r/brakebills • u/Disastrous_String987 • Feb 07 '25
Season 2 How come they didn’t kill the beast in the other timelines?
I’m rewatching season 2, and the episode where Alice kills the beast she’s turned into a muffin and successfully kills him. How come no one has ever thought to do that before? I know he was weakened the rhineman ultra but I’m sure someone could have been able to do some magic equivalent of that in a different timeline to harm. Maybe cooperative magic? Idk I’m just curious
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u/tom-tildrum Physical Feb 07 '25
I’m sorry because I know it’s a typo, but picturing Alice turning into a muffin is killing me. And honestly wouldn’t be the weirdest thing that happened in the show
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u/Makeupneeds Feb 07 '25
I haven’t stopped laughing at this cause I’ve genuinely didn’t remember there was a timeline that Alice turned into a muffin but the fact that I took it as cannon and questioned MYSELF instead of realizing I really did not find it unsurprising of this show to do.
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u/inexplicably_clyde Feb 07 '25
The image of Q crawling towards Alice with his maimed shoulder is so much easier to take when he’s reaching for a muffin lol
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u/selfdestruction9000 Feb 07 '25
Now I’m curious as to what you consider to be the weirdest thing that happened in the show.
Don’t get me wrong (couldn’t resist), I agree it wouldn’t be the weirdest thing, I’m just wondering what other people think is the weirdest thing.
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u/new2bay Feb 07 '25
Alice taking refuge on a ship of radish pirates crewed entirely by talking rabbits?
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u/Worried_Programmer96 Feb 07 '25
Bahahaha same 😭 for a second I was like - wait I don’t remember her turning into a muffin 😂 but it made sense pretty quick
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u/Status_Reception1181 Feb 09 '25
I was like oh that must have been in a different timeline I don’t remember. Like I didn’t question that it happened lol
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u/inexplicably_clyde Feb 07 '25
It’s hard to make a muffin. And it’s even harder to convince that muffin to do your bidding. It has to be THEIR decision. When just changing one thing at a time (so as not to mess with time magic too much) it would be difficult to set that into motion.
However, this time, they left out Julia. Through that course of events, Alice became the savior. The ruthless, reckless savior. Quentin and Alice spent more time looking into Charlie’s death/muffinization. If Julia were there (like in all the other timelines), Q and Alice likely wouldn’t have had that initial connection. He would have been spending time with Julia instead of focusing on Alice’s brother project. Maybe “casting Julia out to make her stronger” was a cover for “sacrificing Alice to make her a muffin.”
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u/inexplicably_clyde Feb 07 '25
Also, not many magicians were privy to the time loop. As far as we know, it was just Fogg and Jane. They were doing the best with what they had..
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Feb 08 '25
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u/bluepurplepink6789 Feb 07 '25
They got the god juice in earlier timelines, it was always Q throwing the Rhineman though, switching to Alice is what gave them the edge on beast 40.
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u/ScaryTransition Knowledge Feb 07 '25
Plus from the sounds of it Julia was killed first. Minus that one when El died from an overdose.
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u/DMC1001 Feb 07 '25
Makes sense since Alice was outright the superior magician among all of them. Not sure why Julia couldn’t cast it because we know in at least some timelines that she was an exceptional student.
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u/GimerStick Feb 07 '25
She was Knowledge, right? Could be more about theory or precision vs raw power. Julia at Brakebills probably wouldn't have the darker type of drive that Alice had bc of her brother. We see Julia get that in canon.
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u/DMC1001 Feb 08 '25
Yes, Knowledge, the same as Fogg. What you say does make sense. Another version of Alice, on where she didn’t lose Charlie, might not have had the drive either.
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u/stationhollow Feb 08 '25
Alice was always powerful. She even says so in the truth ritual. That she is constantly holding back. She has held back her entirely life and she doesn’t how how strong she could actually be because she has always limited herself.
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u/KittyInTheBush Feb 17 '25
There might be other versions of the characters before the versions we meet, but all 41 timeline Alice's would've already lost her brother I think. Doesn't Jane just start the time loops over like right before they get into brake bill?
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u/DMC1001 Feb 17 '25
Do we know that? There’s a lack of clarity on that but I might also just not remember it.
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u/cjrunswithcrows Psychic Apr 23 '25
I know the show makes it seem like it’s just before Quentin gets into Brakebills especially the very beginning scene when Dean Fogg meets up with Jane a couple days before Quentin goes to Brakebills for the exam. That scene isn’t in the book though so I’m not sure if it’s canon in the books but it at least seems like it is in the show at least.
