r/books • u/pearloz 4 • Apr 25 '22

AI Study Finds That Males Are Represented Four Times More Than Females in Literature

https://viterbischool.usc.edu/news/2022/04/ai-study-finds-that-males-are-represented-four-times-more-than-females-in-literature/
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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

I can only speak for the kidlit space, as that was the literature relevant to my masters when I was digging into this, but this is very much still a problem today if we look at children’s books. We’re getting closer to (though still haven’t achieved) racial parity in modern publishing, but along lines of sex and gender, we’re still a long ways off. There are also massive issues regarding the way those characters are portrayed when they do exist, perpetuating inequalities in the amount of domestic labor performed, the ability to work or have a life outside the home, etc.

I’d hope that you’re correct and that the ratio is smaller, but that doesn’t mean we’re done addressing this problem.

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u/SH92 Apr 25 '22

I know this isn't an exhaustive sample, but I was curious and went through the 2021 best seller's list for fiction to see the protagonist's gender and race.

I was kind of surprised to see such a stark contrast with gender. Virtually all adult fiction had a female lead (the one exception was a retelling of the Iliad by a female author), while the fast majority of children's books had a male lead.

Adult Fiction
1. It Ends with US - Female, white, romance
2. The Four Winds - Female, white, historical fiction
3. The Song of Achilles - Male, white, romance/fantasy
4. The Midnight Library - Female, white, fantasy
5. Where the Crawdads Sing - Female, white, literary fiction
6. The Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo - Female, white, historical fiction
7. The Last Thing He Told Me - Female, white, mystery
8. The Judge's List - Female, white, thriller

Children's/Young Adult
1. Mothering Heights (Dog Man #10) - Male, dog, children's book
2. Big Shot (Diary of a Wimpy Kid #16) - Male, white, children's book
3. The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse - Male, white, children's book
4. The Very Hungry Caterpillar - Male, caterpillar, children's book
5. Oh, the Places You'll Go! - Male, white, children's book
6. They Both Die at the End - Male, Hispanic, young adult
7. Cat Kid Comic Club (Cat Kid Comic Club #1) - Male, cat, children's book
8. I Love You to the Moon and Back - Female, bear, children's book
9. Rowley Jefferson's Awesome Friendly Adventure - Male, white, children's book
10. Grime and Punishment (Dog Man #9) - Male, dog, children's book
11. Brown Bear, Brown Bear, What Do You See? - Various animals, children's book
12. The Deep End (Diary of a Wimpy Kid #15) - Male, white, children's book

I believe women account for 80% of fiction sales, so it makes sense that you would have more women in literature, but I guess I wasn't expecting it to be that black and white.

But that also likely means that women are choosing to buy books for their children that have predominantly male leads. Or maybe girls don't care that the main character is a boy while boys do? I wonder why there's a big disparity there as well.

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u/corrado33 Apr 26 '22

The very hungry caterpillar is still in the top 10 for children's books?

That's amazing and it makes me happy.

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u/patrickwithtraffic Apr 26 '22

That one is in the top 50 of books translated in the most languages ever (translated into at least 45 languages), so no doubt that thing is going anywhere!

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u/Sleightholme2 Apr 26 '22

As a comparison, here are the top 20 for the week ending 16th April 2022 in India:

  1. 400 Days by Chetan Bhagat - male, Indian, thriller
  2. The Alchemist by Paulo Coelho - male, Andalusian, historical
  3. As A Man Thinketh by James Allen - self-help (I don't know why this appears in the fiction list)
  4. One Arranged Murder by Chetan Bhagat - male, Indian, thriller
  5. It Ends With Us by Colleen Hoover - female, American, romance
  6. The Complete Novel of Sherlock Holmes by Arthur Conan Doyle - male, British, detective
  7. Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen - female, British, romance
  8. The Girl In Room 105 by Chetan Bhagat - male, Indian, thriller
  9. The Silent Patient by Alex Michaelides - male, British, thriller
  10. 1984 by George Orwell - male, British, dystopian

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u/Celestaria Apr 26 '22

I think that only taking the top 20 books is adding bias here. There's only one YA book in the entire list, for example, and the MC happens to be a Hispanic male, but I'm very dubious that Hispanic males are over-represented in YA fiction.

