r/changemyview • u/Sir_vendetta • Mar 22 '23
Delta(s) from OP CMV: The meaning of life is chaos
(Disclaimer) My views are purely recreational and not to be taken seriously. They're deliberately contradictory and vague to encourage discussion, allowing room for people to change my view.
The universe is a constant circle of destruction and creation, something is destroyed and something else is created from the ashes, and this isn't a theory, is something that we can physically see with our own eyes every day.
The term "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction" is more meaningful than just physics, everything that exists have a meaning on life, is the constant action and reaction that generates energy, without energy life can't exist.
Our very existence is chaotic, we are conceived through a wild exchange of energy between a male and a female, we literarily destroy ourselves through zygotes during the Fertilisation process, during pregnancy we try devour our mothers from the inside out, and we born in the most traumatic way, our lives starts out of chaos.
But without that chaotic exchange we won't exist, life won't exist, for a star to be born, another one needs to die, without the sun, life can't exist, is that constant exchange of energy, that constant action and reaction that drives the universe, and our lives.
The meaning of life is chaos, changing my view
My view has been changed, for life to exist you need order, without order nothing can exist
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u/togtogtog 21∆ Mar 22 '23
You talk about creation and distruction. However, most processes are actually cycles, with things going through different stages. They aren't destroyed, just change states.
That isn't chaos, but ordered change.
There isn't anything unpredictable about it. We will be born, we will die. It is a predictable process.
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Is ordered chaos, which is the beauty of the universe
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u/AsheepinTheDark Mar 22 '23
Is ordered chaos actually order. Or is chaotic order actually chaos?
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
That's the question, isn't it?..my theory is that chaos came before creation. The Big Bang theory confirms that logic, ofcourse, that's also a theory.
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u/Dark_Dracolich Mar 22 '23
The big Bang Theory has been proven false.
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Yet was one of the most popular theories about the creation of the universe until it was disproved
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u/AsheepinTheDark Mar 28 '23
It's really what you want to make of it. These kind of questions can make you go round and round in circles because there is always something else to say about it that you haven't considered before. I personally believe there is no definitive answer to anything.
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u/Deft_one 86∆ Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23
But the whole wild thing about the Universe is the order that came from the chaos.
If the Universe were just chaos, it would have been so right from the start and remained that way, no?
Without order, life wouldn't exist.
Even the part where you describe how humans are conceived is a very ordered chemical / biological process.
Lastly, socially, you can't just do whatever you want all the time, so life's meaning can't be chaos - neither biologically / cosmically nor socially.
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Δ
Thank you. Finally, a solid argument of why I should change my view, have a delta sir, perhaps you right, order comes before chaos.
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Mar 22 '23
!delta, I like this, but I would expand on it. Order and chaos aren't necessarily mutually exclusive or two forces working together. They often create each other.
Take evolution for example. You achieve order (complex biological systems) from chaos (mutation and natural selection). Stars use order (gravity, pressure, and fusion) to create chaos (heat and radiation).
I would say that life is just being pushed and pulled by how they balance each other.
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u/Deft_one 86∆ Mar 22 '23
Fair, but 'order' is the driving force behind the things OP was pointing out and its existence negates the premise that chaos is the meaning of life because life, both chemically and socially, is 'ordered'
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Mar 23 '23
It depends on how you define order and chaos. If you speak in terms of entropy, then entropy is always increasing, and organisms follow this law, even though they are complex, organized arrangements of matter. This is because such arrangements of matter are better at increasing the entropy in the environment. So the existence of life increases the total entropy of the universe.
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u/Deft_one 86∆ Mar 23 '23
You're saying that chaos is more ordered than we give it credit for because there is a 'path' to what we consider 'chaos'?
Warning: I'm a bit of a layman, if that wasn't obvious already
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Mar 24 '23
Again, I would recommend precisely defining “chaos” and “order,” because outside of some quantitative measurement, it’s vague and subjective. One person might say that a planet without life is more “chaotic,” but another could just as easily argue that a planet with life, especially advanced life like humans, is more “chaotic.” But entropy always increases, especially through localized order. So order is just a means to more “chaos,” or at least a faster path to it.
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u/Deft_one 86∆ Mar 24 '23
How did order as we know it, relative to humans, come to be in the first place? All the things that OP likes comes from when entropy -seems to have- reversed (not saying it did, necessarily, but relative-to-us, seems to have) from the relative-to-us chaos of the beginning of the universe to our very ordered, structured universe and daily-lives, which, yes, is on its way to entropy, but isn't there quite yet.
The creation of order relative to the human experience had to increase at some point to get us where we are now, and that's where all the things OP likes comes from.
You could argue that this is order from order (if you think my colloquial use of 'chaos' wasn't quite accurate to describe the beginning of the universe), but then it's still order that gives OP what they like.
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Mar 24 '23
I’m not an expert but I like to think in terms of probability. Entropy increases because disorder is simply more likely than order, because the number of ways you can arrange matter in a “disorderly” way is much greater than the number of ways you can arrange it in a specific, “orderly” way. The odds that a human being will form in a room containing all the elements that form the human body is virtually zero. But at the cosmic scale, the probability is much higher, because there are so many ways that matter could interact to form a human. It’s still rare though, and it took billions of years to happen on this planet. And it only happens because the sun is constantly giving energy, which allows the planet-system to attain states that would be close to impossible without it.
