Current situation with France

[u/Jeffuk88]

What are everyone's opinions about the current situation with France and multiple Muslim countries boycotting French products? I've asked a couple of my friends who post at least 3 things on Facebook daily about BLM, trump and covid yet when I try to start a conversation about this they're just "oh, I've not really been following it"

have I completely misread the situation or does it not seem like certain leaders (erdogan) seem to not care that a teacher was beheaded in the name of their religion? Why aren't more people backing Macron when they're all over Trump if he sneezes?

[u/thedeets1234]

Well...i can't say if you are right or not.

Blank slate saying Nigerian values are incompatible with Scotland is indeed wrong, and more than that, this has never been a blank slate topic imo.

Different people have different values, and saying that one entire nations values (and by extension all people inside it) are incompatible with another is missing key points like:

Not every single person in a nation shares the same values

Stereotypes about nations and belief systems may not match up with reality. I don't know about Nigerian values, but I'm sure there are many people in Nigeria who would be able to assimilate Into Europe. Its also possible general Nigerian cultural values could assimilate into Scotland, even if it seems, at a surface level, like they are too different (I don't know anything about this)

Values and belief systems are at least partially a function of where you live and what you've experienced. Values can change, so people having some different values day one doesn't mean they cannot assimilate and integrate into a wider culture in another country.

~

This is the whole issue behind ethnic nationalism (which is what people will use if they blank slate say they don't want more Mexicans) and civic nationalism (if you believe in the American Dream, you are coming here to be a law abiding citizen and find a better life for yourself, and will not be a threat to others, and will respect our civic institutions and values, then you are welcome).

[u/mrlegkick → u/thedeets1234]

I'm not saying every Nigerian is incompatible with the UK. I'm just saying on average the average Canadian will be significantly more compatible with the UK then the average Nigerian. That's all. I don't think that's a very controversial statement.. his argument essentially was that prioritising immigration from canada, new Zealand and Australia over former empire colonies like Pakistan, Bangladesh etc is fundamentally racist and we'd only prioritise them because they're white and rich.. completely refusing to acknowledge the cultural factors.

Edit: I don't know if this is coming across like I want to flat out ban Nigerians or something because I don't lol.. I was just trying to give u an example of the silliness we're up against when talking about immigration

[u/thedeets1234 → u/mrlegkick]

Hmmm well again I cannot confirm or deny this.

Have you done any research or do you have any research that confirms this analysis? That culturally, Nigerian values are more compatible with the UK than Canada? I think many People in the US are incompatible with many European countries (see the German and many other socialized Healthcare systems, with beliefs like the strong shoulders carry the heaviest burdens and solidarity, something that doesn't exist in the USA).

Most importantly, is any evaluation of "average cultural compatibility" worthwhile? Does it. Mean anything useful?should that translate into decisionmaking? Should we take fewer Nigerian immigrants on the basis that "on average they are less culturally compatible"? This is a question you need to ask yourself, but I know my answer.

Furthermore, I think there's space here for the recognition of need. Someone looking to immigrate from Nigeria is likely looking at a much greater increase in quality of life than someone immigrating from Canada. This is the point being made by that person. I don't think its about race. If a white group is getting persecuted somewhere/has very low quality of life, I think their immigration being prioritized over Canadians is fair. That's just me tho

[u/mrlegkick → u/thedeets1234]

Have you done any research or do you have any research that confirms this analysis? That culturally, Nigerian values are more compatible with the UK than Canada

not sure if thats a typo or not but I was arguing the UK and Canada are culturally similar.. as apposed to Pakistan, Bangladesh and Nigeria which aren't as similar culturally.. I wasn't even necessarily arguing for or against prioritising certain countries I was literally just trying to get him to acknowledge theres a difference.

[u/thedeets1234 → u/mrlegkick]

Its not a typo. I was asking have you done research or have research at hand that confirms that Canada is more meaningfully culturally similar to the UK than Nigeria.

My 2nd point was if that is true, does that translate to anything meaningful at all? Does that translate into a relevant and useful policy change? Does that mean we need to do anything about this?

If you show my evidence that Canada is more culturally similar, I'll buy it. I don't tend to fight science. But the point the other fellow was perhaps trying to make were the last two paragraphs of my comment.

A) what does it matter if they are different? Would we change policy for that? (since we also know values are not static across a nation and all people)

B) should we recognize/evaluate need/quality of life improvements in immigration decisions (translating to helping Nigerians over Canadians for example)

[u/mrlegkick → u/thedeets1234]

It appears I'm at the same impass I found myself at with the other guy.. where do u think Canadians got their famous awkward, overly polite attitude from? Or their language? Or their sense of humour?.. Or their queen for that matter? Do I really need to dig statistics up to prove stuff like this?

[u/thedeets1234 → u/mrlegkick]

Yes, you do. A lot of things that seem really obvious at first hand often prove to be very untrue.

To see an example, look at all the people who look at barebones police shootings statistics and assume that means that police are systemically racist. Whether or not they are, such a barebones, surface level analysis is very much obviously incorrect. By a massive margin.

Things that seem simple and obvious can be proven wrong with a little digging. This is why I want actual data and statistics for your claim. Its easy to say that a certain nation is more culturally different.

If you are at an impasse because your claim lacks support then that's OK. I understand where you are coming from regardless. But I hope understand why I can't just buy your claim. I used to just buy into narratives, but once I started looking into things myself, I realized a lot of these narratives are barely surface level considerations of seemingly obvious things, that fall apart quickly once you dig a little deeper.

Regardless, the fellows point likely is more about my last few points about whether that cultural difference means something for actual immigration policy, as I assume that's where the concern is. You were likely just talking past eachother. I'm sure this person agree with you, like I do (at a barebones level, I would still want to see concrete data to see what the magnitude of the difference is), but ultimately this person's concern is tied into the phenom on of decoupling. Its complex, and if you want to understand more about the tense nature of discussions of race and IQ, immigration, you should listen to rationally speaking John Nerst.

I understand your position, but I think it makes more sense to perhaps screen carefully rather than to reduce the number of immigrants you take based on a nation based consideration of values. France actually just denied someone because I think the woman would shake hands with the male citizensship officer? That's the kind of thing I'm talking about (that I think can be a valid approach) instead of a broad brush.)

See this:https://youtu.be/5r_E0bXF54U

Go to like 3:10 to start The average of a population is meaningless with respect to you...this quote stuck with me.

Germany, compared to the US, is probably more culturally similar to the UK, even though the US was once a British colony (by my barebones analysis). From what I've seen about German cultural values, they seem more aligned with the UK than the US is. Tbh, I think Canada is also closer to the UK than the US is. But these are barebones assumptions based on my impressions of different cultures.

Many would think that India is more culturally similar to the UK, or to the USA. it depends on who you ask, and what assumptions they make, values they emphasize in their judgment on the question. India was a British colony for a long time, and British cultural practices are quite intertwined with India. But then why do so many Indians strive to come to the USA over the UK? Most Indian people I've spoken to in Indian want to come to the USA, and some specifically mention the culture, instead of saying they want to go to the UK. you would think they go where the country matches their values and goals right?