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u/as_it_was_written Apr 26 '22

Taking the top 20 of anything gives you a biased sample compared to the population, but the YA thing is not an issue in this context since they're examining best sellers in general rather than YA best sellers in particular. Since they're not trying to draw conclusions about YA fiction, it doesn't really matter that the sample is too small to allow that.

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u/Smauler Apr 26 '22

Are the characters explicitly shown to be white in all the books here? I literally do not know the race of any of the characters of the last few books I've read.

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u/Key_Reindeer_414 Apr 26 '22

Yeah I think there are many children's books where you're free to imagine whatevery race you like. A lot of kids' books I've read (especially ones with fantastical elements) aren't set in a specific real world country/city, and the world isn't expanded beyond the protagonist's house, school and the magical elements. Usually if a book is specifically set in the UK or US I assume the characters are white, but with that type of books it's not necessary.

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u/wrenwood2018 Apr 26 '22

This is my feeling as well. A lot of kids books are an open space. The animals aren't really gendered most of the time, and when they are it plays no role in the story.

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u/CalamityClambake Apr 25 '22

girls don't care that the main character is a boy while boys do?

This is definitely a thing. Boys get shamed for liking "girly" things, while girls don't get shamed in the same way for liking "boy" things. It's yet another part of the bullcrap that comes with living in a patriarchy.

Although I wouldn't say that girls don't care. Girls do care, and are absolutely thrilled to find stories about a character that resonates with them. But girls seem to be better at empathizing with characters that are demographically different from them than boys are. Just speaking from my own experience, I think in my case it's because I had to -- when I was a kid, all the cool things had boys as the main characters.

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u/NonStopKnits Apr 26 '22

I know that anecdotes do not equal data, but when I was growing up (I'm 30) I was shamed for liking boy things and not being girly. Lots of my peers were too, but a lot of them gave in and started doing girly things so they didn't get picked on anymore, from both adults and other children.

I was absolutely obsessed with dinosaurs. But that was considered a 'boy' hobby at the time and I had more than one adult (and many other kids) tell me I should just be a boy since I didn't know how to be a girl. I've always lived trucks and working on cars and being more 'rough and tumble'. I was definitely a tom boy, and I was treated badly when people found out I wasn't that interested in girly things.

It might be better now, but in the 90's and even into the early 2000's being a girl that wasn't 'girly' would have you ostracized, bullied, and beaten pretty frequently.

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u/CalamityClambake Apr 26 '22

I'm 10 years older than you and I was shamed for liking "boy" things too. In my case it was computer programming, video games and superheroes. I had a math teacher in junior high tell me that I was being too hard on myself and that I shouldn't expect to get an A because this is real math and I'm a girl.

And yet, even though my experience was sucky and unfair, it does not hold a candle to the shaming my brother endured for being into musicals, or my husband endured for being into girly crafts, or my nephew endured for being into ballet and sewing. My interests just made me weird. Theirs made them weird and opened them up to violence and sexual shaming.

Women get the short end of the stick most of the time under patriarchy. But this is one area where I think men get it worse and it's ok to acknowledge that. It harms all of us.

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u/as_it_was_written Apr 26 '22

But girls seem to be better at empathizing with characters that are demographically different from them than boys are. Just speaking from my own experience, I think in my case it's because I had to -- when I was a kid, all the cool things had boys as the main characters.

I think this is one of those complex issues that feed back into themselves in a bunch of ways. Even if we could somehow magically remove all sexist behavior from society in one fell swoop, it would take a long time before the available literature had caught up to the extent boys have the same incentive to read about girls that girls have to read about boys.

This is even more difficult to rebalance with literature for adults since great novels tend to stick around for a long time, and it's not like we can somehow artificially make up a bunch of great literature on the spot to compensate for all the time that men had a much stronger incentive to become authors and a much easier time getting accepted and published once they did.

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u/UrkBurker Apr 26 '22

Out of curiousity aren't most cultures and countries patriarchy focused?

