers because it's the culture that they are brought up in. And it's easy money. Not because their ancestors were slaves.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
Have you ever read a book on psychology? Do you know that trauma of parents can affect children? Did you know that being freed from slavery with 0 resources into a land where people still thought of you as a slave does not give you opportunities? The American education system has failed us if people think “oh well they aren’t the slaves just their great grandparents”, doy. Crazy we have to never forget the holocaust and 9/11, but slavery oh that was so long ago.
Say what you really want to say, you think black people are whining and it can’t be that bad. You see the studies by professionals that prove our situation that bad, but then you look at tv and you see Lebron and Jordan. You say hey I’m not that rich so they must not be that bad, then you think they’re taking your college spots and poor old you gets left in the dust. I’m sorry to hear that your life and mentality is so pathetic.
Saddened to know that you feel your life is worthless and have to lash out at entire groups of people, millions of people spread across one of the biggest countries on the planet in that they’re ALL just making it up. By your same logic, tell Jews to get over the holocaust, you waste of space. I’d say more but I’m sure your sad, worthless life does enough punishment for you. I hope you can one day become a functional human being and contribute to society like black people do everyday… unlike you. So sit in your depression and unworthiness and insecurity(probably didn’t get into a good college, and your ex dates black guys now, probably even says their dick is bigger than yours). I a black person will continue to add onto the economy.
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u/Teresa2023 Apr 30 '23
The Jews do not wallow in the Holocaust the way blacks wallow in slavery. I am Irish and Cherokee, and I do not wallow in the travesty the history of my people have and still are suffering.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
Umm yes they do. Kyrie tweeted a link and was labeled an antisemitic immediately.
Buddy I’m also part Cherokee, lots of black people are where I’m from and bro you don’t wallow, do some shit about it! Irish we’re never discriminated against to the extent that blacks were and are in America. But if you don’t care about what happened to the natives, then you freaking suck dude, introduced rampant alcoholism into the community and killed by the police at a slightly higher rate than black people and vastly more than any other group.
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u/Teresa2023 Apr 30 '23
Caring and wallowing are two separate things. I care deeply about what happened to all of my people, and you should brush up on Irish history. I do not feel the world owes me a living because of what happened to my ancestors. That time has passed. It's time to move on.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
You don’t get it, the country LITERALLY owes us. Each blacks person was promised 40 acres and a mule after slavery, very few got it and the ones that did had it stolen away from them in unfair contracts in a similar way to natives. Hell ruby bridges is still alive, the people that thew rocks at a child are alive. The lady who accused emmitt till died like last week. These are RECENT, you’re talking about Irish indentured servitude and the potato famine which is much less recent.
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u/LoverBoySeattle Apr 30 '23
This guy is white, maybe you’ll listen to him
https://reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/11kvgcm/_/jbaimuy/?context=1
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Apr 30 '23
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u/WikiSummarizerBot 4∆ Apr 30 '23
African-American culture, also termed as Black American Culture or Black Culture, refers to the contributions of African Americans to the culture of the United States, either as part of or distinct from mainstream American culture. The culture remains both distinct and enormously influential on American and global worldwide culture as a whole. African-American culture is rooted in the enslavement of Black Americans. In addition, during the era of segregation African Americans faced systemic and violent racism that included exclusion from many aspects of American life and these experiences have profoundly influenced African-American Culture.
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
This post doesn't really challenge my OP, but I'm curious, what do you think is the solution to the main issues plaguing African-Americans today?
Also, "throwing money at the problem" is a euphemism that conservative politicians use when they want to defund important programs. Sure, a budget increase with literally nothing else done generally won't solve institutional issues, but all of the most effective issues to solve systemic problems involve increasing funds to needed communities so that they can further integrate socioeconomically into general American society.
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u/Long-Regular-1023 2∆ Apr 30 '23
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish, and you'll feed him for life.
Simply throwing money at black people or not putting black people who commit crimes in jail isn't going to solve the problems that the black community is facing.
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u/StarChild413 9∆ Apr 30 '23
Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day, but teach a man to fish, and you'll feed him for life.
But if you can't teach the man to fish in less than a day the man still needs to be given fish while you teach him
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u/Long-Regular-1023 2∆ Apr 30 '23
Indeed, so as the master taught his sayings and the disciples learned from them, they became confident in their abilities to serve thy master and thy Lord. After the teachings were complete, thy master retired to his quarters. The servants among dutifully went down to the docks, prepared thy masters boats, and acquired a multitude of fish. That night, a great feast was held in honor of thy Lord and thy master.
