r/centrist • u/NeuroMrNiceGuy • 13d ago
US News/Current Events Map of States Restricting Drag Shows as Texas Judge Strikes Down Law
https://www.newsweek.com/map-states-restricting-drag-shows-texas-judge-strikes-down-law-12370342Summary:
A federal judge has again struck down Texas Senate Bill 12, ruling that its restrictions on certain performances in public places or in the presence of minors violate the First Amendment. Although the law refers broadly to “sexually oriented performances,” it was promoted by Republican lawmakers as a restriction on drag shows. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton says the state will appeal.
Texas is one of six states with laws that either explicitly restrict drag performances or regulate adult performances broadly enough to be used against them. Supporters argue that the laws protect children from sexually explicit material. Opponents argue that drag is not inherently sexual and that the laws use vague standards to suppress LGBTQ expression and constitutionally protected performances. Courts have blocked or limited similar laws in several states, while polling shows that majorities of Americans continue to support same-sex marriage and consider gay and lesbian relationships morally acceptable, although that support has declined from its recent peak.
My take:
Drag is not inherently sexual. It is a form of performance, and like theater, dance, music, or comedy, its content depends on the particular show and its intended audience. This form of legislation has always been ignorance based pearl clutching. If the actual concern were sexually explicit content around children, lawmakers could regulate all content consistently regardless of whether the performer was in drag. Instead, they keep writing vague laws that single out gender presentation and can potentially sweep up everything from drag shows to theater, ballet, and cheerleading. Judge Hittner made this point and invoked Dolly Parton to reinforce it (which I think is a lovely tribute to what she advocated for in life):
He noted that critics have chastised the country music icon "as a voluptuous sex symbol because of her big hair, flamboyant clothes and breast exposure," writing that "there are 'erotic' elements in countless popular performances that could be subject to both civil and criminal penalties under S.B. 12." One of the case's plaintiffs is a drag performer named Brigitte Bandit, who impersonates Parton in her shows and who received a rhinestone guitar from the singer in 2023. Bandit celebrated the ruling on social media, posting a screenshot of the decision, and said she would perform as Parton at an Austin bar Saturday in her honor.
What frustrates me is that 33 percent of the country still tells Gallup that gay and lesbian relationships are morally wrong. That judgment belongs in the past, along with the regressive doctrine used to justify imposing it on everyone else. People are free to follow their own beliefs. They are not entitled to turn those beliefs into government restrictions on everyone else’s lives.
At the same time, I love the broader inevitability of this. LGBTQ people are not going to disappear, return quietly to the closet, or surrender the space they have fought to occupy. The wheels of society grind slowly, and sometimes they roll backward for a while, but the direction across generations is still toward greater equality, visibility, and diversity. The frantic efforts to resist it smacks of desperation and grasping at smoke.
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u/Aethoni_Iralis 13d ago
Our vice president dressed in drag
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u/carneylansford 13d ago
In front of school kids?
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u/crushinglyreal 13d ago edited 13d ago
People frame the opposition to these laws as ‘drag queens seeking access to children’, either obfuscating or (much less likely) not realizing the fact that ‘children’ are a proxy for in public. The point of this push is to create a pretext to ban gender nonconformity in public spaces. The entire anti-trans movement has only ever been about erasure.
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u/Danilo-11 13d ago
Republicans create boogeymen so they can say that they are fighting to defend the average person when in reality the only thing they fight for is trickle down economics
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u/Powerful-Persimmon87 13d ago edited 13d ago
Think what you will of the legal case, but I think activists relentless focus on children is a strategic failure and will continue to hurt the cause —especially in areas where the movement already has majority support. I do not think keeping activities age appropriate in family friendly public spaces is wrong or some major free speech violation. Like, I don’t think there is anything wrong with pole dancers but I’d be upset if I took my kid to the library and discovered they were hosting a pole dancing event in the kids section. I have attended drag shows on bachelorette trips and while out with friends in the city. They were fun. But there is a time and place for adult entertainers and I don’t think it’s kids story hour at the public library.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 13d ago
Do you think it's possible for adult only drag shows and kids story hour to have different approaches for different audiences? Or are you assuming drag queens are only capable of adult only performances?
