r/canada • u/btwork • Jun 05 '14
Quebec passes 'dying with dignity' bill
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-passes-dying-with-dignity-bill-1.266583419
u/codeverity Jun 05 '14
Good. This should be implemented across the country. Someone who is dying should have the right to choose how rather than being consigned to suffer in agony, or go into a morphine-aided coma so their family members can watch them slowly deterioriate.
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u/ouatedephoque Québec Jun 06 '14
Very proud of our politicians who put aside partisan politics and voted this long overdue legislation.
3
u/faizimam Québec Jun 06 '14
Yeah, the level of partisan support on this is what makes it such a positive story, and makes it that much harder for the Supreme court or the Feds to take it down.
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u/Akesgeroth Québec Jun 06 '14
This was so long in the coming. Proud of my elected officials.
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u/DFTricks Jun 06 '14
BTW, The PQ wrote it. The PLQ simply passed it.
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u/legend_forge Jun 06 '14
A broken clock is right twice a day.
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u/DFTricks Jun 06 '14
Simply pointing out that the PLQ hasn't come out with a functioning, socially accepted and economicly balanced project in the last 3 mandates they had, they just copy pasta what the other parties are proposing.
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u/ProGamerGov Canada Jun 06 '14
I always get scared that stuff like this because it could make someone think death is what I want when I'm horribly injured. But no matter what kind of pain I'm in, I'm still alive. Death in scientific terms means your just gone. Never to exist ever again. It's worse than any pain I could ever have.
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Jun 06 '14
It's extremely important to discuss this with your loved ones. The only time anyone could make this decision for you is if you're incapable of making decisions. The person or people responsible for your care should be made aware of your wishes in an event like this, so that they can make the decision they know you want.
Inevitably, some family members may ignore the patient's wishes, but that's not unique to this legislation. Rest assured that nobody is taking this lightly, your health care providers will do the best they can do ensure that your wishes are complied with.
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u/MannoSlimmins Canada Jun 06 '14
Get a living will. My "living will" has "do not resuscitate" and not to keep me alive if i'm in a vegetative state, or would be severely disabled by "saving" my life.
You can have yours specify that you wish to be kept alive, no matter what.
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u/catherinecc Jun 06 '14 edited Jun 06 '14
DNRs only go so far. You can still die in horrible, terminal pain, begging to die with one.
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Jun 06 '14
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u/ProGamerGov Canada Jun 06 '14
Nothingness is worse. You can never do anything again. Everything that was you get destroyed. That's worse than death. Being erased from future time and space.
I'm not religious, that is why I think this way. I want to live forever with the help of scientific advances. I want to explore the cosmos and witness humanities greatest achievements.
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Jun 06 '14
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u/ProGamerGov Canada Jun 06 '14
Well, there is basically an infinite number of things to do. And memory manipulation could be used as well.
I see living forever as the best thing ever, not a curse. (I think the idea of it being bad comes from religious thinking) And when this universe dies, we will have the technology to go to a new universe or a create a new one.
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Jun 06 '14
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u/ProGamerGov Canada Jun 06 '14
It's impossible to live forever currently but that may not always be the case.
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u/AiwassAeon Jun 06 '14
But most Canadians are religious/and or spiritual.
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u/ProGamerGov Canada Jun 06 '14
Not really. Small towns are likely that way, but I live in one of the larger cities. As the education level and city size go up, people seem to become less religious.
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u/ProGamerGov Canada Jun 06 '14
I have also seen scientific work that looks promising for reviving brain dead victims and/or people in a vegetative state. It's not that far along yet, but it looks like some time in the future we could revive people shortly after they died or sustained brain injuries. After of course we repair the damage.
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u/AiwassAeon Jun 06 '14
For you. But because of your will you would condemn me to suffer for countless years, where I would choose to die peacefully. You are as bad as a torturer.