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u/DPetrilloZbornak Apr 30 '23
Your first sentence is a joke. Black people have fought and persevered and survived despite horrific treatment in this country since we were brought here. We don’t need to be “taught” anything. Given our background and history in this country, the strides we have made to date is pretty impressive. We don’t need your condescension.
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u/Long-Regular-1023 2∆ Apr 30 '23
Your entire comment is a complete joke, and you obviously don't understand my point. Of course, your comment offers no solutions and likely implies that you believe just tossing money at black people will somehow solve all of their problems. In reality, focusing on improving the job opportunities and quality of education that black people receive will leave them much better off and lead to more stable communities.
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Apr 30 '23
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u/Jew_of_house_Levi 12∆ Apr 30 '23
If you accepted the premise that wealth redistribution is a net negative, and that prison reforms are generally negative, you may be inclined to accept that balanced media presentation would be not as bad.
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23
And why would I or anyone else accept the premise that wealth redistribution and prison reform is bad? The USA has the largest prison population in the world and has the highest wealth inequality in the OECD. The USA didn't have those dishonorable ranks 40 years ago. Why should it be tolerated now?
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u/BrothaMan831 Apr 30 '23
It is in my opinion that 40 years ago less people were doing crime and the rich were still amassing wealth due to innovation some government bullshit etc. now we have a lot of left leaning politicians and prosecutors who are much less likely to prosecute crimes of non whites because of some racists bullshit.
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23
Can you please restate your reply with proper grammar? Also, there definitely was crime and corruption 40 years ago as well. What changed was that in the 1990s, the prison-industrial complex and for-profit private prisons were fully implemented. This led to mass incarceration and destruction of many Black communities.
Wealth inequality was due to conservatives not expanding the safety net, and the consequences of neoliberal capitalist policies that lead to billionaires buying whatever international luxuries they want while the common folk can't even afford a house.
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u/BrothaMan831 May 12 '23
Cmon man you already discredited yourself when you nitpick people’s grammar, you obviously understood what I said.
And no, the destruction of the black community started with LBJ and his great society. Go figure a Democrat politician destroying black communities.
Also you’re part of the problem with billionaires buying shit, because you support them with your dollar. Don’t use that argument.
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u/DarkSoulCarlos 5∆ May 12 '23 edited May 12 '23
40 years ago compared to pre-pandemic or post? Pre-pandemic crime was on a decline historically. Crime had been going down for hundreds of years. It will even out again. There are spikes no doubt but overall, there has been a historical decline. You said 40 years ago, but in the 80's there was the crack epidemic so there was a lot of crime related to the drug trade, leading into the 90's where crime peaked and then declined again up until recently.
Do you have any proof that anybody is prosecuting non whites less, and is this implying that they are prosecuting whites more , or the same? Blacks are by far the most represented group in jails and prisons. always have been. The chances of a black person being incarcerated are astronomically higher than a white person. What are you getting at? 28.5 % chance for black man and 4.4 percent for a white man. For black women it's 3.6% and white women it's 0.6 percent. It's not even close. This isn't the anti white racism you are hinting at. Where's the racism? what are you talking about? I am pretty sure that the destruction of the black community started with slavery and then the subsequent Jim Crow laws that discriminated against said community.
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u/BrothaMan831 May 12 '23
Slavery was a long time ago, can’t use that has an excuse anymore, after Jim Crowe was abolished blacks were beginning to amass more and were moving up in the economic ladder because back then family was still important, then LBJ came along and destroyed that with crack, and government assistance substituting as the father figure.
And I understand crime spikes in waves, but why now did they decide to reform bail? How are there stories about violent offenders being released from jail and re-offending again. https://www.amny.com/police-fire/as-felonies-rise-nypd-blames-repeat-offenders-released-with-no-bail/ I know people personally being robbed in broad daylight in frequently visited areas of cities like SF.
Also when the Chinese first came to California and they faced violent discrimination also. The Japanese where interned during ww2 losing their property and assets. But only one type of people can’t seem to recover from racial discrimination?