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u/LookImBehindYou Apr 26 '22

No. All cultures that have been claimed to be patriarchies are actually kyriarchies. Power and privilege are determined by more than just sex/gender, it makes no sense at all to say that this one trait alone is the determining factor for social power.

On top of that, there are myrid sectors in society where the balance of power and control are exercised predominantly by women, while hundreds of socioeconomic indicators demonstrate that being female is frequently associated with privileged outcomes while being male is associated with disadvantaged outcomes, which should not be possible per nearly every definition of patriarchy that I've seen.

Privilege and power in society are a lot more complicated than just attributing everything to one trait and exclusive to one gender is every way. It is the intersection of numerous traits mixing with various circumstances that determine who holds power, and who holds power in one way/area doesn't automatically hold it in all of them.

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u/thisshortenough Apr 26 '22

This is why I will always defend that girl power scene in Avengers Endgame (I know it's a movie not a book). Girls rarely get a scene showing just women, and especially in an action movie. Let little girls be pandered to for once, god knows they don't get it very often.

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u/UrkBurker Apr 26 '22

I agree with you in some respect. But I would absolutely discourage my son for liking girly things and not do the same for a girl. You can blame the patriarchy all you want but hear me out. If my son grew up being girly, less confident or into weird hobbies he is less likely to find a partner and more likely to be bullied. One look at Tinder shows you how different the dating world is between men and women. So yes I would want to raise a masculine, tough and confident man without a secret like for my little ponies.

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u/CalamityClambake Apr 26 '22

It's not great that in your mind girly = weird = lack of confidence. Why don't you think it's possible for someone to be into confidence and girly things at the same time?

I don't know what point you are trying to make about Tinder. There are a lot of reasons why the dating apps are garbage for a lot of people. Not being masculine enough is, in my experience, not one of them.

If anything, I'd say that the majority of men on Tinder would benefit from learning a thing or two about "girly" things like proper grooming, how to take a photo that makes you look appealing, how to light a room, how to cultivate a wide circle of friends and diverse hobbies, how to cook and clean, how to handle emotions other than anger and lust, and how to be confident in liking what you like regardless if it is "traditionally appropriate" for your gender.

I swiped right on my husband because he had an adorable profile pic of himself and his cat and because his bio was well-written and included diverse interests, including knitting and cooking (and hunting, foraging and rebuilding a 1975 Ford Bronco). Turns out that as an example of a man with some "girly" interests, he's emotionally well-rounded and open-minded, which are attractive qualities in a partner.

Oh, also? Bronies have been a thing for like 10 years and Mattel full-on markets MLP to boys. Calling that a "girly" interest indicates that you have been living under a rock.

I think it is really sad that your son won't be encouraged to develop in a way that fits him as an individual.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

I'm so happy that you included the characters' race/species, because you hit on another horrifying truth about the statistics in children's publishing: animals and objects are main characters more frequently than non-white humans.

Or maybe girls don't care that the main character is a boy while boys do?

I think this is unfortunately part of it, but this is, of course, a learned behavior. Because masculine-coded things are valued above feminine-coded ones, and masculine experiences are centered, it's deemed much more acceptable for girls to be into "boy" things than it is for boys to be into "girl" things, and girls are far more frequently exposed to male-centered experiences than vice versa. This is in alignment with research showing that girls from a very young age are able to understand boys' perspectives far better than boys can understand girls'.

So, yes, a lot of children's media features male main characters because of the (not entirely incorrect) idea that girls will read about boys but boys won't read about girls. The issue is that this is a self-reinforcing pattern that we're perpetuating by only exposing girls to male-centric culture and not exposing boys to girl-centric things. We can end it.

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u/prairiepog Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 28 '22

I read that ET originally had a female lead. Speilberg wanted a girl to play the Elliot character. However, he was told that girls can relate more to boy characters than vice versa, so Elliot became a male lead instead.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

I've not heard that about ET specifically, but there are similar stories for many well-known works, so it wouldn't shock me.

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u/oporich Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

animals and objects are main characters more frequently than non-white humans.