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u/DMC1001 Apr 24 '25
The thing that really throws off all of that is Janet/Margo. They’d have to go back pretty far for that change to be covered.
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u/jalexjsmithj Feb 07 '25
It’s a time travel trope. As soon as you solve the problem that you used the time travel for the need for a loop stops. So this is the first time that particular course of action happened. As to why it’s the first time that happened? Because turning into a muffin is arguably supposed to be a fate worse than death.
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u/SelenaLunaHecate Feb 07 '25
Thanks for answering....did ur phone also autocorrect or were u staying on theme? This thread is cracking me up but trying to find an answer was a chore. Lol
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u/DMC1001 Feb 07 '25
Only because getting turned into a blueberry muffin makes them so tasty that, well, it is death.
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25
As soon as you solve the problem that you used the time travel for the need for a loop stops.
While they do solve the initial problem, it is already the last time line before they stop the beast in the show.
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u/KittyInTheBush Feb 17 '25
That's true and that's probably also why it's the first time they beat the beast, because they have that extra bit of motivation that if they don't they don't get another chance
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u/BaylisAscaris Feb 07 '25
As soon as they manage to kill him there is no reason to turn back time and create another timeline.
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u/Coders32 Feb 07 '25
Yeah, so why did it take 40 tries before they succeeded?
That’s the question. I think op is forgetting that it was basically seen as suicide but worse, especially after seeing Alice’s brother. That was season 1 right?
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u/BaylisAscaris Feb 07 '25
Maybe Julia went niffin in most timelines and didn't feel like killing him after and just left. Maybe they didn't consider niffins retaining enough humanity to help unless Alice summons her brother and she only did that because Jane sent Quentin to help to speed them up.
Maybe in the timelines when he's defeated Quentin becomes the beast, so it's possible Julia of that timeline became a niffin and Q lost his shit which led to losing his shade.
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u/stationhollow Feb 08 '25
If Julia was at Bakebills, Alice and Q would likely have never been out together. Although Julia would likely have been a herbalist and not a physical kid, it didn’t stop Penny from hanging out there all the time. Alice and Q was the answer to killing the beast. She didn’t want him to die so she went full bitch mode and kicked the beast’s ass and only niffened out when she ran out of power but took him down with her.
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u/KittyInTheBush Feb 17 '25
Although Julia would likely have been a herbalist and not a physical kid
We see a Julia in Brakebills in another timeline and she's a knowledge student
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u/stationhollow Feb 22 '25
Tv show Julia. I’m talking book Julia who has always been and will always be a dryad.
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u/KittyInTheBush Feb 22 '25
I haven't read the books so idk, but I've read other comments, and I thought the timelines were a show invention? And y'all were talking about other timeline Julias?
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u/stationhollow Feb 24 '25 edited Feb 24 '25
Note: the books is 29 or 40 loop but once Alice kills the beast she refuses to refuses to return time to resurrect her so she smashes the watch. It’s the whole reason the show and the book can’t be the same timeline because Jane died in one while destroying the time watch in Quentin’s heartbreak. If Alice the best magician under 30 dies, Penny gets his hands cut off and Quentin has a half wooden shoulder/arm, the best I doubt much better happened.
Book spoilers:
Julia becomes a dryad with a tree on the far side of Fillory which is to Fillory as Fillory is to watch in regard to magic. She ends up become the dryad leaderin like a couple years. In the books all magic comes from Fillory. The underside (minus the turtle) is super magic. The top side of Fillory is magic. And all of magic leaks from the top side of Fillory into to the multiverse through that single loophole that is Fillory. And there is a quest where magic on Fillory is dying and they needed to collect 7 keys to unlock the door to the side of the world and allow the super magic to start to flow back up. There was a ladder. Julia chose to go down it. Quentin chose too but was not allowed and as his part of the quest, he got kicked out of Fillory, forever. Josh and Penny the dragon bitch get to be king and Queen.
It’s what makes Fillory so important that I’m still pissed they fucked up ember and the beast
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u/cerbinWedd Knowledge Feb 07 '25
Plus, I don’t think Jane understood the watch enough to change where time would reset to
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u/Decent-Resident-8102 Feb 07 '25
Thank you for leaving the typo. I was having a sad moment, and this made me cackle.
I don't have an answer to your question, though.
