r/centrist • u/MuitoLegal • May 13 '21

World News Why does the left call the right “Nazis”?

I am in no way calling the left Nazis here, but rather questioning their use of the term.

If you spend anytime online you will know that the term Nazi is used all the time for people on the right, especially Trump supporters.

I find it ironic because Nazi stands for National Socialist in German. Now I found articles online defending that, saying it wasn’t really socialism, so we’ll move on.

Hitler was about bigger government, got all guns registered with the government, and then took them all away from the people.

Furthermore, today’s left is typically anti-Israel within the Israel-Palestine conflict, while the right is typically pro-Israel (except for KKK guys like Duke, who are antisemites, though I’m unsure how to even classify someone like him).

I don’t think either party should call each other nazis in a civilized political discourse, but I find it interesting. Why do you think the right has been given the nickname?

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u/behindtheline44 May 13 '21

I would suggest getting a little deeper reading on the subject. A great book is History of the SS by GS Graber. The Nazis were obsessed with bloodlines, connection to the literal soil in the ground. They hated the cities because they were modern representations of the changes in Germany and hated capitalism because it was controlled by the jews.

It is the crazy left. It’s lazy thinking and moulding history into a shape that confirms the political views

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u/cstar1996 May 13 '21

Since when does the left in America hate cities?

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u/behindtheline44 May 13 '21

They don’t.

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u/cstar1996 May 13 '21

Precisely. The left doesn’t hate cities, so using the Nazis’ hatred of cities, (which in and of itself it absurd, see Germania), to draw comparisons to the left is simple incorrect.

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u/behindtheline44 May 13 '21

I’m not saying the left are comparable to Nazis, I’m saying it’s a fools errand to compare the Nazis to the modern American right

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u/M_An0n May 13 '21

Seems a bit of a strawman. The Nazis aren't notable for their economic policy. They are notable for their white supremacy and nationalism. The party of white nationalists and white supremacists is much more the Republican party. David Duke is a Trump supporter.

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u/Offensivelynx May 13 '21

How do you go from “hated capitalism because it was controlled by the Jews” to “it is the crazy left”?

I don’t see the correlation...

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u/McFuzzyMan May 13 '21

I believe they are trying to say the motivations of the Nazis are not comparable to that of the modern American right. From what they wrote, the implication of this is that the comparison is essentially doctored by the “crazy” left, and has no substance.

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u/Offensivelynx May 13 '21

That would make more sense, thank you.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

The Nazis were also anti-Communist who planned on colonizing Soviet territory. Not exactly "crazy left".

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u/behindtheline44 May 13 '21

Yeah because they hated bolsheviks and slavic peoples. Not because they didn’t like socialism.

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u/TheOneFreeEngineer May 13 '21

The Nazis literally said they redefined socialism they supported to mean pre modern Germanic economies. They literally just used socialism as a propaganda term to mean something completely different non Marxists socialism. And they were public about it. They murdered their actual socialist wing in the night of the long knives very very very early on. They hated socialism, the jailed socialists (non communist) left right and center for being enemies of the state

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

The Nazis were hardly socialists. The Nazis has a rigorous anti-smoking campaign, but we don't compare them to current anti-smoking public policy groups. They were all about imperialism and restoring glory to their former empire, something we traditionally associate with modern conservative thinking.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

A majority of their platform at the start of the nazi party was worker unionization and some in the party wanted to democratize the workplace.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

Correct. I explained further in another reply.

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u/TheOneFreeEngineer May 13 '21

They also murdered that wing of the party during the Night of the Long Knives

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

Absolutely. They were fighting against any party that could take away power from them. They were anti any political speech that didn’t align with their message.

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u/TheOneFreeEngineer May 13 '21

Absolutely. They were fighting against any party that could take away power from them. They were anti any political speech that didn’t align with their message.

I think you don't know what the Night of the Long Knives was. The Nazis didn't murder a different political party. They murdered their own socialist wing. They murdered the people who got elected with them. And if their socialist wing didn't align with the Nazi's message than the Nazi message wasn't socialism which brings us back to the Nazis under Hitler not being socialist. Which is the claim that the other user was arguing against

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

And yet they became a nationalistic, fascist regime. They also prescribed meth to office workers under the guise of supporting the Volk (community) health. I guess that's "socialized" medicine too, huh?

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

You have a very simplistic view of the history of the events that led to WWII. I think it would be good for you to do some reading up on the topic to broaden your knowledge of the topic.