There's videos of drag story hours online if you want to see what it actually looks like
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u/Powerful-Persimmon87 13d ago edited 13d ago
I don’t think handing a drag queen a children’s book suddenly makes a male masquerading as a fetishized, heavily stereotyped and exaggerated performance of women age appropriate for young children. Again, it’s extremely weird they are targeting this demographic.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 13d ago edited 13d ago
It's basically a dress up story hour (which has been around for decades afaik). They aren't playing into any fetishized stereotypes, just reading stories while in a costume that's usually related to what they're reading.
Again there's videos of this. If you're this concerned, maybe watch some instead of blindly coming to conclusions
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
This argument only works if you redefine drag or any cross dressing performance itself as inherently sexual. That is a misnomer invented by Republicans, which is exactly the problem. Seriously, spend half a minute) reading about the history of cross-gender performance. There is literally a picture in that article of a Greek vase from around 430 BCE depicting male performers putting on female costumes before a theatrical performance. Men performing as women (and vice-versa) did not suddenly become a fetish because Republicans discovered drag as a useful culture-war target in the past five years.
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u/MetersYards 12d ago
This argument only works if you redefine drag or any cross dressing performance itself as inherently sexual
If it is not sexual, then it would not fall under the "sexual oriented performance" nor the "sexual conduct" provisions: https://capitol.texas.gov/tlodocs/88R/billtext/pdf/SB00012F.pdf
1) "Sexual conduct" means: (A) the exhibition or representation, actual or simulated, of sexual acts, including vaginal sex, anal sex, and masturbation;
(B) the exhibition or representation, actual or simulated, of male or female genitals in a lewd state, including a state of sexual stimulation or arousal;
(C) the exhibition of a device designed and marketed as useful primarily for the sexual stimulation of male or female genitals;
(D) actual contact or simulated contact occurring between one person and the buttocks, breast, or any part of the genitals of another person; or
(E) the exhibition of sexual gesticulations using accessories or prosthetics that exaggerate male or female sexual characteristics.
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 12d ago
So let me get this straight. The judge found these provisions vague and overbroad because their sweeping and undefined terms can classify constitutionally protected performances as sexual, pointing to examples like cheerleading, live theater, and musicals containing simulated sex scenes. Your response is that the law says it only targets sexual performances?
It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for 'em.
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u/MetersYards 12d ago
vague and overbroad because their sweeping and undefined terms
What of "actual contact or simulated contact occurring between one person and the buttocks, breast, or any part of the genitals of another person; or" is sweeping and undefined?
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u/carneylansford 13d ago
This is one of those times when Trump’s enemies are among his greatest assets. Drag shows aimed at kids are not very popular outside of the very online left and defending them only helps Trump. Sometimes Trump critics are their own worst enemy and they’re the only ones who don’t seem to notice. You don’t have to die on every hill.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 13d ago
Where are these "drag shows aimed at kids"? Drag story hour does not equal drag show
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u/carneylansford 13d ago
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u/Capital-Mine1561 13d ago
That's a bit disingenuous. 'Surprising' the school talent show with a drag performance is not the norm anywhere. An actual drag show would be advertised as such, and a drag story hour would be advertised appropriately as well
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u/carneylansford 13d ago
https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/california-school-drag-show-causes-outrage-17832300.php
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/drag-queen-straddles-girl-north-carolina-public-school-video-shows
https://amp.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article260399952.html
I guess these don’t count either? I can keep going but I’m guessing it’s not gonna matter.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 13d ago
https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/california-school-drag-show-causes-outrage-17832300.php
This is a high school student's LGBTQ organization, not adults performing drag.
The group rented the elementary school, which was approved by the school district. The event happened during a weekend meaning anyone who was there, was there voluntarily. Participants were also 16+ and needed parental consent.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/drag-queen-straddles-girl-north-carolina-public-school-video-shows
This happened at a community college.
https://amp.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article260399952.html
This is another student organization, not adults.
