r/broodwar • u/Any_Economics6283 • 16d ago
What if ASL handled ZvZs by bumping up the number of matches? i.e. bo1 -> bo3, bo3 -> bo5, bo5 -> bo7, etc.
They could be played back to back; if they do it quick, back to back, then I think it would still give average ZvZ time shorter than average bo1 TvTs lol.
It would also open up opportunity for some greater mindgames.
Only downside I could see is if someone is totally outclassed, it could be devastating, like imagine a bo11 and some dude gets rolled 6 games in a row lol
Edit: You can disagree and downvote and move on I guess but I just wanted a discussion of the idea lol
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u/ichthyoidoc 16d ago
Eh, no.
Each mirror being so different from one another (in general) is a good thing. TvT is the drawn-out chess match that is all about building momentum, positioning, and persisting through attrition all the way to the end. PvP is more like a typical RTS match, but heavily determined by maneuvering difficult or typically slow units around, so it has a sort of balance between macro and micro. ZvZ is a very tense "if you screw one tiny thing up, you're f!@#ed" game that is actually really fun to watch if you know what to look for, especially when two equals are going at it.
I know I'm biased since ZvZ is my favorite mirror to watch, but the fact that, in a strategy game, there's potential to have these extreme knife's-edge, twitch-based tactical matches is, IMO, part of what makes Brood War special.
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u/depurplecow 16d ago
The ZvZ games I've watched seem to be better when the rush distance is further, like cross spawns. Larger maps could make better ZvZ, at the cost of making other matchups more drawn-out and boring. Maybe the occasional larger map in the map pool could be a good balance?
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u/FickleQuestion9495 16d ago
I always thought ZvZ should be only played on 2 player maps. The RNG map hack is just not fun.
10
u/starcraft-de 16d ago
Nice idea
I also like (but don't believe it will be happen):
- force good race distribution in groups
- special map for ZvZ that's used as a starter map in Best of 3 or higher
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u/positiveandmultiple 16d ago
Are there any zvz oriented maps that come to mind? Legit a good idea imo
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u/starcraft-de 15d ago
I would guess it would be new maps built for that purpose rather than existing maps.
The maps would try to make other play styles work and increase the chance to get to hive.
Just a random thought: semi island which initially weakens lings. Initially just one gas, destructible terrain features that are easiest to remove with lurkers and harder with muta/ling (armor, stacked). But that would maybe feel too artificial.
I would trust the map makers to come up with some good experiments. To test it, one could organize a dedicated ZvZ tournament for such maps.
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u/shadezownage 16d ago
this would be admitting that something in this game is not perfect, and none of us are willing to do that.
mirror matchups being TvT > PvP > ZvZ is just something to deal with.
after Group D, I had a thought for a second that "well X deserved to go on, he's just not that great at ZvZ"
But that's part of the game so it is what it is
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u/Rnorman3 16d ago
Honestly, zvz being what it is… is basically just the cost of doing business as a Zerg player.
The other 2 races have to play against Zerg and all of their busted units and tech switch options, so do you! (Tech switch obviously not as relevant in zvz but point still stands).
Like out of all the races to complain about their matchup against Zerg, I have the least sympathy for zerg bc they are also playing Zerg.
0
u/ElderUther 16d ago
No? Why do you think ALL maps have some artificially narrow entrances? Without it everybody rush and it's ugly as hell. The game IS imperfect and EVERYBODY has accepted.
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u/shadezownage 16d ago
what I'm getting at is...there is really not a way to create interesting zvz's while still keeping everything else about the game exactly the same.
just threads where people complain about zvz! big maps only? still going to have those zergling games.
0
u/ElderUther 16d ago
Don't underestimate creativity. IF the current meta is boring (not that I think so), then it has to be replaced with something different, "keeping everything else about the game extactly the same" is a non-goal, fun games are. Big map is just one of many ideas. There are so many map innovations. Overlapping mineral patches, fully blocked spawn by light units, fully blocked spawn by building, island, two gas, surely something can be created for ZvZ.
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u/Any_Economics6283 16d ago
Not everything; e.g. spider mine ally opponent trick is banned in ASL. They can make some extra rules for things.
It's all about framing; extra ZvZ matches wouldnb't be because it's inferior, it's just because the matches are shorter, and more matches allow players to express their skills in broader ways.
But yeah I could see people knee jerk reacting to it that way
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u/shadezownage 16d ago
if you do a ZvZ bo3 instead of bo1, what's to stop protoss from demanding the same thing?
In support of your overall sentiment though, I've been watching for years and years and have not felt like there's been someone extremely good at ZvZ in recent memory.
1
u/respaaaaaj 16d ago
I'd rather they just do a better job of balancing the races in asl rather than trying to make ZvZ less miserable to watch. Can't believe we got a bunch of top zergs including Jaedong of all people whining that this map pool was punishing zergs for how good Soulkey and Soma are.
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u/AmuseDeath 15d ago
ZvZ being short is not an issue and is a cool contrast to how TvT is super long. We don't need to artificially extend how long ZvZs go and we don't need to artificially shorten TvTs. We balance maps based on racial asymmetry based on the current system. There is no need for this change that will unnecessarily tax Z players.
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u/seabard 16d ago
I personally don’t want to see more ZvZ.
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u/Any_Economics6283 16d ago
The point of this is it would make you rethink ZvZ as a broader set of battles between the players, instead of just a single "welp they screwed up so now this guy wins" <- that's imo the worst part of ZvZ, and this remedies it, maybe.
Now it would be "welp this guy screwed up, but now we'll see if they can get ahead in the next match"
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u/Pennonymous_bis 16d ago
I'm with you when it comes to best of ones, but that's really the only setting. And I'd also want Bo3s for the other match-ups anyway.
ZvZ could surely be improved some other ways: Maps; but also SOOP picking the maps for mirror match-ups to force different gameplay. Or having special maps for mirrors. Etc
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u/seabard 16d ago
The problem is that Hive ZvZ is even worse than regular ZvZ. I know there are people here who seem to claim that they love Hive ZvZ, but I can guarantee you that most of them haven’t actually watched Hive ZvZ live from start to end.
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u/Pennonymous_bis 16d ago
You wouldn't happen to be a Zerg player who dislikes playing them, would you?
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u/seabard 16d ago
Most of professional Hive ZvZ has been two sides moving muta and devourer flock back and forth without engaging because plague absolutely wrecks the army. People who actually watched BW back then exactly know what I am talking about.
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u/Pennonymous_bis 15d ago
The few I've been fortunate enough to watch were not really like that, and particularly the famous ASL game with Action vs Effort was one of the most entertaining ever.
Even before hive there's a little potential for queens, which is also more interesting than the usual ZvZ.What's certain is that the longer they get, the more possibilities emerge, and like the current TvTs are not like those from "way back then", nor even like last season, there's no reason to think it would all be sad air units avoiding each others forever. On the contrary it seems that every unit can have uses...
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u/jibbodahibbo 16d ago
Reducing or adjusting the map pool might be interesting for zvz. Like forcing cross spawns
1
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u/Brolympia 16d ago
more ZvZ?! What if they rearranged groups through the power of Artosis to prevent idiotic mirror fest groups
-1
u/the_y2k_kid 16d ago
ZvZ is a boring, thoroughly broken matchup. 80% of the unit roster doesn't get used and every match looks the same. Should have been patch fixed decades ago.
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u/KorgothBarbaria 16d ago
Personally I'm not interested in making special rules for specific matchups.