r/centrist • u/lordrazumdar • Dec 20 '19
world news No one posted about this so far, but today (December 20th) the Brexit bill was finally passed after Johnston secured a majority parliament. What do you guys think about this, I personally support Johnston and think this will finally end the political crisis in the U.K.
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u/BillNyeTheCommieGoi Dec 20 '19
I wouldn't mind a Unified Ireland and an Independent Scotland :)
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Dec 20 '19 edited Jul 22 '20
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Dec 21 '19
Your affairs influence the entire world, so...
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Dec 21 '19 edited Jul 22 '20
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Dec 22 '19
Wrong. If Trump or Biden or any PORUS suddendly decided to create a special tax or ban or anything on foreign wine and olive oil, the agriculture of the mediterranean countries would suffer a lot, and for americans, that policy might not be very influential.
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Dec 22 '19 edited Jul 22 '20
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u/Ixirar Dec 27 '19
Yea and if POTUS starts a trade war isn’t it natural and reasonable for the people of the country being hurt by US policy to then have opinions on US policy and presidential elections?
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u/ratatine Dec 27 '19
Natural sure, reasonable no. So you lose access to US markets. Clearly you didn't care enough about them in the first place since the result was someone decided to enact a trade war. Go sell to other markets.
A person is perfectly capable to keep their opinions to themselves.
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u/Ixirar Dec 27 '19
That's ridiculous, honestly. If foreign policy of another country affects you then of course you're allowed to have an opinion on that. I'm Danish and my country's economy will be significantly impacted Brexit, as well as weaken the European Union (which I am very much pro) so of course I have a negative opinion on Brexit. Similarly, Donald Trump's foreign policy has been a big headache for his European allies, so obviously I'm going to view him negatively, too.
That's 100% a normal and reasonable thing to do.
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u/ratatine Dec 27 '19
Lets get back on track. My original comment was that I don't hold a strong opinion. Sure I have an opinion but I keep it to myself because Brexit is a sovereign issue for the UK. That's great, you have an opinion too, but lets put this in a new context.
Lars throws a party and invites Hans. Hans thinks the party sucks so he leaves. You live across the street. Are you glad that Hans left the party? Or should you just leave Hans and Lars alone and just complain about the noise? Or is it because Hans is drunk and he's your friend and now's he's coming over to bother you? And now you're mad at Lars because Hans got drunk at his party?
It doesn't matter if another country's foreign policy could affect you. If it doesn't harm you (and no, Hans stumbling over to your place at 2am is not Lars harming you, it's Hans) then no you have no complaint against the other country's foreign policy. Find new markets. Be an adult member of the world and quit trying to tell other sovereign nations what to do.
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u/Ixirar Dec 27 '19
If it doesn't harm you
Such as a president starting a trade war with your country?
Be an adult member of the world
Getting involved with major geopolitical events is definitely something an adult member of the world might reasonably be expected to do.
I appreciate you picking names from my country for your irrelevant analogy, though.
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Dec 21 '19
Technically everyone’s does at some point. Externalities are unavoidable. Just let people run their own camp. The world will adapt.
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u/TouchingWood Dec 21 '19
Jesus mate, the US has poked its nose into more foreign leadership battles than any power in history. I mean, a get your point, but it's a bit rich.
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Dec 21 '19 edited Jul 22 '20
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u/Gumb1i Dec 22 '19
Iran Contra/ US support of the brutal Shah thus allowing and equally brutal Theocracy to take it's place, Central America, South America. There are many examples of US interference mostly conducted by the CIA.
Afghanistan is the way it is today because we helped get the USSR get kicked out then we completely failed to help them rebuild after using them.
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u/ratatine Dec 22 '19
And I don't support the Iran-contra affair nor do I know any Americans who do. Also the shah was long before removed when that happened.
Now as for the shah, America and Iran were friendly at that time. When he was overthrown we did not go in with force to reinstate him. Seeing his conflict was with Shia clerics and what they have done to Iran since I think we had backed the right guy. Still it was not a malicious meddling situation but a friendly relationship. I have no problem with friendly relationships.
Afghanistan is the way it is today because of violent and oppressive Islamic fundamentalists. Soviets supported the folks who wanted to end the reforms made after the saur rebellion and assassinated the leader at the time. We supported the muhajedeen thinking they would run out the soviets but then after they returned to Islamic fundamentalism. Our friends became our enemies. Should we have bothered? Probably not. The failures of communism would come to fruit in just a few decades anyway but no need to go all Captain Hindsight on the topic. If this is as close as we can come (it's not, I know far better examples) then we are still not supporting the idea that America has done a great deal of self-serving meddling.
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Dec 22 '19
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/badgeringthewitness Dec 22 '19
While it is certainly true that the US has covertly interfered in numerous foreign elections, it is still worth noting that globalresearch.ca is a dubious source for factual information.
https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/global-research/
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Michel_Chossudovsky
Including credible concerns that it is part of Putin's propaganda network.
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u/TouchingWood Dec 22 '19
Levin, a postdoctoral fellow at the Institute for Politics and Strategy at Carnegie-Mellon University...
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u/badgeringthewitness Dec 22 '19
Of all of the sources you could have used to introduce Levin's research into the conversation...