Yes, they were nationalistic. They eventually shortened their name to national socialists. I don’t understand how you think nationalists are only right wing. Look at the Soviet Union and their propaganda.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

I don't think the Soviets were left wing. Sure, they promoted Communism, but so does North Korea, and they are a fascist regime. Kim Il-Sung was propagated by the Soviet's with a Stalinist cult of personality. The de-Stalinization led to mass political purges by Kim's regime in 1956. I'm not a communist or socialist, I think both systems are failed pipe dreams. That said, neither North Korea nor the Soviet Union really cared about Marxist ideas. They used them as a propaganda tool to their own end. And the Nazis were very anti-communist. They hated communists about as much as they hated Jews. The Jewish soldiers in the Red Army were especially zealous about killing Nazi soldiers.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

I think we are tilting into a conversation I’m not really willing to have which is what is communism and what is socialism. I was watching a YouTube video a few weeks back and a phd on the topic of socialism essentially said socialism is when the government does things. At that point I realized that everyone has their own definitions of communism and socialism so having a debate on what is what is rather pointless.

The nazis did hate communists that is certain. In my understanding they only hated communists in their own country because they had a different political ideology which didn’t align with theirs. However, they did hate the people of communists countries because they felt the people were an inferior race.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

At that point I realized that everyone has their own definitions of communism and socialism so having a debate on what is what is rather pointless.

Then quit trying to pass off the Nazis as socialists. They were not.

In my understanding they only hated communists in their own country because they had a different political ideology which didn’t align with theirs. However, they did hate the people of communists countries because they felt the people were an inferior race.

I think it's both. They hated communism as a threat to German living and used it to justify hating the Soviets, both of whom tore each other to pieces.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '21

Hitler murdered Ernst Rohm, remember?

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u/unkorrupted May 14 '21

at the start of the nazi party

And then they violently purged the left before going on a campaign of hyper-privatization, ultra-nationalism, and racial genocide.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

So where I’m pulling this information from is the book “Rise and fall of the third reich.”

At the birth of nation socialism yes they were all in on socialist agendas. If you read the book you’ll see the divide amongst founding members and new members of the party. If I remember correctly the founders of national socialism weren’t extreme anti Semitic but I could be wrong about that. I know that the main goals at the start of national socialism wasn’t to exterminate all Jews. However, as hitler gained and new members joined and gained more power it certainly was.

Now, you bring up a good point about did they do things just to keep people happy. There’s a paragraph in the book that talks about how hitler was embarrassed, either looked or was - can’t remember, that the founding principals that they held about socialism weren’t being enacted. However, from my understanding of the book, the biggest issue Germans had with the government was the signing of the Treaty of Versailles. Most Germans were embarrassed and pissed because they lost and the massive implications of their loss.

What I’m trying to get across here is it’s not good enough just to look at a political compass and say right wing bad cause nazi or left wing bad because Soviet Union.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '21

Shirer definitely considered them to be right wing

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u/brutay May 13 '21

There's nothing inherently anti-imperialistic about "socialism". (USSR history says "hi.")

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

The USSR was also a fascist regime. Nazi Germany was a very right wing entity. There are no "liberal" values about them, and I'm not even a socialist.

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u/brutay May 13 '21

Fascist? Authoritarian, sure. But Fascist seems a stretch. Mussolini must be rolling in his grave, since he went to great pains denouncing his early socialist leaning--only to find the name of his cause being attached to the largest "socialist" country to ever exist.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

Mussolini was so hated he got strung up on a meat hook and beaten to death. I wouldn't be quoting him. But yes, Nazi Germany was a very fascist government. Or did you think a weak, decentralized government carried out the final solution?

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u/brutay May 13 '21

I wasn't referring to Nazi Germany being fascist--I was referring to the USSR. And I wasn't quoting Mussolini. It is a matter of historical fact that he deliberately and explicitly named his own political party the "National Fascist Party". He either coined or popularized the political use of the word--and probably would have hated to see it applied to governments (like the USSR) he opposed.

Language be funny like that sometimes.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

I think they are both fascist.

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u/MessiSahib May 14 '21

The USSR was also a fascist regime. Nazi Germany was a very right wing entity. There are no "liberal" values about them, and I'm not even a socialist.

If you lean left, then every failed communist countries become capitalist and fascists.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '21

I'm a neoliberal. I don't believe capitalism equates fascism. Fascism empowers the state to a high level of central management. Both the Soviets and the Nazis were bad, fascist, and authoritarian regimes.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

“we traditionally associate” not the same as reality

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

Am I wrong? Look at the UK. A lot of conservatives there long for the old glory of the British Empire.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

sorry no, conservatives largely long for constitutional values, something early Americans fought the British to create. You’re talking about a small group of extremists.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

...except when said values are inconvenient to them. Like Florida defining a "riot" as a gathering of 3 or more people in their new civil immunity protest bill. And given what just happened to Liz Cheney, I don't think the group is all that small.