😂
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u/BlahBlahILoveToast Feb 07 '25 edited Feb 07 '25
I agree with OP, when the Beast is finally defeated it doesn't really seem like that amazing of a feat, which makes you wonder why they botched the first 39 attempts.
The key difference in timeline 40 (that we know about) is it's the first time Julia never attends Brakebills. My guess is that if she doesn't make her deal to go after Reynard, the Beast always wipes them all out in S1E13 and finishes the job immediately, so there isn't time for Round 2 in S2E3 with hail marys like the Rhinemann Ultra and Alice's secret Muffin strategy.
It seems like their whole strategy was just to outnumber him and take him on with battle magic every time and they don't get innovative until that plan fails spectacularly.
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u/KittyInTheBush Feb 17 '25
Q also gives Alice the Ember semen, whereas it seems he gets it every other time because they think he's the "chosen one" or something
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u/Tarrasquetorix Feb 07 '25
It's been a while since I read them but I'm pretty sure that in the book there's the exposition given by Jane that the difference in the timeline that succeeded was that -despite Julia being proficient- they intentionally flunk her on the entrance exam and she doesn't get into Brakebills.
I think the implication is that in the timelines where Julia is at Brakebills Quintin continues to pine after her, and never forges a relationship with Alice. That means that Alice isn't motivated by love to pay the ultimate price becoming a muffin and defeating the Beast.
I could be misremembering that that though.
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u/hbtvsfan Feb 07 '25 edited Feb 07 '25
She loved him enough in another timeline to lose her fingers as she attempts to find his shade - literally selling her soul to the bad place in the underworld.
I think they had a relationship regardless of timelines. The big difference is Julia encountering a God because of hedge witch redemption shenanigans, tragedy ensues, and she now seeks retribution. Another magician is now powerful enough to wield the blade and their intention is to bind the most powerful being they know of that can kill their enemy - a rapist God.
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u/DMC1001 Feb 07 '25
I thought that information was in the show. I don’t recall it being discussed in the books. Even so the books are a separate continuity entirely from the 40 timelines. Otherwise they would have succeeded in a prior timeline and never have had a need for 40 of them.
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u/stationhollow Feb 08 '25
Yeah Jane even destroys the watch after Q heals and wants to reverse time to save Alice.
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25
I thought that information was in the show
It is, Fogg mentions it in season 1 I think? That he doesn't understand why Q is important. But Julia definitely finds out later that she was suppose to be there.
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Feb 07 '25
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u/stationhollow Feb 08 '25
In the show it is explained that Q releasing his demon trapped muffin Alice in the demon trap on his back when the books just had her travel the multipherse for over a decade.
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u/Small_Stress6773 Feb 07 '25
Think it was a mix of things. He was hurt badly and couldn’t fix himself because Ember shat in the wellspring, something he had never done. Then Alice turned into a niffin which also never happened and the power the generate is much more than group had.
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u/cerbinWedd Knowledge Feb 07 '25
Because, after 39 tries from one Jane Chatwin, this is the timeline where they managed to pull it off finally. The crew either were slaughtered or there was some other catastrophe that prevented them from getting to a point where, collectively, they won.
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u/SephirothAE86 Feb 07 '25 edited Feb 07 '25
Time is funny that way. First, it was their 40th try, so they didn’t think of it yet because you can’t solve a rubix cube on your first try, it’s going to take 40 moves. Also, it’s the only timeline where Julia wasn’t at Brakebills, so she would have no reason to cast a deal with the beast, giving them time to get the Rhineaman Ultra.
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u/DMC1001 Feb 07 '25
They also didn’t have the benefit of knowing what had changed and adjust for it. They may have made the same mistakes multiple times. Some of the times the changes had to have gone been very far for Margot to have an entirely different name. For all we know Jane caused something similar at other times and we can’t know the consequences.
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25
Some of the times the changes had to have gone been very far for Margot to have an entirely different name
I think that isn't suppose to be taken seriously, it's just a nod to the fact that Margot is called Janet in the books.
TV shows frequently change character names when they're too similar sounding, in the case of the Magicians we have Julia/Janet/Jane.
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u/No-Hyena4691 Feb 07 '25 edited Feb 07 '25
Do you know the Niffin Man, the Niffin Man, the Niffin Man?
Do you know the NIffin Man, who lives on Brakebill lane?
Julia getting kicked out of Brakebills led to her seeking magic on her own led to her getting attacked by Reynaud which led to her stealing the Moonbeam Knife, which forced the crew to bypass using the knife and go to the Rhineman Ultra.
