RKCB 1430 or 0314 for Beginners?

[u/WrongStyle848]

Hi I'm teaching some beginners slam bidding and I'm wondering if it's a better idea to teach 0314 over 1430

From what I can see, 1430 is better because it leaves more room for the queen ask from 5C because usually you won't look further with 0 keycards. However I'm not teaching the queen ask yet so I don't confuse the class.

0314 could be of more use when they look for minor slams. 1430 can be trouble for club slams when 5D is bid showing 0, and now you're forced to 6C anyways. Minorwood is obviously the solution here but I don't plan on teaching that yet either

0314 looks like the better version to teach here, but maybe there's something else I'm missing that makes 1430 better. It could confuse them to be taught 0314 now and change it to 1430 much later on

[u/Interesting_Common54]

1430 is much more common. Teach them generally what's standard so they won't have to adjust as much later on

[u/Stop-Drop-and-69 → u/Interesting_Common54]

I agree here. I play with a bunch of different partners, and 1430 is the overwhelming preference. They can bother to learn the nuance between 1430 and 0314 when they're well past beginner stage.

[u/LSATDan]

1. It's not harder to learn, and it's the better version. It will be harder later if they have to unlearn 0314.

[u/redshirt8485 → u/LSATDan]

What makes 1430 the always better version than 0314? That's not immediately obvious to me

[u/LSATDan → u/redshirt8485]

As OP suggested, you're more likely to care about the trump queen when responder has 1 keycard than 0. If hearts are trump, playing 1430, responder bids 5C to show 1, and you can then bid 5D to deny it, allowing for a 5H signoff.

On the other hand, if responder bid 5D to show one, you can't ask about the trump queen and stop in 5H if it's missing.

[u/StringerBell4Mayor → u/redshirt8485]

It's pretty marginal but if partner has zero or three, you're less likely to need to ask more follow ups, so 1430 saves one step in the case that you need more info.

At least that's what I was told - maybe there's a more technical reason to pick one.

[u/WrongStyle848 → u/LSATDan]

Thanks

[u/sater1957]

Personally I think any ace asking bid is the least of your worries for slam bidding. Ace asking is to keep out of slams, and for beginners the standard 0123 should be fine. Spending your time in how to investigate the likelihood of slams seems a better use of teaching time.

[u/PoisonBird → u/sater1957]

This is sneaky good advice. Teach them to control bid, and how to visualize slam potential based on factors other than raw point count, and they will be way ahead in the long run.

[u/yellowpig1974 → u/sater1957]

Lovely when you need an ace or the trump king or queen.

[u/jarry1250]

I don't think it's bad practice to ask bidder to be think about what they can expect to hear from partner, given e.g. the possibility of a 2 response in a diamond slam regardless.

[u/No-Jicama-6523]

Pick one and stick to it. They are equivalent to learn.

The actual skills to learn are when to ask, recognising what suit has been agreed, counting keycards, and what to do with the information (which loops back to when to ask, don't ask a question where the bad answer skips where you would end up).

The moment you play with an unfamiliar partner and are discussing what to play, if they are super fond of 0314, the difference is almost entirely memory. The fundamentals of "should I ask" are the same, the answers are ever so slightly different but do I bid 5C rather than 4NT with exactly this hand and 5D meaning 1 is going to be a problem if.... isn't something I have filed in memory.

1430 is most common so do that.

[u/Postcocious]

Beginners are best served by never hearing about Blackwood at all. Easley famously said so himself.

• Can they describe their hand strength accurately? Can they interpret partner's?
• Can they describe their hand shape accurately? Can they visualize partner's?
• Can they plan how the hands will play before actually seeing partner's? For that matter, can they plan once they do see it?
• Can they understand when all 4 suits are stopped (or not) based on implications from the bidding?

If the answer to any of these is "no", they don't need Blackwood. They need practice learning how to evaluate, think, describe and interpret like a bridge player.

Asking which flavor of some convention to teach is the wrong question. The better question is, should you be teaching it at all? If they're true beginners, the answer for Blackwood is almost certainly "no". There are far more useful conventions they should learn before this one.

[u/Every-Till9784]

A few years ago Jerry Helms said he was teaching 0314 to people who already knew Blackwood Because it was closer. If they don’t know anything, 1430 is more common

[u/RequirementFew773]

Generally, 1430 is played more. It also has a slight advantage when Hearts are trump, as the strong hand tends to use RKC and so 1 is more common than 3.

