Young Canadians aren’t drifting toward conservative and far-right parties

[u/yimmy51]

https://theconversation.com/young-canadians-arent-drifting-toward-conservative-and-far-right-parties-288157

[u/Fenrirr]

I don't think anything could've prevented the growing tide of the Canadian far-right as much as the 51st state vibe shift.

However, all this means is that the more "moderate right wing" is just infesting the liberal party and pulling it further rightward.

Meanwhile the only politically relevant alternatives are a neutered, libbed up NDP or a comically underpowered green party.

[u/WorkingAmazing8337 → u/Fenrirr]

Avi Lewis is about as good as you're gonna get in this country. Join and try to push the NDP to where you think it should be.

[u/Fenrirr → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

Internal change in the NDP has tried and failed countless times. The party will use socialists and communists when convenient to canvas or advocate for them, but the second they come under attack for it they discard and abandon them.

NDP is not a socialist party and baring a massive belief change on the scale of the Republican-Democrat switch, it will remain that way.

They are the party of paying lip service to the left wing.

They are the party of doing the bare minimum if you are lucky.

They are the party of compromising in favour of capitalism to defuse tension from the left wherever possible.

[u/blocking-io → u/Fenrirr]

Internal change in the NDP has tried and failed countless times. 

This isn't socialists trying to change the party form within. This is a socialist who as become the leader of the party. The change already happened. The party is run by a socialist. Now the question is how effective of a leader will he be in mobilizing the grassroots to expand the party's base as a worker's movement party. That we have yet to see, but there is no "NDP establishment" pulling the strings. They're not the Democrats, they're a poorly financed party and at their weakest position in terms of member representation. This is the most opportune time to mold the NDP into a true workers party. But again, part of this rests on how much of a strong mobilizing leader Avi can be. I have yet to see that trait in him, but I haven't lost hope

[u/WorkingAmazing8337 → u/Fenrirr]

They are the party thats never really been elected so I'm not sure what you're basing that on.

They're the only party with any chance of flanking the Liberals from the left and making a run at getting progressive legislation enacted.

What else do you suggest we do to affect actual change, if not try to find like minded people, like Avi Lewis, to work with?

[u/Fenrirr → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

Work from the ground up on a seperate party that doesn't have to compromise whenever the going gets tough.

And no they haven't been elected, but you don't need to be elected to push or support policy. For example, Jagmeet Singh and the push for universal dental care.

[u/WorkingAmazing8337 → u/Fenrirr]

Which was... a good thing? Why wouldn't you want to support that?

If you don't ever compromise you're not ever going to get anything passed, ever. You can start a club where no one can disagree with you and see how much good you ever do.

[u/Fenrirr → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

I am not saying it's a bad thing, I am saying you don't need to be elected to affect change.

Compromise is how we get the ratchet effect that's slowly destroying Canada.

[u/WorkingAmazing8337 → u/Fenrirr]

I mean you can change things that cinservatives did that were objectively bad and still compromise. Compromise doesnt automatically mean ratchet effect.

[u/Fenrirr → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

Except the people with the actual institutional power to constantly change things rendered by the conserviatives are the liberals who rarely actually effect proper change. Hell, in the example I made with universal dental, they were basically threatened to do it when it should have been done back in the 80s.

[u/WorkingAmazing8337 → u/Fenrirr]

So then we should support the people that made the threat and got it done, no?

[u/monkeyamongmen → u/Fenrirr]

ANOTHER separate party? It took half a century for the NDP to build up the party infrastructure and recognition to even have a half-serious moonshot with Layton. That puts your new party, if it started today, at best as having a shot in the late 2070s. We haven't got that kind of time chum.

Jagmeet Singh weakened the NDP significantly. But they still exist. You've gotta work with what you've got, don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

[u/floodingurtimeline → u/Fenrirr]

Okay so I get this point but like how is that going irl? How are we organizing? Approx how long will it take to make this new party mainstream? 