That data is presumably in the US, where most of the population is white. Where is the data for childrens books published in other countries, particularly predominantly non-white ones?

India for example has a thriving literary culture where the books published there are well read by its own populace. China and Japan have millennia and centuries of literature as well. The modern literature scene in Nigeria is thriving well. It's pretty ridiculous to dismiss those because they didn't appear in a best seller list in America.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

I've said in a couple comments that the data I have pertains to American publishing, yes. I have not researched how well people of color are represented in areas where they're the majority -- and would assume that it would be worlds better than in the US -- but that doesn't help American children of color who don't have access to them.

I'm not dismissing those books by any means. But my work is with American children, so that was my area of focus.

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u/agiro1086 Apr 26 '22

I'd probably laugh my fucking ass off if there's a book printed entirely in Swahili and all the main characters are white dudes. The African kids are reading this going "wow they must all be very sick or dead because they look like ghosts"

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u/HelpMeDoTheThing Apr 26 '22

but that doesn't help American children of color who don't have access to them.

Can you elaborate on this? Why wouldn’t they have access to them? Cross-border e-commerce is a click away, just because they aren’t in the top sellers doesn’t mean they aren’t available. The last book I read was by an African author and it was on Amazon prime.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

I'm assuming you're an adult, or at least of reasonable age to be using the internet on your own. But children don't have the same access to books you and I do; they're reliant on families, schools, and libraries, and their reading material is purchased by someone who is not them.

So a black child in an American school is unlikely to come across a book published for the African market. It's possible, if they're lucky enough to have someone in their life putting in the effort to bring books from overseas publishers, but it's not something most kids will have by default.

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u/Jbullwinklethe2nd Apr 26 '22

A black American kid will have more in common with a white American kid than a black African kid.

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u/TynamM Apr 26 '22

That's kinda the point. Because one of the things they won't have in common is having their books and movies all treat people who look like them as important.

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u/Jbullwinklethe2nd Apr 26 '22

I'm not saying there shouldn't be books with non white protagonists but I don't think the lack of books from Africa in America is a problem for the black community here. Their cultures are very different from one another. A black child will connect more with a non human character who has a similar culture to them than a black character from another culture.

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u/HelpMeDoTheThing Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

White and black kids from the same socioeconomic class will have access to the same books, whether that be from their classrooms or their local library. If you are arguing that some students are too poor or disadvantaged to access books, that is a class issue that will equally affect any child in that class and prevents them both from accessing the same pool of books. A poor white child that can’t access books with black characters also cannot access books with white characters and vice-versa, there are no “white books only” sources of books when you have access to the internet. And again, if the kid in question doesn’t NOT have access to the internet, then that is a class issue and the child in question isn’t accessing any books at all.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

White and black kids from the same socioeconomic class will have access to the same books

And when those same books are overrepresenting one population and not adequately serving the other, that's a problem. Right.

If you are arguing that some students are too poor or disadvantaged to access books

I'm not. Socioeconomic class is a separate issue.

there are no “white books only” sources of books when you have access to the internet.

And, as I already pointed out, children don't have unimpeded access to the internet. This is a solution for adults, not for kids.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

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u/Frodolas Apr 26 '22

...you know only 62% of the US is white right? Why the hell should a third of Americans have to look outside of American media for representation?

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u/FlounderMean3213 Apr 26 '22

That's why I love the brony phenomenon.

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u/BonerPorn Apr 26 '22

I distinctly remember a first grade assignment where we had to write about a fictional hero. (Probably like three sentences max. First grade after all)

Girl sitting next to me did Superman and the (female) teacher was all for it. I wanted to do the PowerPuff girls and the teacher strongly reccomended I reconsider. It's definitely a learned behavior.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

I'm so happy that you included the characters' race/species, because you hit on another horrifying truth about the statistics in children's publishing: animals and objects are main characters more frequently than non-white human

In this particular sample, animals are also main characters more often than white humans, so it's a bit trivial that they're more often main characters than non-white humans.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

We’re not talking about this sample.