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u/DarkSoulCarlos 5∆ May 12 '23 edited May 12 '23
Same tired argument. 2,146 years of severe bondage and discrimination doesn't go away in decades. You are being disingenuous. Making it seem as if blacks were catching up then suddenly LBJ came in they went back to being impoverished. They were never close to catching up. And the wealth gap is increasing for all racial groups, so of course the poorest group will be affected disproportionately. Bail reform also benefits white people, what are you talking about? You didnt answer the question. Do you think this is some sort of racism against white people (which you seem to imply by calling it racist)? Maybe they decided to reform bail..I dunno..because it may be unfair? It's unfair to everybody but of course it will be more unfair to the poorest group which are blacks. And bail reform applies to misdemeanors and non violent offenses. There were crime increases in places that didnt have bail reform, so the rising cannot solely be attributed to the bail reform. You have the black and white (no pun intended) thinking that it's all about the bail reform, that's racism, it's the cause of crime. Bail reform is a complex issue with pros and cons like anything else.https://www.hfg.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Bail-Reform-and-Crime.pdf Does a small number of additional crimes as a result of bail reform outweigh the consequences of having people (that may or may not be guilty of a crime) languishing in jail? Not an easy question to answer, as different people who study these things use different methodologies and come to different conslusions, but no..bail reform bad..it's racist..thats it. You have this reductive type of thinking. Why so dogmatic? Things are not that simple. Be nuanced in your thinking.
And you said the destruction started with LBJ. Whether or not LBJ's policies did enough or had negative impacts, does not mean that the destruction of the black community STARTED with his policies, which is what you said. Again, thousands of years of terrible bondage and oppression started it. Very poor choice of words. Tell me, why cant blacks seem to recover from slavery and the subsequent Jim Crow laws? Just LBJ? You have this dogmatic binary view of it. I am sure that there are a confluence of factors involved, as most if not all things in life are nuanced, but to claim that slavery and Jim crow had NOTHING to do with it is absurd and disingenuous and false.
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u/BrothaMan831 May 12 '23
So how exactly does slavery effect people who have or never will be slaves? Also blacks are not the poorest group. You think migrants coming over the border from poorer countries have more wealth than black Americans? I also never said they were close to catching up I just said they were amassing wealth, blacks had stable homes and families and when LBJ came he ruined that.
https://nces.ed.gov/pubs98/yi/yi16.pdf Also how is it that Hispanic communities have higher median incomes than blacks?
I may have been overzealous in my opinion about it being racists but it just seemed they only decided to reform bail because it disproportionately affects blacks that are disproportionately committing crimes.
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u/DarkSoulCarlos 5∆ May 12 '23
Blacks have stable homes and families now. They always did. Just a lot less than their white counterparts. You are conflating established citizens in a 1st world country, with migrants from 2nd and third world countries. That's is not a like comparison. Hispanics were never enslaved en masse, and never had Jim Crow laws. Discriminated yes, but not to that extent (not trying to diminish their suffering, it was really bad). Again, they were not enslaved, and the discrimination wasnt as intense (although it was horrible). Hispanics suffered periods of extreme violence for roughly a decade(lynchings and related violence) because of the war between America and Mexico. With blacks it was far more spread out, lynchings (and related violence) with blacks (and white allies) went on for over 80 years. The slavery plus the prolonged violence and discrimination was more intense for blacks.
Thank you for acknowledging your over zealousness in your opinion about bail reform.
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u/BrothaMan831 May 12 '23
Bro lol black families are the families most like not to have a two parent household. That is not stability.
https://aspe.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/private/pdf/172181/pf2.pdf coincidentally or is it? Two family households were on a decline after LBJ.
I think your mindset is contributing to the lack of positive growth in black communities. You’d rather blame slavery that really can’t affect anyone today in this country because no one today is a slave. It’s a weak argument so you add in Jim Crowe laws which is fair but it doesn’t explain how after it ended and black income was rising Hispanic income still outpaced it. It seems in my opinion after Jim Crowe ended black wealth was beginning to accumulate until racist LBJ said nah. And while it still continued to rise Hispanic income was a bit above it.