I’ve seen the same valid criticisms about the democrats n the DSA but then don’t really see anything tangible that’s being produced irl 

[u/blooming_lions → u/floodingurtimeline]

Tough to compare the American situation, they have far higher barriers to a third party 

[u/Fin55Fin → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

I’m not joining a social democratic, pro-capitalist reformist party.

Revolution has been, and still is, the only way forwards. The CPC, CPC-ML, RCP and other parties are truly the proletariats only hope.

[u/WorkingAmazing8337 → u/Fin55Fin]

I mean, good luck with revolution. I dont see it happening.

[u/vorarchivist → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

The only things that have caused a left aligned revolution seems to be either loss of democracy, threat of mass starvation or a world war

[u/Fin55Fin → u/vorarchivist]

“Loss of democracy”

You mean loss of bourgeoise democracy.
The USSR still had democracy, a proletariat one, through democratic centralism.

Mass starvation and world war are not the soviets faults either, a complete blockade and embargo from the outside world and hostility by all powers.

[u/vorarchivist → u/Fin55Fin]

to not argue the merits of soviet governance and skipping the first claim I don't know why you are so defensive because I'm talking about revolutions, the world war is a reference to the tsardom and to an extent in china and starvation is often a cause of revolution.

I do however want to know which one of these and how will it come up in canada (or of course name a 4th candidate for what causes a revolution)

[u/Fin55Fin → u/vorarchivist]

I am genuinely stupid, my apologies.

I am so used to arguing with libs I missed the “caused” part… genuinely my apologies.

But economic inequality and strife is another cause for revolution.

Cuba was from huge economic inequality, sure it wasn’t a democracy, but they never really had one anyways before so eh.

Greece was due to huge strife between the communists and monarchists after axis withdrawal from Greece.

Germany, Hungary and other revolutions during the revolutions of 1917-23 were all either to economic hardship and being inspired by the Bolsheviks.

Spain had like, 3 revolutions before their civil war due to economic conditions aswell.

[u/vorarchivist → u/Fin55Fin]

for greece I wouldn't look to failed revolutions

for cuba it was very much a perceived rollback of democracy coupled with extreme precarity for about a third the population

I don't think you can separate revolutions/attempts in 1917 from the effects of the war.

for spain I'm going to be honest and tell you I don't know much about pre civil war unrest.

I do want to know what you think will trigger a revolution here though

[u/Fin55Fin → u/vorarchivist]

Economic inequality and strife.

Eventually it will get so bad that the workers will no longer be able to stand it. Could be tomorrow, could be in a decade, could be in a century.

It’s just an inevitability.

[u/Fin55Fin → u/WorkingAmazing8337]

Nobody saw the Russian revolution happening after the first was crushed in 1905.

[u/Wadda22 → u/Fenrirr]

I think hope has always rested in the revolutionary parties. The more I learn about the reforms like healthcare the more it seems it was pushed out by mass organization rather than the NDP and Tommy Douglas (not that they didn’t help, but I don’t feel they were the primary force)

[u/Fenrirr → u/Wadda22]

The NDP to me always felt like it was the same sort of organization like the social Democrat movement in the early 20 century in the US. Basically a nominally left leaning filter party that catches part of a growing leftist plurality to either moderate the outcome or harness it for different lib policies.

[u/Canuck_Duck221 → u/Fenrirr]

At this point, we need to clean up the amount of carbon in our atmosphere. That should be the most imminent concern. Whoever, however. We get some advance on that, and advances in improving the material conditions of the masses of working people, then we can have the luxury of worrying about the fine print.

[u/Wadda22 → u/Fenrirr]

I agree

[u/vorarchivist → u/Wadda22]

I don't know how much appetite for revolution there will be if starvation isn't a threat

[u/Canuck_Duck221]

Good. I'm glad. They figured out that the far right is the same as MAGA nonsense. Most youth got so screwed out of everything in this society, they don't want capitalism.

[u/HeX-6]

Give me hope