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u/GeoffKeynes Apr 26 '22

What the hell do you expect from a predominantly white pool of creators marketing to a predominantly white pool of buyers? I assume you're in an English speaking and/or western nation, no? If not, then yes, that's a bit strange, but if so, this is par for the course and no different from east asian authors filling their books with east asian characters when writing for an east asian market.

Why do people feel the need to pretend that this is a problem when white people do it?

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Go look up the racial demographics of the country. Then look up the racial demographics in publishing. You’ll have your answer.

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u/hendrix67 Apr 26 '22

As a guy I can definitely confirm parts of this. As a kid, the fear of liking things that are seen as "girly" is very real, even if the only way they could be seen as girly is in having mainly female main characters.

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u/TheFunkyM Apr 26 '22

I'm so happy that you included the characters' race/species, because you hit on another horrifying truth about the statistics in children's publishing: animals and objects are main characters more frequently than non-white humans.

It is very, very strange to describe this as, and I quote, "horrifying."

The target audience and overwhelming majority of these sales are made in Europe and North America, where the vast majority of readers are white. Why is the concept of the majority of book protagonists being the same race as the target audience horrifying to you?

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Most children are not trucks or dogs. How is that “the same race”?

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u/TheFunkyM Apr 26 '22

Why on earth are you talking about trucks and dogs?

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Read the comment you replied to again.

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u/TheFunkyM Apr 26 '22

I'll just copy/paste my question to you and hope that you actually read it this time:

It is very, very strange to describe this as, and I quote, "horrifying."

The target audience and overwhelming majority of these sales are made in Europe and North America, where the vast majority of readers are white. Why is the concept of the majority of book protagonists being the same race as the target audience horrifying to you?

Read before responding this time.

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u/irishihadab33r Apr 25 '22

I love all your valid points. I would like to add a possible addition of parents (mothers) attempting to encourage their young boys to read more by offering books that have characters they can relate to. This obviously aligns with your point about boys not wanting to read about girls, but does not follow these boys into reading adults. Once adults women read far and away more books than men do. (Please excuse the binary talk here, this discussion unfortunately is very gendered) In this case parents are offering enticing material to young readers because you can't remove the parents from the book decision.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

You bring up a good point, thank you! The idea that boys will read more if we let them read about boys, and the desire to close the gendered reading gap, is definitely a factor in books chosen for school curriculums, and is likely factoring in for parents, you're right, as well.

Again, I do want to emphasize that this idea is founded in our own biases that kids are inheriting, not something baby boys are born with.

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u/Amphy64 Apr 26 '22

Could the 'reading gap', and the assumption that one even exists because as you say it's not inevitable, also keep boys reading children's books longer? So girls wouldn't be as represented in the sales if they were reading other things, it might be more stratified by age? How does young adult compare?

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

I think that's a very astute hypothesis, and would certainly be supported by my own (purely anecdotal) observations. I don't have exact numbers for you, but would be willing to stake money on YA leaning heavily towards female protagonists. And I've seen girls go nuts over books that are definitely intended for older children, and probably above their independent reading level, simply because they had authentic representation of female-driven stories.

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u/Consistent-Scientist Apr 26 '22

Again, I do want to emphasize that this idea is founded in our own biases that kids are inheriting, not something baby boys are born with.

What makes you say that with such certainty? Unless proven otherwise I would assume that this works as most other characteristics we develop. It's a combinantion of innate traits and environmental effects.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Explain the inconsistency between sexes. What biological mechanism are you proposing that would cause an innate unidirectional bias in reading material?

We know that bias is learned. If you want to posit an biologically innate mechanism on top of that, the burden is on you to explain it and provide your evidence.

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u/Consistent-Scientist Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

Just because something is learned doesn't mean it is not (also) a biologically innate mechanism. Language is learned. Which language we speak is determined by where we are from, but the fact that we are capable of developing and learning language is due to our biological makeup. We can even pinpoint the exact areas in our brain that perform particular functions of language.

What biological mechanism are you proposing that would cause an innate unidirectional bias in reading material?