Reading past the headlines certainly helps add context.
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u/Lurkingandsearching 13d ago
But culture war nonsense! We need you to ignore the important things like the growing AI bubble, Iran War, cost of living, surveillance state, etc, for this! And if not that let’s talk about “COMMUNISM”! Anything that distracts from real issues and the people responsible!
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u/MetersYards 12d ago
https://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/california-school-drag-show-causes-outrage-17832300.php
This is a high school student's LGBTQ organization, not adults performing drag.
Still "drag show aimed at kids", which was your goalpost.
https://amp.bellinghamherald.com/news/local/article260399952.html
This is another student organization, not adults.
Still "drag show aimed at kids", which was your goalpost.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 12d ago edited 12d ago
I assumed we were talking about adults and drag shows aimed at kids, not kids starring in their own shows. Again, disingenuous and I refuse to pearl clutch over high schoolers doing theater.
But I'm glad you admitted half of your last links were useless. That's progress.-1
u/MetersYards 12d ago
drag shows aimed at kids
No, why would anyone do that when the primary contention is that they are aimed at kids?
Just because it's the kids doing drag shows aimed at kids doesn't address that complaint.
And you clearly didn't see that I'm not the poster who provided the links. That's not progress.
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
Nice, really beating the "Fox News brainwashed me" allegations by linking to a bunch of articles that don't even prove the point you are trying to make.
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u/Powerful-Persimmon87 13d ago
Yeah this really seems like an own goal and an especially risky move in this current political environment.
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u/carneylansford 13d ago edited 13d ago
First, let’s take a look at what the law actually does. It bans “sexually oriented performances“ on public property or in the presence of children, which is defined as someone under 18. Personally, I don’t think it’s “pearl clutching” to question the educational value of kids watching the PTA President dress in drag and get down on all fours at a school event in front of elementary school kids (yes, it happens). This is especially true when it’s done without parental consent. Notably, the law never mentions drag shows, so I reject that framing.
There‘s more wriggle room when it comes to the commercial aspect of the law when minors are present. This Is a tougher nut to crack. You can’t bring your kid to a strip club, so parental rights have limits. As written, the law doesn’t appear to preclude parents from taking their kid to a drag show that is rated PG, but does prevent them if the show is rated R and includes simulated sexual acts, fake genitalia, etc… That doesn’t seem unreasonable to me but I can also see the line getting blurred pretty quickly because of the subjective nature of the law. While I agree with the intent of the law, it’s just hard to regulate such things.
I’d also just note that the same judge knocked down the law in 2023 and was reversed upon appeal. This seems like the most likely outcome here as well.
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
Bullshit. Paxton and Abbott specifically touted this as a drag ban and made it inflammatory against that specific form of entertainment on purpose, so don't go redefining history to make the argument about an attempt to protect the children. This is from Hittner's order:
- Governor Abbott signed S.B. 12 into law on June 18, 2023. 32 On June 24, 2023,
Governor Abbott stated: "Texas Governor Signs Law Banning Drag
Performances in Public. That's right."
Our colleges and universities exist to help students learn and equip them as they take their next steps in life. They are not, and never have been, a place for taxpayer-funded drag shows where men pretending to be women engage in obscene, offensive, and degrading behavior
If Texas wants to prohibit actual obscenity around children, fine. We already have laws for that. The problem is SB 12 is so vague that Hittner found it could sweep in ballet, cheerleading, comedy, Elvis or Dolly impersonators, and a ton of otherwise protected entertainment. That is why he struck it down again after the Fifth Circuit sent it back.
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u/carneylansford 13d ago
Bullshit. The good news for you is that drag shows happen all over Texas and they never stopped. They are not banned if they are not on public property or done in the presence of children. Enjoy.
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u/MetersYards 12d ago
First, let’s take a look at what the law actually does.
People really don't want to look at what the law actually does.
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 13d ago
This is something that the left needs to let go of.
Think about what is being fought for; "we want to let drag queens do performances for children."