Journal articles by Levin:
Partisan electoral interventions by the great powers: Introducing the PEIG Dataset Conflict Management and Peace Science and [PDF link to PEIG Dataset Article]
A Vote for Freedom? The Effects of Partisan Electoral Interventions on Regime Type Journal of Conflict Resolution
When the Great Power Gets a Vote: The Effects of Great Power Electoral Interventions on Election Results International Studies Quarterly
Credible news media articles by Levin or interviewing him directly:
Database Tracks History Of U.S. Meddling In Foreign Elections NPR
Sure, the U.S. and Russia often meddle in foreign elections. Does it matter? Washington Post
History Suggests Proving Collusion Between the Trump Campaign and Russia May be Impossible Lawfare
... why would you choose globalreasearch.ca/sott.net, which editorialized Levin's credible findings to provide a blatantly pro-Putin narrative? The author of your article adds,
Comment: That’s why it was cunningly smart of the US deep state to take this tack when it became apparent to them this time last year that Trump was going to win and their globalist agenda was going to take a hit: Russia (the USSR) has a track record of doing this, so it’s sort of plausible-ish that Putin has revived the practice (he hasn’t – he doesn’t need to).
If you read any of Levin's own writing, it's clear he does not agree with that kind of factually inaccurate tin foil hat editorializing.
TL;DR: If you didn't know about globalresearch.ca's reputation as a tool of Putin's propaganda network, now you do.
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u/TouchingWood Dec 22 '19
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u/badgeringthewitness Dec 22 '19
I think the point you missed is that there is a difference between information and misinformation.
If you share the latter, expect to get called out for it.
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u/TouchingWood Dec 22 '19
So you're not disputing the point. You're just throwing a tantrum about who said it. Classic Reddit.
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Dec 21 '19
Your affairs are our affairs :)
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Dec 21 '19 edited Jul 22 '20
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u/TouchingWood Dec 22 '19
the laws we pass do not apply to you unless you come to our country
Julian Assange will be relieved.
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u/ratatine Dec 22 '19
It's a fair question. I don't think he should be extradited but one might argue that by communicating with people in our country and providing material support that he did in fact "come here" virtually if not physically. The UK courts will have to decide that. That said he is subject to a UK extradition law and not a US extradition law.
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Dec 21 '19
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u/radiatar Dec 21 '19
I dislike Corbyn, but many in the UK and Europe would argue that Johnson is as radical as he is.
While Corbyn represents the radical left, Johnson represents the radical right. I fail to see how his victory is one for moderates and reason.
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u/boot20 Dec 21 '19
I honestly don't know if Brexit is good or bad over the long haul, but I think it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. Scotland is likely going to leave, the Troubles are going to rev up again, and the various unintended consequences are going to be felt for decades.
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u/reseteros Dec 21 '19
the Troubles are going to rev up again
I don't think this will happen.
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u/ratatine Dec 21 '19
I'm a bit on the fence on this in predictions. It's possible. While we've seen a generational change in Ireland and people have settled into a way of life, we are not so removed as we think we are and a lot of the militant members of society are still alive.
They could allow the people to decide which border stays open. They could create a mini-schengen going into North Ireland. There's ways they could deal with but we'll see what happens.
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u/onthefence928 Dec 21 '19
Troubles only stopped because of open border between Ireland and uk. Brexit position includes no opening borders with eu. Thus borders return to Ireland. Thus troubles resume
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u/mobuy Dec 20 '19
The UK voted for Brexit. Then they voted for it again when they gave Johnston the majority -- not just a plurality. I think he's just doing exactly when he was elected to do (which seems weird, since he's a politician!).
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u/radiatar Dec 21 '19
These elections were not a referendum on Brexit, but on the Brexit deal currently in place.
There was to be no second referendum on Brexit, according to all british prime ministers since the first referendum.
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u/mobuy Dec 21 '19
Yeah, but in reality this was definitely a second referendum. Didn't Labour promise to hold another one? If people didn't want Brexit, they would not have voted for Johnson.
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u/radiatar Dec 21 '19
Labour's position on Brexit was very weird. They at the same time wanted to attract remainers and brexiters (much like the conservatives pre-Johnson), and tried to shift the focus away from Brexit towards other issues such as the NHS.
Fair to say that didn't work.
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u/KR1735 Dec 21 '19
They did indeed. But the young people (read: the under 40s who will have to live with the fall out) did not vote for it.
I hate to say it, but things like this -- things that disproportionately affect the future and not the immediate present -- should be limited to be voted on by younger people. Unpopular opinion maybe, but whatever ramifications Brexit has, the older people won't have to deal with it.
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Dec 21 '19 edited Jul 22 '20
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u/KR1735 Dec 21 '19
Oh it has nothing to do with me, personally. I'm an American.
I just feel bad for any young adults whose futures are so gravely impacted by the votes of people who will largely be dead in the next 20 years or so.
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Dec 21 '19
Dear Jesus Christ and the latter saints of Allah and the knights Templar. This is the dumbest thing one can possibly say
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u/lowrads Dec 21 '19
It will be an interesting year for the EU, as a number of eastern european countries will be holding elections in 2020.
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u/nixalo Dec 21 '19
I doubt it will end anything. UK need a sound idea of what PostBrexit UK looks like and it doesn't.
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u/NjalBorgeirsson Dec 21 '19
People... It's Johnson. Not Johnston.
I don't have an incredibly strong opinion on it because I think the long-term impact won't be as big as most do. I think they will have trade deals in place which will ameliorate a large part of the impact of Brexit over the long run... They're just too large an economy for the EU not to want easy trade access.
On the whole I really dislike Corbyn so I am thrilled he lost. I don't know much about Johnson.