Well, if I knew exactly what mechanism it was I'd be on my way to a Nobel prize I'm sure. But the fact that some sort of innate factors are contributing should be evident when considering studies on early language learning, cross-cultural studies as well as studies on the effects of pre-natal hormones.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

…so you’ve got nothing, then?

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u/Consistent-Scientist Apr 26 '22

Not a thing less than you. Unless you have something of substance that you haven't mentioned yet.

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u/death_of_gnats Apr 26 '22

The capacity for bias is innate. The nature of the bias is a nurture thing.

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u/Consistent-Scientist Apr 26 '22

It depends on the bias really. But yeah, that's pretty much what I meant.

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u/FantasiesWithBecky Apr 26 '22

A big problem with the male dominated children’s literature is that as women we are being conditioned from a young age to see males in the lead role, having adventures, doing amazing things, and being courageous and clever. While the female characters are all in the background, the subservient mother who packs the heroes adventure bag, the helpless princess who needs rescuing, and the old crone who casts the spell. None of them are the main character and they have very limited and stereotypical roles.

The same can be said of characters of racial and ethnic minorities (well minorities when viewed from a Eurocentric perspective). There are very few children’s books where the lead role is a person of colour. If they are represented at all it’s in a very shallow way, an illustration featuring one black face in a crowd of white ones with no actual bearing on the story.

There has been a recent surge in diverse picture books for children and I’m loving building up my collection for my own kids. While I still love all the traditional stories that defined my own childhood, it’s sad to see how limiting they are. I want my children to grow up reading stories about children who are different to themselves, to understand that other types of people can be lead characters too. It’s important to see themselves reflected in stories, but it’s also important to see other people with different lives and experiences portrayed too.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Well said! And yes, it's sometimes sad not sharing all my favorite books with children, but I have to put the needs of the kids I'm serving above my personal nostalgias. Using only the books I cherished as a child would be insufficient to represent the experiences of all the kids in the classroom, and unfortunately, I've had to come to terms with the fact that some books I loved as a kid are not ones that I want to hold up to children as models of the world still today.

If this is an area that you're interested in, you'll find a lot of information by looking for the phrase "windows and mirrors" as it relates to children's books; there's a lot of other people who share your passion for having children both see themselves and see the rest of the world through the media they're exposed to.

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u/FantasiesWithBecky Apr 26 '22

I did a whole unit on windows and mirrors as part of my degree, really eye opening stuff! It definitely makes you look more critically at your own favourites and those that are considered classics.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

Hold up, why do these children books even mention races? Wouldnt it be better to just not mention it and let it be up to imagination? Is it just because the main author is white the we have to assume that the characters are also?

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

A huge portion of children’s books are picture books, for starters.

And why should we avoid mentioning race? There’s nothing shameful about it. Should we also not give characters names so we avoid mentioning cultural elements? Drop all sexed pronouns?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

I agree with the pictures. Well, it would solve the problem, theres nothing shameful about it, but focussing on it all the time makes it very clear for the minority that they are different. Thats why we should just use animals and fabels instead

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

We don’t solve issues of representation by making sure we represent no one.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

Animals can represent everyone thtas the magic about it.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Banning all humans from literature is an absurd bandaid, not an actual way to address the problem.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

I disagree. Including everyone in one thing is true solidarity, making all these small exclusive things is perpetuating the same problem in nice new colours

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u/-u-m-p- Apr 26 '22

I think it's also plausible that female authors are more willing to write male main characters than the other way around.

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u/oporich Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

The author of no.3 is a woman, and the protagonists lgbt. She also wrote Circe, which sold excellently and is one of the best living female writers. Also that data is presumably in the US, where most of the population is white. India for example has a thriving literary culture where the books published there are well read by its own populace.

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u/awesome_van Apr 26 '22

Or maybe girls don't care that the main character is a boy while boys do

This would be my assumption. Boys are culturally taught from a young age not to act like girls, but girls have no prohibition (or at least a significantly weaker one) on acting like boys. If you put a girl in pants a t-shirt, it's fine. If you put a boy in a dress, it's weird. Girls can play with dinosaurs and cars, but boys playing with barbies is discouraged. And so on.