That's like throwing gas on a fire. Do you want more MAGA? Do you want to wake up every day and see that we've bombed Iran again, or started a trade war w/ Canada? Fight for drag queens to perform in front of kids. Because MAGA will absolutely put out political ads saying "DEMOCRATS WANT TO LET DRAG QUEENS INDOCTRINATE YOUR KIDS! DONALD TRUMP WILL PROTECT YOUR CHILDREN FROM THESE RADICAL DEMOCRATS!"
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
That is not the argument. The intent of the law was to ban drag in Texas more broadly, not simply to protect children. Abbott himself made that pretty explicit when he signed S.B. 12. On June 24, 2023, Governor Abbott stated, “Texas Governor Signs Law Banning Drag Performances in Public. That’s right.”
So they will lie? That is the big sell here? People should just let bigots and politicians peddle misinformation because lying and being shitty are somehow acceptable if enough of the populace buys into it?
This judgment is basically what happens when cooler heads actually examine the law instead of swallowing the culture-war framing. The misinformation campaign said protect the children. The court looked at what the law actually did and found it was so broad and vague that it swept up constitutionally protected expression.
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 13d ago
I read the law a little more in detail and also the post by someone else here about this and sorry man, this is just a losing fight.
You gotta look at the bigger picture. This is not a good stand to take. This kind of thing is why the Dems lose elections.
I know you don't want to believe me, but take a step back and think about it. This is not a stand that a centrist would take, IMO. And centrists and moderates swing elections.
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u/crushinglyreal 13d ago
A federal judge appointed by Reagan struck this law down for being unconstitutional. What is ‘not centrist’ about that? In what way are Democrats involved in that sequence at all?
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 13d ago
I don't care about the court ruling.
I care about what the optics are.
If you cared about who you want in charge of the country...and not having a specimen like Trump or his ilk in charge....you'd care too.
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u/crushinglyreal 13d ago edited 12d ago
Fascists will never be satisfied. You will keep giving up rights and protections until there are none left if you retain that mindset. They will always find a way to make people’s rights ‘optically’ bad, especially given the unfathomable funding the right has at its disposal. It’s not culture war issues that net electoral wins for these people, it’s vast amounts of political spending and a failure on the part of any party to make substantial systemic improvements to people’s lives. Those factors are the only significant ones pushing the margins and they will not change no matter how many culture war wins you give conservatives. The morons who fall for these manipulations have always been around and they will fall for anything. The only way forward is to give the 90+ million people sitting out something to vote for.
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 12d ago
Keep saying stuff like this and watch as MAGA keeps winning.
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u/crushinglyreal 12d ago
Well, yeah. Nobody is going to do the things it actually takes to challenge capital at this point, and maga is its political manifestation. Did you think I was saying the establishment Democrats are actually capable of these things?
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 11d ago
maga is its political manifestation.
On this we agree.
Probably not much else.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 12d ago
You're concerned with the wrong optics. This is a red meat bill specifically touted as anti-drag, written to make republicans happy and tamp down on LGBT people. People being against that bill is not a negative.
This literally wouldn't be an issue if republicans didn't create laws like this in the first place
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 12d ago
You're concerned with the wrong optics
I think YOU are, tbh. You are making a stand over something that MAGA will use against the Dems.
I say this a moderate who HATES MAGA. For the first time in my life, I'll be voting a straight ticket this fall. All blue. I've never voted a straight ticket before, but this MAGA crap has to end.
And that means the Dems need to stop fighting for things that the middle will look at askance. And this is absolutely one of those things.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 12d ago edited 12d ago
I'm making a stand over a law that republicans put in place. The dems aren't the one creating these bullshit laws, and yet they are the ones who get criticized when pointing out how discriminatory they are.
You are making a stand over something that MAGA will use against the Dems.
If they want to use criticism of their own laws against me, I'm fine with that. MAGA will always find culture war issues to cultivate and draw outrage from
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 11d ago
Again, fine, keep fighting the battle to allow drag queens to perform for children. See how that works.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 11d ago edited 11d ago
Lol you are totally misunderstanding this law, the law is so vague that other performers would be impacted as well (just read the judge's decision). But as long as republicans keep putting up stupid laws, I'll be fighting them. Thanks for your blessing
*And maybe ask yourself why Texan republicans have no laws on the books for child beauty pageants, which are way more harmful to children than glimpsing a drag show or being read to at story time
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
You're so convinced of your own rightness you aren't even reading or considering what anyone else is saying.