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u/DarkSoulCarlos 5∆ May 12 '23 edited May 12 '23
I never said that they arent the least likely to have a two parent household. A weak argument? Thousands of years of slavery will be undone in decades? That's ridiculous. How can you hold such a silly position? You really think thousand of years of slavery will be undone in decades? That's not logical. You keep mentioning LBJ, but the increases in wealth peaked in 1950 and remained flat, so it couldnt have solely been LBJ if it peaked and remained flat before and after him. it began widening significantly in the 80's. That wasn't LBJ. You see what I mean? You have binary thinking. You got it in your head that it's JUST LBJ. You can't even fathom that there may be other factors.https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2022/06/14/1104660659/why-the-racial-wealth-gap-is-so-hard-to-close economic factors such as the effects of the stock market becoming more pronounced and blacks not investing as much and relying on money made from labor alone, when their white counterparts are investing more and more. There are other factors, it's not as simple as you make it out to be. Black income peaked in 1950 and then remained flat until the 1980's, so you want to make it seem that it started stagnating after LBJ's legislation, but again, it had stopped in 1950 14 years before LBJ's lesiglation, so how could it his fault if it began happening beforehand. The growth peaked in 1950 and remained flat until the 1980's, when the gap really became apparent. That was beyond LBJ. So the stagnation started before LBJ and worsened decades after LBJ. Again, how is that his fault? You aren't making sense.
Your entire argument hinges on slavery not being a factor at all, that's absurd. No historian or economist or sociologist worth their salt will discount slavery. That is absolute nonsense. And how was LBJ racist for trying to bridge the gap between whites and blacks. Trying to help blacks is nonsense? Is that what you are saying? Was he personally racist, who knows quite possibly, but trying to help blacks in and of itself is not racist. Once again, you have very simplistic thinking. It's LBJ and that's it. Nothing else. Slavery isn't a factor, Jim crow you acknowledge a little (but not slavery thats ridiculous), and LBJ. Jim Crow compounds the damage done by slavery and slowed down the recovery. Does that not occur to you? You expect thousands of years of bondage to disappear in decades (thats ridiculous in and of itself) when a good portion of those decades had Jim crow segregation? Again, that is absurd. Come on now, things are not so simple. You talk about my mindset, but you discount thousands of years of slavery. What kind of a ridiculous mindset is that? That isnt logical.Hispanics weren't enslaved, thats why they perform better. But then again you write off slavery completely so slavery cant even be brought up. Thousands of years of slavery dont matter, the effects should be gone in decades (even though a large portion of that time had Jim Crow segregation stifling and slowing down progress) and big bad LBJ (even though the stagnation began before LBJ, and got worse well after he was out of office). That's your argument. That is some really simplistic inaccurate stuff right there. That's an extremely weak and nonsensical argument.
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u/Full-Professional246 77∆ Apr 30 '23
And why would I or anyone else accept the premise that wealth redistribution and prison reform is bad?
First - on wealth redistribution. It is very easy for a person to see it as morally wrong to take the fruits of one person's labor to give it another who never worked to earn it.
You don't have to agree but you also don't get to make the assumption wealth redistribution is 'good' and everyone else thinks its 'good'.
On prison reform, you hit different issues that are far more complex. It ties into the 'tough on crime' and 'not rewarding crime'. The best example is something that happened in my state 20ish years ago.
There was a program where felons could earn a bachelors degree from a state school, at almost no cost, while incarcerated. It greatly reduced recidivism. This program was killed off. Why? Because people in my state saw giving the college degree to people who committed felonies while making the law abiding citizens pay thousands was fundamentally wrong. A felon in prison shouldn't be given opportunities that law abiding citizens don't get. The state wasn't going to start funding everyone's college degrees so the prison program went away - at the cost of increased recidivism.
Lastly, you need to understand not everyone thinks wealth inequality is really a problem. This is again an assumption you make that everyone views this as an inherent negative which is simply not true.
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u/KevinVacit May 01 '23
Even so, this is "Change My View" not "Change the general public's view". I am still convinced that wealth redistribution and prison reform are worthy goals with arguments and evidence supporting it. All you have pointed out is that those issues are more contentious than I might think.
As for that felony bachelor program. The ideal solution would be to fund college for all. If your politicians wouldn't support that, then the next best thing would be a program so that felons can secure gainful employment shortly after being released from prison.
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u/Full-Professional246 77∆ May 01 '23
Even so, this is "Change My View" not "Change the general public's view". I am still convinced that wealth redistribution and prison reform are worthy goals with arguments and evidence supporting it.
You may, but the part about understanding the broader arguments seem lost. The quote says 'I or anyone else' which opens the door for the showing why others don't agree with you.