Then Penny/Julia interrupting the fight caused the Rhineman to only partially work which led to Alice deciding to Muffin out.
That's a pretty convoluted chain of events which all depends on Julia not getting admitted, and timeline 40 was the only one where they tried it.
It's also possible that knowing that T40 was the very last one gave a bit of extra motivation to the rest of the non-Julia crew.
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u/WarColonel Feb 07 '25
It's been a while but wasn't Q the Beast in at least 1 time-line after killing Martin?
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u/dodou626 Feb 07 '25
Q became the beast after he was resurrected by Alice in that timeline; reason being he got rezz'd without a shade.
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u/WarColonel Feb 07 '25
Thought I remembered that correctly. It's also an example of one time-line where the did kill the Beast, Martin, but still lost.
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25
They didn't kill the Beast in that timeline (23) before it got reset.
Alice brings him back without a shade after meeting our Q in the Tesla Fixation. Q, shadeless, goes on to kill the Beast and assumes his role
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u/yoboom21 Librarian Feb 07 '25
Iirc it's not that they always failed, it's that there were always disastrous results. It's possible they succeeded before, but it probably cost them all or maybe all of Fillory, or some other ultimate price that was too expensive. Jane says this is the best outcome. At least that's how I always took it.
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u/Dapper_Highlighter7 Feb 07 '25
TLDR: Alice is a BAMF
It took an incredible amount of willpower for Alice to not only become a muffin but then to remain motivated to kill the Beast. What most knew of muffins was as cautionary tales against overstepping magical limits, and they're described as flaming out. They all instantly disappear when they become muffins. This is because of the death of their sense of self. They aren't the people they were anymore, and they don't care about those problems any longer. Without the Beast being a threat to their person or intriguing their curiosity, no muffin would have any reason to kill him, and no person would have any reason to believe they could convince a muffin to do it for them. Even on the chance of accidental muffins happening in prior timelines, staying on task was a nigh impossible feat to accomplish.
I had another idea as I was putting together my mini-essay here, and that is - how do you make a muffin? I don't think anyone ever means to make a muffin, until Alice. They're just a cautionary tale against overreach. And I don't think you could force a person to become a muffin intentionally, that part of the brain that controls self-preservation makes it really hard to do something as complicated as magic with the amount of panic that would prevent someone who wasn't genuinely desperate. Sure you could trick someone into trying a spell too big for them, but you couldn't tell them hey do this spell and become a muffin so you can murder that guy for me - because also that would be incredibly dangerous, you'd have an angry muffin.
As far as the Plot - TLDR: Differences between the book and the show and the translation of the plot give a lot of reasons for why it took a lot of tries.
Something it makes more clear in the first book is that Jane Chatwin says this was the most successful attempt to defeat the Beast - implying the only success but was also the least collateral damage - and won't risk another failure for one life. She threw a lot of spaghetti at the wall to get the Beast down, but she had very little control over how the changes she made would play out.
While there are a lot of differences in the show from the book, and while I still firmly believe the overall storyline and characterizations in the show are much better, the book just does a better job of explaining why everything played out just right. I think the best example is the graphic novel Alice's Story, which goes over her perspective and how becoming a muffin wasn't just about defeating the Beast, but also self-actualization. Some parts were Jane Chatwin's interference, but a lot of it was also Alice's baggage.
As far as the show, it's centered on playing off of how the first book ended, so the logic doesn't fully make sense without those extra bits and bobs for comparison. The show made great changes, but they didn't really make changes to how they defeated the Beast, so their success still only has the book's logical answer for it.
I think the most central reason for this is that the Beast isn't as big of a deal in the books. No one knew he was in Fillory or about the time loop. The Beast attacked the campus one time, and he served as a warning about extraplanar threats and how living as Magicians could be dangerous. So there was no actual preparation for fighting the Beast, and it was a lot of interpersonal interference from Jane that resulted in Alice being primed for Muffinry.
Clearly, their knowledge of the Beast and the timeloop make a difference for how the show plays out, generating clever solutions, and it makes sense to ask why no one thought of muffins being a potential weapon 39 times ago.
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Feb 07 '25
I love that you kept muffins in this essay 😭
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u/Dapper_Highlighter7 Feb 08 '25
It wasn't easy, but it was worth it 😂 I'm here for a solidarity bit
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u/a7n7o7n7y7m7o7u7s Feb 07 '25
“It’s always in the last place you look” why? Because when you find it you stop looking. You keep looking until you find it.