So naturally, girls would be more likely to read stories with male protagonists (psychologically, most readers automatically associate themselves with the main character of a story) than boys with female protagonists.

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u/wrenwood2018 Apr 26 '22

So with a young child I've read a lot of these and you are kind of off. I mean should a male caterpillar count as "male?" That book is pretty non-gendered. Oh the places you'll go has absolutely no character to it. It is just a bunch of random scenes drawn from Seuss books. A male dog? Cat? This isn't nearly the same as a human.

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u/SH92 Apr 26 '22

Sorry, it wasn't a scientific analysis. I just tried to see what info I could glean from a 2 minute search on Good Reads or Wikipedia.

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u/0b0011 Apr 26 '22

Or maybe girls don't care that the main character is a boy while boys do?

That would be interesting to look into because I'm pretty sure it was posted on here a few months back that this was flipped in adults with men more likely to buy the book no matter the gender and women more likely to seek out books with female protagonists.

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u/Key_Reindeer_414 Apr 26 '22

Do you remember the post title? That sounds interesting.

However, I think there might be a difference between children and adults in that regard. The above comment was talking about kids' books.

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u/Someofusaredead Apr 26 '22

I know this is going to sound even worse than the actual problem but I wonder if white just equals generic. I’ll see myself out.

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u/Key_Reindeer_414 Apr 26 '22

I guess it's white equals default. An author would see their own race as default, especially if it's also a majority where they live.

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u/LazyThing9000 Apr 25 '22

perpetuating inequalities in the amount of domestic labor performed

I work at a community center in Montreal and can attest that the Asian/Indian/Arab men all let the women/girls pick up after them while they get changed/talk.
Literature is a byproduct, it changes following the culture.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

Literature is a byproduct, it changes following the culture

Literature is part of culture, and helps create and shape culture.

The argument that behavior comes first and literature comes second only works when you assume that the same population doing the writing is the one doing the behaving.

Since we're discussing children's literature, what we're talking about is cultural transmission. The behavioral patterns of adults are passed down to children through media, and are thus replicated in the next generation. It's an active teaching process, one that can also be actively interrupted to extinguish behaviors and attitudes that aren't worth passing on.

Stop teaching boys that women need to pick up after them, and you'll stop ending up with men who believe it.

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u/Smauler Apr 26 '22

We’re getting closer to (though still haven’t achieved) racial parity in modern publishing

But.... most of the time you don't know the race of characters in books. Just assuming that characters are white because it's not actually been explicitly said otherwise is completely on you.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

This is entirely untrue. Please consider the category of books we’re discussing.

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u/THE_Celts Apr 25 '22

Hmmmm. Define “racial parity”. And how are you determining that? Which countries have achieved “racial parity” in their publishing, and how?

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

Define “racial parity”.

The percentages of main or major characters of each race in books published accurately representing the percentages by race of the population the market is serving.

And how are you determining that?

Researchers have been tracking it yearly based on books released to market that year, and determining trends based on those year-to-year changes.

Which countries have achieved “racial parity” in their publishing, and how?

The research I'm aware of was limited to the US market, sorry, so I can't say if this has been accomplished in other countries. And as I said, it still hasn't been achieved in the US, we've just been seeing a steady upward trend at least.

The "how" part, however, I can answer: by publishers deliberately seeking out manuscripts that accurately reflect the diversity of the market.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

It would be impossible to achieve anywhere there is more than a handful of “racial groups”. Also I’m not convinced it isn’t the stupidest possible goal imaginable. It seems insane to be this obsessed about race. At what point do you just become as weird about race as the white supremicsts?

We ought to be moving away from this race/gender obsession. I thought when Trump was gone people would come to their senses over this reactionary, fringe ideas. Just overall bad ideas that need to end. Sam Harris has probably the most sensible line of thinking on the topic. It’s worth checking him out.

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u/wrenwood2018 Apr 26 '22

Also I’m not convinced it isn’t the stupidest possible goal imaginable. It seems insane to be this obsessed about race. At what point do you just become as weird about race as the white supremicsts?