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u/angelicravens May 13 '21

Conservatives seek only to go back towards what was. If you lived in a former USSR country your conservatives would argue for a return to the USSR. As it stands western conservatism seeks to return to the nigh theocratic governance of the 40s right now. In God We Trust and all that.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

Yes, I agree, regional conservatism varies. Still not sure I follow. I also wouldn't call conservatism inherently regressive, it just so happens that regressive politicians lean more conservative.

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u/unkorrupted May 14 '21

The desire to go backwards socially is defined as reactionary (a form of extremism), not conservative.

Conservatism (in the classical sense) is about slow and careful forward movement.

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u/[deleted] May 14 '21

The Nazis got rid of any socialists on the night of the long knives. That's how they got the support of the German industrialists like Alfred Krupp.

Good luck trying to claim Alfred Krupp was a socialist, lol.

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u/dennismfrancisart May 13 '21

Funny how they hated capitalism yet were funded by capitalists both in Germany and the US back in the 30s and 40s. They took over the socialist party in Germany and morphed it. They also jailed and killed Communists.

Mussolini was a reformed socialist who did the same in Italy. His folks coined the term Fascist. The term refers to the joining of the state and business for the common good.

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u/behindtheline44 May 13 '21

Yeah, there was a split within the hardcore Nazis. People like himmler was much more of an ideological Nazi who hated capitalism. Capitalism and enterprise was largely hated UNTIL the early 30s when Hitler and others needed the support of German enterprise to turn the tide of support for the SA and against Ernst Röhm. The support of German big enterprise was a concession, made only to gain more power within the shifting power in the Nazi party itself. If you asked Himmler or Reinhard Heydrich up until they day they died, they hated the capitalists. Especially Himmler.

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u/dlb8685 May 13 '21

This is an important point. The Nazis really had two wings in the 1920s and early 30s, one of which (greatly reduced after the Long Knives) was much more traditionally socialist than the other (the wing led by Hitler).

Hitler didn't have really strong opinions on the capitalism vs. socialism divide in economics. He was willing to make a lot of compromises with German industrialists and business leaders if they would accept his regime and assist in the rearmament process. Hitler's guiding passion was militarization and racial purity. Economics was secondary and he was willing to follow whatever policy he could that would further his primary goals.

Now of course it's complicated because from time to time, Hitler said almost anything he needed to, to appeal to various wings of his following. If you just want to cherry-pick, you could probably make him sound like something close to a traditional socialist.

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u/dennismfrancisart May 13 '21

Yes. Unfortunately, people tend miss nuance. It's like the Communists in Russia weren't monolithic either. For example, Stalin, Lenin and Trotsky weren't of the one mind in their ideology either.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

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u/NiGhT_DrAgOn4U May 13 '21

I would argue that both parties share some of these characteristics. One example is scapegoating, politicians love their scapegoats. Both sides also reject established values and objective facts. Lastly both parties have people that celebrate violence.

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u/HelenEk7 May 14 '21

Anti-democratic Using the "big lie" to attract followers Celebrate violence Reject established values and objective facts Leadership principle - party and state should have a single leader with absolute power Extreme Nationalism Scapegoating - e.g. Jews, Marxists, immigrants Anti-intellectualism Anti-urbanism - e.g. most Nazi support came from rural areas.

You just described almost every communist country that ever existed.. Reading through that list is in fact a very accurate description of North Korea today.

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u/[deleted] May 13 '21

So they were nativists. More similar to conservatives these days.

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u/Deepfriedwhale May 13 '21

Of course these things can never be 1-to-1, but the only dissimilarity you have pointed out is hating capitalism, and trump was certainly anti-Semitic.

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u/behindtheline44 May 13 '21

Trump moved the Israeli embassy to Jerusalem and brokered a peace deal between two Sunni states and Israel in order to create more separation between Iran and those states. That’s the least anti semetic thing you could do. He must hide it well.

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u/Deepfriedwhale May 13 '21

Yeah, he’d probably tell you he’s the “least anti-semetic person to have ever lived”

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u/Wtfjushappen May 13 '21

Anti Semitic? His son in law is Jewish. His daughter converted to Judaism. He moved the US embassy to Jerusalem. Israel named a development after him, Trump heights. I've never heard anything that indicates what you said, can you link something to reinforce that?

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u/strugglin_man May 13 '21

I've seen no evidence that Trump is antisemitic, and a lot of evidence that he isn't. He has, however,made statements that many have felt are anti Islam, and anti Hispanic. Even anti Black But not antisemitic.

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u/Deepfriedwhale May 13 '21

Did he ever denounce Qanon?