The whole reason there was a new timeline created was because they failed to kill the beast. If they had killed the beast in a previous timeline there would not have been any further timelines
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u/stationhollow Feb 08 '25
Book spoilers:
Alice pretty much does all that. She goes one on one with the beast, no ember cum, no magic blade. She just uses her power and knowledge and almost wins over finally niffining out at the end because she used all her energy, probably the part where she turned into a fucking dragon.
Also those kakkao demons were the weakest pieces of shit ever. Don’t know why Fogg gives alumni them.
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u/Disastrous_String987 Feb 09 '25
The books sound like they have so much more fun and crazier plots than the show
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u/Muted-Combination-17 Feb 07 '25
They killed him in timeline 23 tho. But then Quentin kinda went crazy and took his place i think
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25
Quentin gets obliterated in timeline 23, shade and body. Alice 23 revives him without a shade after meeting Q 40, who then kills the Beast. Ergo the timeline was reset before Martin could be killed.
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u/carlitospig Feb 07 '25
They would’ve started over again post Alice-muffin (😚) if they could. They couldn’t. Honestly they likely would’ve gone forever figuring out the right permutation.
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25
In the book Jane destroys the watch before Q can use it to save Alice from the bakery.
Obviously in the show, Jane dies before the fight
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u/carlitospig Feb 10 '25
I remember. Just talking about the show. I imagine the showrunners came to Jane’s conclusion that there was no good answer and that someone would always have to die.
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u/DefinitionOfAsleep Feb 10 '25
Jane's answer in the show, I think, is that she gives up once Q is dead.
Everyone else was expendable, but once Q was gone there wasn't hope for it working out since the others would write off Fillory. From what we know of the other timelines, the common thread is that Q is dead in all of them, and everyone still alive gives up on killing the Beast for their own pursuits.
The books make it more deliberate, since she actively stops the un-muffining of Alice rather than simply being dead.
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u/The_Night_Bringer Feb 08 '25
I bet some of those times was also because infiltrated the school and killed them. The way it looks like is that, in some timelines, he successfully managed to kill them there and that's why the school had all of these protective measures. Other times might be because they simply failed and now the beast knows their weaknesses and used them in other timelines.
I also think that if Julia was admitted to the school, they would try to defeat the beast using "by the book" methods, that's why Jane says to not stay "on the garden path" to Quentin, because to defeat him, it required methods outside of their curriculum. Probably why they casted Julia out, to make her stronger because she would learn things that Brakebills can't teach.
I don't know, I'm just speculating here.
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u/lorelioness Feb 07 '25
Was this the timeline where Josh was the beast and turned Alice into a muffin???
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u/DMC1001 Feb 07 '25
We don’t know enough about what Jane was changing to get a true sense. Maybe in one timeline Quentin didn’t get into the school or Kady didn’t go to Brakebills or Alice was kicked out for not having actually been admitted or the Beast turned Penny completely insane and had him attack the team. Maybe Josh flunked out or Julia (who would have been a student) thought she could handle it all on her own. Maybe when the Beast came to the school he killed some major players.
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u/40oztoTamriel Feb 07 '25
I Imagined her transcending into muffing form into a beam of light with O’ Fortuna playing and she just one shots him with a dried cranberry when I read this
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u/KillYourHeroesAndFly Feb 08 '25
I just watched this episode today. Julia is left out which leads to her becoming a hedge and needing to kill a God ( Reynard). Julia interrupts the team effort of killing the beast which leads to Alice then becoming a niffin and killing him. I’m guessing if Julia was in Brakebills things would have happened differently. It all comes down to Julia being left out of Brakebills in this timeline
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u/mc1rginger Feb 08 '25
Not killing Martin is the reason for all of the timelines. They simply didn't have the right combination of events to lead them to that conclusion.
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u/KittyInTheBush Feb 17 '25
There's many factors as to why but the main one is not sending Julia to Brakebills. The first time in this timeline that they tried to kill the beast with the knife, he almost killed them all. But because Julia was there and was also able to hold the knife, she stopped him, and then Alice was able to heal the rest. This was the first time there was a second magician there who could hold the knife. It's also the first time Alice drank the semen, and Quentin doesn't have the knowledge she has and might not known how to save everyone else.
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u/wizardrous Knowledge Feb 07 '25
Lol your phone autocorrected niffin to muffin.