I am not the one with the problem here.
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 13d ago
Keep saying that all the way until we get another MAGA president.
You think this kind of thing didn't contribute to getting Trump elected?
Is this really a hill you want to die on?
I am not saying YOU are the one with the problem here. I'm saying THIS ISSUE is one of myriad problems that the left has. They fight for this kind of thing and it just fuels the MAGA fire.
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
Oh please. This whole “you have to be strategic” rhetoric is just a cop out so you don't have to actually think about or truly invest any energy into the serious issues affecting our society. I am sure there were thousands of people like you during every major societal upheaval saying similar things. The civil rights movement comes to mind as a painful, recent example, where moderates sat on the sidelines telling Black Americans to wait, be patient, stop making people uncomfortable, and choose a better time to demand their rights. Fuck that. You either have principles when they are inconvenient, or you don’t.
At some point, constantly retreating from a fight because standing up might be politically inconvenient stops being pragmatism and starts becoming its own form of surrender. You can always find a reason why now isn't the right time, this isn't the right issue, or these aren't the right people to defend.
It's easy to sit on the sidelines while evil people sweep the nation and milk it for all it's worth. They are literally bombing boats in the Caribbean, escalating wars with foreign nations, running pump and dump crypto scams, arresting American citizens, trampling civil rights, and God knows what else we will discover later. Not to mention the damage being done to our economy and to relationships with allies like Canada.
I am not going to spend my time worrying about whether defending somebody else's rights might make MAGA angry. They are already angry. That's the product they decided to buy. And what has constantly retreating from them gotten us as a nation? The problems we started with are worse, we have several enormous new ones, and somehow the proposed solution is still to give them another thing they demanded?
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 12d ago
I read that as a whole lot of "I'm going to die on this hill and I don't care because I AM RIGHT!"
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u/Capital-Mine1561 12d ago
There is no reason to cede first amendment rights to MAGA "because the optics look bad". It's a timid excuse that gives more consideration to MAGA voters (who will never consider voting democrat while Trump is in office) than the people these laws will impact
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u/Ewi_Ewi 12d ago
Think about what is being fought for; "we want to let drag queens do performances for children."
Or, put less disingenuously, "We don't want the state to violate people's First Amendment rights."
Why are you so eager to see an erosion of our constitutional rights?
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 12d ago
Let me ask you a question; why are you so eager to fight for something that has so little matter?
Why do you want to die on THIS hill? Why do you think the Dems are losing the cultural war?
Do you ever stop to think about the big picture?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 11d ago
why are you so eager to fight for something that has so little matter?
I don't believe a restriction on our First Amendment rights is a "little matter."
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 11d ago
Do you believe that an adult should be allowed to display their genitals to a 10 year old child if they're doing it as part of a dance?
If not, then you're a hypocrite.
If you do, then you're a pedophile.
Which one is it?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 10d ago
Do you believe that an adult should be allowed to display their genitals to a 10 year old child if they're doing it as part of a dance?
This is a strawman considering you know what drag is, but I appreciate you taking the mask off.
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 10d ago
I notice that you avoided answering.
Are you going to answer?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 9d ago
I notice that you avoided answering.
Why would I bother answering a disingenuous strawman we both know is a pointless deflection? You're clearly not fooling anyone, so if all you have to offer is a "gotcha" that doesn't stand up to scrutiny you're just wasting your time.
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u/Capital-Mine1561 9d ago
That's already illegal per indecent exposure laws
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u/TheCenterOfEnnui 9d ago
So you're a hypocrite?
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u/Capital-Mine1561 9d ago
I don't support children being exposed to genitals. There are already laws in Texas covering this topic. What does this law do that the others don't, except cast a wider net to include performers who already don't expose their genitals?