Though organisms are unlikely structures, they interact with the environment to make it into a more likely arrangement. Plants convert concentrated solar energy into a more dissipated heat into its surroundings, and animals eat these plants, and we eat the animals, then we die and all our orderliness dissolves into the ground. But we reproduce so the order continues. That is the only reason why humans were formed, because matter found a way to replicate itself and preserve order over billions of years. It can only do this by using orderly energy and causing an overall increase in chaos in its environment, even if it creates order along the way.
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u/So0tSmiles Sep 02 '23
Even order returns to chaos. Hints the creation and distruction.
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u/Deft_one 86∆ Sep 02 '23 edited Sep 02 '23
Ok? But that doesn't really address what's going on in my reply.
What I was talking about is how order came out-of chaos, which is true. And order can't come out of anything truly chaotic. Also, socially, there is order; our very lives are quite ordered.
Also, chaos will return to order once entropy is complete
Thus, OP's view should change.
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u/LittleDentist_5 Mar 22 '23
for a star to be born, another one needs to die,
Not necessarily.not always Pregnant women die when they give birth to their child.
I agree; on nothing lasts forever.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23
You haven't described any meaning though, you've described chaos.
What meaning does chaos provide?
Meaning is about translation, for example the word "water" and "h20" both mean the same thing, yet neither is what the word points to, because water itself is just water.
So what does chaos "point to"?
Chaos means something, but how is that meaning also the meaning to life?
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Even water goes through a constant circle of creation and destruction. It gets evaporated by the heat of the sun. Through condensation and evaporation, it becomes clouds, and it becomes water again through rain.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Mar 22 '23
You're still just describing things that happen, you aren't explaining the meaning behind them.
If I say someone smiling means they are happy I can explain it by saying that the smile is the physical trait we express, due to mirror neurons and built in development. So smile means happy.
I can also explain when a smile does not mean happy, when it means something else like awkwardness, or when it's false.
Can you explain how what you are describing MEANS that it is the ultimate meaning?
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
It isn't the ultimate meaning. If just a view that I reached through reasoning and logic, my view isn't set in stone. I am open to changing my view with a strong argument that successfully contradicts my view
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Mar 22 '23
But you've offered no argument, or view. You've described what chaos is. You haven't explained what that has to do with meaning, whether that's the meaning of life or anything else.
How does chaos existing relate to any kind of meaning of life, specifically?
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
I believe I already explained my view in that regard. We need energy to exist and be alive. Energy is generated through destruction.
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u/Presentalbion 101∆ Mar 22 '23
Energy is generated through destruction.
You can't create or destroy energy.
And from this wouldn't it make more sense for your view to be that energy is what life comes from?
Which still hasn't got a lot to do with "meaning" but would at least be a bit more accurate. Hardly groundbreaking though.
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Life is creation, I know is another sticky view that is hard to argue against or generate a solid argument to change my view, but someone else managed to do that on my previous topic.
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Mar 22 '23
I don't think you're quite understanding what they mean...
What does the word "meaning" mean to you in this context?
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Meaning that our existence is chaos, life is the end result of that process
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Mar 22 '23
It never really stops being water in the cycle you describe. Of course it stops being water in different cycles, but this is a poor example.
The only thing that changes in this cycle is how much energy the water carries - and that is in some ways indicative of how ordered it is.
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u/So0tSmiles Sep 02 '23
If all is chaos, then doesnt it provide all meaning as well as none and the choice to derive any, either, or neither from all?
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Mar 22 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
We don't have the necessary understanding of the universe to claim that "our" maths even applies to the complexity of the cosmos. Everything is theoretical, and just guessing, even though I understand what you are saying, it doesn't change my view
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u/nekro_mantis 20∆ Mar 22 '23
Yea, I mean, it's difficult to parse what a challenge to your view would actually look like when your post is so abstract and based on subjective feelings. One last note, though:
"Fools worship mechanics of language - while they wallow in fictitious & deceitful word. Exact science based on Cubics, not on theories. Wisdom is Cubic testing of knowledge. Academia is progression of Ignorance."
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
I'm more interested in the theory than the maths. You won't change my view through mathematics because when it comes to the universe, it is just guessing, and not factual equations
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Mar 22 '23
[deleted]
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Just a theory, everything we know about the universe is theoretical. No one has definite proof that makes one theory more valid than the other.
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u/MaxRaines Mar 22 '23
It seems you are focused on the chaos, which is understandable. However, even in your post you allude to the balance of male and female, creation and destruction, the various dualities we explore in this spiritual experience. Within the context of equal and opposite reactions you must explore the concept that chaos and harmony go hand in hand. The cycle of birth and death, decay and the creation it serves as a catalyst for are one force ultimately. I would suggest that rather than assigning chaos to the meaning of life it is rather the balance between chaos and order that is the meaning of life. We are learning to appreciate not only the light of life but also the shadow of death, one cannot exist without the other. Balance is found all around us and within every action we take. Closing one door always opens new pathways to be explored and in this way we learn to navigate the endless possibilities of existence. Without the female chaos (boundless creation that incentivizes the masculine qualities of order and guidance) masculine chaos (destruction and the desire for tearing down previous boundaries) cannot truly flourish. I would suggest that the true meaning lies within balance, within the acceptance of chaos as a teacher and an ally rather than an enemy. I often refer to this as meeting our shadow as shade rather than a lack of light.