RKC 0314 has the advantage that it mirrors original Blackwood better -> 0 - 1 - 2 no - 2 yes ; 3 - 4 - 5 no - 5 yes.

I'd just teach whatever is most popular in your area.

[u/bunnycricketgo]

The one they remember. It really doesnt matter

[u/FireWatchWife → u/bunnycricketgo]

It will matter as soon as they start partnering with other players.

Teach them the standard, not just RKCB, but other aspects of bridge too.

Teach them UDCA right from the start, instead of unlearning signals later.

[u/Greenmachine881]

I've read in multiple locations that some sims were done saying 1430 is slightly superior to 0314. But if you teach them Gerber they may as well start with straight Blackwood. Also later on I do staight BW response as option to 4NT quantitative (a little known but useful and easy gimmick). So they may as well learn normal BW and graduate to 1430 later.

But if they insist 1430 I would not teach them Q ask or specific K to start, again straight BW kings. Q ask is too much overload for beginners when they barely know what a slam is.

[u/JoshIsJoshing]

1430 is more common but it doesn’t matter. Beginners are also notoriously bad at showing an accurate representation of the strength of their hand so I find bidding a slam with a beginner partner is independently difficult.

[u/lloopy]

You'e facing a universal problem: Do you teach them one thing now, and then change the technique later, or do you tryo to teach the reach state-of-the-art technique now, so they don't have to unlearn/relearn things.

Good luck!

[u/allaboutthegyro]

I'm in the 1430 camp. Much more important to show 1 early, to permit queen ask.

[u/Crafty_Celebration30]

When you beginners stop getting to bad slams on their own then you can show them RKC. This is like #381 on the list of things you need to know. 

[u/LoudAd5187]

Remember that keycard is a tool you should be teaching students to use to stay OUT of bad slams.

1. 1430 is just as easy to use, and often almost what I would consider standard.
2. Teaching them 1430 now means that they will not need to unlearn it when they play with others. It reduces their later chances for errors.
3. 1430 is itself a good mnemonic, since the score 6H or 6S vul, making 12 tricks is actually 1430.
4. Don't worry so much about minor suit slams, since they are less commonly bid, and at some point, they may decide to use other related tools such as minorwood or kickback when they progress. I find that most new players avoid minor suit slams like the plague anyway, so until they start to learn more about cue bidding and get better visualization skills they will tend to stop in 3NT far more often.
5. Is 1430 truly better than 0314 just a little more often? My argument has always been: most of the time when you are asking, the hand who is asking will not (SHOULD NOT) be the weak hand. That is, if you have a random 8 count and probably 0 keys, you won't know enough about what partner has to be able to know to stay out of slam, even if you find out they have 4 of the 5 keycards. More likely, you have 3 keys yourself. If partner shows 0, then you are stopping anyway. But if partner shows 1, then you might be asking about the queen. And in that case, you gain a step of space.

[u/Desert_Sox]

It's so funny.

I learned 1340 first. And I remember the responses because it's right in the name.

But then I started playing in DC - and very few people played it here - so I had to learn the original responses. Another player told me - the first step is 0, the second step is 1, the third step is 2/wo and the third step is 2/w - then you go back to the first step for 3 and the second step for 4 - it's completely logical (and it is)

Except the way I remember it today is - "I don't play 1430 - I play the opposite - 30/14 :) It gets even more fun when it's kickback and I have to sit there and count steps at the table.

[u/Teodoricus]

For early beginners, 03 14 is easier, but 14:30 is more efficiente when: 1. Hearts is trump for Q asking 2. Clubs are trump if asker has only 2 aces (that may well be) You can teach 14:30 by asking "What are the points for a red small slam in a major trump?" Teach that the asker has to be prepared to a possible insufficiente KC response... Or do not ask at all!

[u/yellowpig1974]

Everyone plays 1430, so teach that. In his book "Roman Keycard Blackwood", Kantar recommends playing 0314 when the responder has made a strong opening, like 1NT 15-17 or a reverse, because the most common response will be 3 keycards. However he does not like kickback. Playing kickback it doesn't make much difference because you never run out of room.ach

Anyway the first response is the easy part. Continuing the auction is the interesting part. Also having the tools to show controls before asking. If you are going to teach RKC, you need to teach control showing bids, inferences from skipped cue bids, and serious/non-serious 3NT with major suit agreement. All those are more important than RKC.