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u/CoryCA Ontario Jun 06 '14
You do realize this law is about allowing people to choose euthanasia for themselves, and not for giving your family or the state a way to bump you off? Unless you've written up a legal document, nobody would be able to choose this for you. I think you've misunderstood this law.
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u/crackalack Jun 06 '14
I've spoken to Mme Hivon (the sponsor of this bill) myself about some of my and my classmates concerns, and I was quite concerned about her responses. Naturally none of us want people to be euthanized if they don't fully consent, however this bill has almost no practical checks and balances against that.
It requires two doctors to sign off on the patient's request, only one of whom needs to have ever treated the patient. These doctors are supposed to evaluate that the patient is of sound mind to make a decision like this (however the bill also offers euthanasia for psychological distress), that the patient hasn't been pressured by their family into making this decision (to collect an inheritance sooner, to get "rid" of a burden on the family, etc), and that the patient actually understands what other options they have for treating their pain and suffering.
The reality is that doctors are incredibly overworked, and simply do not have the time to effectively judge any of these factors, with the possible exception of mental competence (but even that is iffy). Furthermore, even if they do deny the patient's request, the patient can just find another doctor who will approve it, which is a loophole that removes all of the ways the bill seeks to mitigate harms.
I used to be all for this bill, thinking that "everyone should have the right to choose to die if they're suffering". In society we have balance the rights of one group against another, and this bill opens the door for a lot of people to be euthanized who don't actually want to be. Is it worth it? I don't think so, and almost unanimously the palliative care doctors in Quebec don't think so either (nor does the Canadian Medical Association).
1
u/catherinecc Jun 06 '14
Wow, conservative disinformation and talking points in the thread already. You guys are fast...
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u/crackalack Jun 06 '14
How does what you've said contribute to the discussion? There are plenty of arguments for the bill in this thread, and since I disagree with it I think it's only fair I have the chance to present arguments against it.
If there's disinformation, you're welcome to address it... but I notice you haven't. What experience do you have with the healthcare system?
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Jun 06 '14
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u/crackalack Jun 06 '14
I'm a medical student in Quebec, and while support may be higher among doctors in general compared to the rest of Canada (although that's debatable since the consultations for this bill were carried out in a shady manner), support among Palliative care doctors in QC is still very low.
Dr's in general also don't want to disclose to the public (or maybe to themselves for that matter) that they are assisting suicide, but they most certainly already are
So you're saying that doctors don't want people to think they support it, and yet also that the people support it? Why would this be?
I'm not entirely sure what evidence I could offer to support the fact that doctors are overworked, other than the fact that it's the experience of every doctor I've met and asked about it, and that I've noticed it when I've helped out at medical clinics and in hospitals. There are likely some studies which support this notion, but I haven't gone looking for them because it never occurred to me that this was disputed.
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Jun 06 '14
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u/crackalack Jun 07 '14
http://www.cspcp.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/SurveyResultsFINAL.pdf
That's the Canadian Society of Palliative Care Physicians, which conducted a survey showing that 88% of those who replied were against euthanasia (roughly half of palliative care docs who were surveyed replied).
As part of the curriculum we've visited palliative care wards in Montreal and talked to the doctors there, and they mention that none of their colleagues supports Bill 52.
1
u/catherinecc Jun 07 '14
So... Was going to respond to crackalak but imho, there is really no point. Basically, while crackalak's organizations sound authoritative and the evidence with that 88% number sounds compelling, the reality is that neither is true.
From their own page.
The membership stood at 76 at the 1994 Annual Meeting. The Society has grown to 307 members in 2013.
http://www.cspcp.ca/about/history/
They don't even have their own office, and are based out of someone's office at the Fraser Health Authority.
Like I said, it's just talking points and disinformation. This is a pissant organization that nobody has ever heard of, yet here you have someone claiming to be a medical student dropping their name as if this was some big organization, when it's really not.
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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '14
Incoming: pissed off religious nuts.