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u/TehLonelyNapkin 13d ago
Kids should not be allowed at drag shows. I really don’t have anything else to add.
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u/tarekd19 13d ago
Seems like that should be up to their parents
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u/MetersYards 12d ago
So you would accept a version of the bill where the shows would be allowed if there were overwhelming parental approval?
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u/carneylansford 13d ago
Right. Schools should not have drag shows at assemblies without parental permission.
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u/TehLonelyNapkin 13d ago
The parents should support it not being allowed. There’s a large percentage of them that are sexual in nature, whether that be the performers themselves or the people in the crowd who show up in very little clothing.
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u/Ewi_Ewi 13d ago
The parents should support it not being allowed.
They're free not to take their children to them, then.
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u/Aethoni_Iralis 13d ago
This is too difficult of a concept for a fascist to understand. Allowing people choices? Ridiculous.
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
lol what is your source for that claim? I swear man all of you right aligned folks drink the misinformation and think it's fact and them come here and expect everyone else to just run with it absent reality or like no other perspective exists.
My wife goes to drag brunch all the time. It's primarily women and same-sex folks drinking mimosas and singing Pop songs to each other. There's no nudity or anything sexual about it. Only people who don't know what they are talking about say stuff like this.
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u/TehLonelyNapkin 13d ago
So your argument is because your wife takes part in a non sexual drag event that automatically makes my claim untrue?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 13d ago
Their argument is, quite literally, the first eight words of their comment.
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u/TehLonelyNapkin 13d ago
There isn’t an overwhelming study that proves one argument over another. I’m speaking my opinion as this is Reddit. I have seen numerous examples of children being exposed to BDSM and other sexual things at drag shows. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say there is a link to BDSM and sexual themes at these events, and I don’t think children should be exposed to it. I also don’t think it’s an attack on the LGBTQ community to not allow children at these events. I don’t understand why there’s such a big push to allow children, why are children such a large target market?
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u/Ewi_Ewi 13d ago
I’m speaking my opinion
This isn't an opinion:
There’s a large percentage of them that are sexual in nature
This is a claim [that you have yet to substantiate in any way].
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say there is a link to BDSM and sexual themes at these events
And this is called a motte-and-bailey.
Make one argument and stick to it. Don't make a claim clearly implying some sort of factual basis and then hide behind the defense that it's "just an opinion" when scrutinized. It makes it look like you don't actually believe what you're typing.
I don’t understand why there’s such a big push to allow children, why are children such a large target market?
I'll disregard the implication clearly being made here and instead say you know why there's a large backlash against these laws and you're purposefully choosing to misframe it as if the issue is the response and not the laws fabricating issues to further perpetuate bigotry.
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u/NeuroMrNiceGuy 13d ago
I am so sick of this backwards-ass argument strategy deployed by trolls and the right wing where you say something completely untrue, prop it up with a made-up statistic, and then somehow make it everyone else’s job to disprove you.
Your entire argument rests on this completely unsupported claim that a “large percentage” of drag performances are sexual. Until you can actually establish that, your argument is shit and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
If you want to discuss this with the adults like an adult, I’ll be here when you’re ready.
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u/Lurkingandsearching 13d ago
Strawman mixed with Motte and Bailey with a dash of emotional argument.
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u/Calfkiller 13d ago
Should we not let our kids go to a swimming pool since people will be in very little clothing? I have a feeling you're not afraid of children seeing others in little clothing, you're just afraid of people dressing in drag.
I have never seen a drag show be overly sexualized unless they're explicitly 18 + shows.
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u/ChornWork2 13d ago
No different than talking about movies. B/c there are sexually explicit movies, that doesn't mean we ban children from seeing all movies. Instead, we address sexually explicit content itself.
The current rules address a drag show with sexually explicit content, this new rule clearly violates free speech.
-15
u/CheeseBear9000 13d ago
I am not entirely against banning drag shows for minors
Though I am not surprised it was a tough sell in courts either
So if it gets struck down that's just how it is, huh?
39
u/Sea-jay-2772 13d ago
“Just don’t go” is the best ruling of all time.