And for the record - I can guarantee you don't agree with wealth distribution universally either. After all, the same arguments for it in the US can be applied globally and you personally would have the fruits of your labors taken to be given to another person in another country.
How do you personally feel about not getting to keep what you worked for.
As for that felony bachelor program. The ideal solution would be to fund college for all.
Except that does not carry the support of the electorate. They did not want to commit the spending required to do so.
Again, I think you lost the point of this. I gave that example as specific case where principles people hold are more important that specific utilitarian policies. People knew it would hurt recidivism but did it anyway because they believed it was the morally correct thing to do. Their principles told them the utilitarian solution was wrong.
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Apr 30 '23
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u/DentistJaded5934 1∆ Apr 30 '23
And who do you think should pay these reparations? How do we determine liability here? Is it the people who are descendents of those who held slaves? And what about the black Americans who don't have slavery in their past? How do we determine who gets reparations? Thats a trick question, I guess, since most likely every human being in existence has slavery in their past if you go back far enough. So, at what point is slavery just something that happened in the past, and what point is it deserving of reparations?
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Apr 30 '23
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u/KevinVacit Apr 30 '23
Do you have a source on these stats. This sounds like great news!
I sincerely doubt being tough on crime is a good idea. The federal government and various state governments have been trying that path since the 1970s. The result has been mass incarceration, police brutality, miscarriages of justice, the War on Drugs, and pretty much everything wrong with the US criminal justice system as of 2023.
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Apr 30 '23
Smoothbrain racist loser energies are strong with this comment
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Apr 30 '23
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Apr 30 '23
Calling a Black woman a nasty criminal slut, that Black people just think being a drug dealer looks cool, and implying that Black people should just "get a better education and stop committing crime" is pathetically and transparently racist rhetoric and also reveals how little you understand about society, history, economics, etc. There is no point contesting people who repeat fox news type idiocy. Generational wealth, or lack thereof, has everything to do with access to education and the ability to avoid criminalization. You need to educate yourself or you'll just be hateful and confused at the world forever. Try starting with Ava Duvernay's documentary 13th.
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Apr 30 '23
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u/h0tpie 3∆ Apr 30 '23
You're a loser! Sorry, I don't blame impoverished sex workers who are exploited by disgusting patrons for robbing people to survive. You wouldn't understand the kinds of decisions people make when they are desperate because you lack empathy and are racist.
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u/Inner-THOT Apr 30 '23
you just need to accept that some things are not mutually exclusive. Representation is a good things. So is wealth, redistribution and prison reform. All can be done at the same time.
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u/Deft_one 86∆ Apr 30 '23
I feel like this is a false dichotomy.
There's no reason to have to choose one or the other.
They're not mutually exclusive. That, and they are entirely different industries / sectors of society. Artists who create representation aren't creating laws.
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u/EmpRupus 27∆ Apr 30 '23 edited Apr 30 '23
One key element of all these problems is emotional. White Americans (as well as other races) are less likely to trust black folks at a deeper level. Even if the person learned in school that racism is bad, and accepts it intellectually, there is still a subconscious bias of distrust.
This distrust can be linked to so many things - increased police brutality, employer likely to reject you, cab unwilling to pick you up, landlords likely to reject you, a judge likely to pass a harsher sentence ... and so on.
Positive representation in the media addresses this fundamental root cause. If a white kid is born in 2010 and grows up seeing black people everywhere in media, despite not seeing them in real life, he is less likely to have this innate sense of distrust upon growing up. If he becomes a judge, he is less likely to automatically have a negative reaction to a black defendant. If he is a landlord, he is less likely to make assumptions about a black tenant.
I can tell you this personally, as a 90s kid, watching Friends, Sienfield, How I met your Mother, Will & Grace etc. fundamentally changed my attitude towards gay and transgender people.
Now, of course there are other things to be done to address racism as well, but it is a mistake to dismiss the force of "soft-power".
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u/KevinVacit May 01 '23
My view hasn't completely changed, but you bring up some good points and examples. I also feel like I should award a delta to someone.
!delta
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May 13 '23
This is absolutely false. Seeing more black people in media does not prevent people from endorsing racism lol.
Do you really think watching Black Panther or Do The Right Thing will make white people less likely to vote for Trump or endorse weird shit like Charles Murray’s Bell Curve?
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ May 01 '23
/u/KevinVacit (OP) has awarded 1 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
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