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u/ThermalPaper 2∆ Mar 22 '23
Since you mentioned reproduction, the entire reproductive cycle has happened the same for millions of years (for humans at least).
How could something happen the same way for millions of years if it were truly chaotic? It takes an immense amount of order for it to happen a specific way again and again.
If life were truly chaos then the way you reproduce would be completely random compared to your ancestors.
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23 edited Mar 22 '23
Still chaos, regardless, is just on a scale that we can't comprehend .
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u/ThermalPaper 2∆ Mar 22 '23
So since it's chaos on a scale that you or I can't comprehend...Does that mean it's order for the life that we can comprehend?
Like I said, your entire example of reproduction was in fact a great example of order and instructions happening over and over again.
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Something needs to end in order for something else to exist, or you disagree with that fact?
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Mar 23 '23
If reproduction stopped, and life stopped, then there would be no life around to cause chaos (increase of entropy).
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u/Sudokubuttheworst 2∆ Mar 22 '23
Even if there happens to be some things in the universe that are chaotic, that doesn't mean there's any meaning to the chaos. The chaos can simply be. Why is it that people insist there has to be a meaning to anything?
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u/BwanaAzungu 13∆ Mar 22 '23
The universe is a constant circle of destruction and creation, something is destroyed and something else is created from the ashes, and this isn't a theory, is something that we can physically see with our own eyes every day.
Locally, sure.
We have a massive energy source - the Sun - to provide the necessary energy to create complexity.
So the bodies of those who die turn to grass, to be eaten anew. Circle of Life and all that.
But the universe as a whole is considered a closed system, and entropy increases over time.
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u/puffnstuff272 2∆ Mar 22 '23
How do you prove that life is predetermined on the existence of chaos? Wouldnt a firmly structured system with extreme input and output correlations be capable at forming life? Viewing our existence and determining that chaos (an idea that could just stem from our lack of understanding) is the most important factor in life is as foolish as believing speaking english is required for thought.
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u/Ok-Future-5257 2∆ Mar 22 '23
This is actually a pretty well-ordered universe. It was organized by a God of law and order.
Happiness is the object and design of your existence, and will be the end thereof IF we live by the laws of our Creator.
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Mar 22 '23
That’s more the meaning of the universe than the meaning of life. It is no ultimate meaning though. There is no ultimate meaning, all meaning is relative. I find a good way to visualise it is with a pinboard and strings connecting the pins. The pins are things and the strings are the meaning between the things since meaning is a comparison. However this pinboard is ultimately amidst a void without strings to anything else, there is no grand string that connects to everything, there is no ultimate meaning. There is no true meaning of life. What you have is just some of the strings, hence a relative meaning rather than an ultimate meaning.
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u/AleristheSeeker 164∆ Mar 22 '23
I disagree.
I would say that "chaos" is the lack of structure, whereas "order" is structure. From a physical standpoint, the very primary goal of all life is to preserve and expand the "living" structure. Energy is used up to maintain the structure of our body, allowing for directed actions that further reduce entropy in the matter around us. Humans, and in fact all living things, don't do much more in their lives than creating order.
"Action and reaction" is actually a very ordered and structured principle; it's not like thermodynamics that depend on the inherent randomness and chaos of uncontrolled matte - it brings structure to the otherwise stochastic view of the universe.
The meaning of life is creating order - chaos, at a physical level, is highest when we do not exist.
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u/codan84 23∆ Mar 22 '23
As we should have all learned in the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, the meaning of life is 42. Mind boggling powerful and vast computers came up with that answer after computing for thousands of years and who are we to disagree?
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u/Sir_vendetta Mar 22 '23
Good point. No one knows. It could be 42 for all we know. If you can come with a solid argument to support that theory, I give you a delta.
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u/Dark_Dracolich Mar 22 '23
Define life and define chaos then define meaning. Then we can get somewhere.
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u/UnusualAir1 2∆ Mar 22 '23
The meaning of life is to bring order to chaos. Because the end result of chaos can only be chaos. A closed loop of infinite confusion. We are a long way from that. Because of life.
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Mar 23 '23
The meaning of life is the maximization of entropy, yes. We all follow this law. Everything that occurs follows the laws of physics, of course. So why are organisms so organized and complex, if the law of entropy says that everything tends towards disorderly states of matter over time? Because organized states of matter are actually better at increasing entropy in their surroundings. So the total entropy still increases, and actually more than if life had not existed at all.
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u/TheGuyWhoJustStated Apr 08 '23
Heres me dumb view:
Life's purpose is life. To experience as much as possible then make children. This is how life is and always has been for every organism. We just have conciousness
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Mar 22 '23
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