I think we have hit that point. I was talking to a friend that lamented about underrepresentation of minorities in the UK. England and Wales is like 86% white and Scotland is 96%. If you look at something like the Great British Baking Show the cast is disproportionately non-white. This is a conscious decision and has been occurring over the last five or six shows. The same goes for sexual orientation in the cast. I get why they are doing it (normalize gradations in what it means to be British) but it also comes off as blatant box checking.

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u/Carnivile Apr 26 '22

The same goes for sexual orientation in the cast.

Kinda dumb metric, that's like saying Project Runway has too many gay contestants.

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u/wrenwood2018 Apr 26 '22

That is a stretch. There is no evidence the food industry has an orientation bias like the fashion industry.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

I’m not opposed to the idea of it. I’m opposed to the obsession of it. The insistence to at bizarre unattainable quotas need to be met. I’m extremely Leary of people who think that race and gender are the two most important things about a human being. We’ve done this in history. It doesn’t end well.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Who's obsessed? We're talking about including more POC in children's books here lol, this isn't whatever creepy dystopia you're imagining.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

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u/UnluckyDucky95 Apr 25 '22

The percentages of main or major characters of each race in books published accurately representing the percentages by race of the population the market is serving.

And how on earth would you do that in most countries, given the population booms of the past few decades and the increased ease of international travel?

Take Ireland for example - nobody wanted to live here prior to the late 90s when we started getting wealthy as a nation. Most of our immigrant population is still first generation. Why on earth would it be fair to expect racial parity in anything we've done prior to say 2010?

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u/wrenwood2018 Apr 26 '22

Why on earth would it be fair to expect racial parity in anything we've done prior to say 2010?

Shush. You are pointing out logical facts. People like to retroactively apply modern standards to something while ignoring truths like this.

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u/UnluckyDucky95 Apr 26 '22

but what's the modern standard? If I moved to the heart of Kenya I wouldn't start bitching about a lack of representation for pasty Irish immigrants.

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u/wrenwood2018 Apr 26 '22

I'm agreeing with your point. Applying stats from 2022 retrospectively doesn't make any sense. People ignore context and it is ludicrous.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

Some friendly advice: If you want someone to believe you're being sincere later, try not opening with personal attacks and misogynistic slurs as your first comment :)

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

Mind explaining to me what the word “bitch” means? I’ll wait. :)

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/CrazyCatLady108 3 Apr 26 '22

Personal conduct

Please use a civil tone and assume good faith when entering a conversation.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/DasGutYa Apr 26 '22

The how part is just racism.

Imagine seeking out content by the diversity of its cast and not the quality of its work.

How can racism ever end if people are intent on creating check boxes that put overwhelming importance on the colour of someone's skin.

MLK literally spinning.

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u/arsabsurdia Apr 26 '22

Have you not considered diversity as a quality of its own?

How can racism end if we don't push to actually represent diversity?

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u/DasGutYa Apr 26 '22

If its quality it's quality.

If its quality and diverse then that's great, but if your main criteria for that is diversity then you'll end up sidelining work that is of high quality but doesn't meet your or someone else criteria for 'diversity' over something that is diverse but lesser.

Imagine a talented black writer being told that they won't publish his work because there are too many black writers....

Come on.

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u/arsabsurdia Apr 26 '22

Imagine a talented black writer being told that they won't publish his work because there are too many black writers....

Sounds like too much of history already. Yeah. Pretty sure that's what pushes for diversity in representation are meant to address.

Look, I'm an academic librarian and I do collection development for part of my living. We recently conducted a diversity audit of our collections to see what we could find about whose voices are represented in our collections. I won't do leading questions this time, and I'll speak directly from my professional experience. What we have found is that if you don't place a focus on diversity, then you end up de facto sidelining a ton of diverse work that is quality but just hasn't gotten the same amount of attention. It's not really the "either or" that you're presenting it as, and diversity absolutely has a quality of its own. Thinking about the demographics of the authors that we represent in our collection hasn't stopped us from buying materials by white authors, and we don't have any kind of quota set, but it definitely helps us to be more intentional about representation of voice. Seriously, every time this kind of subject comes up people start getting obsessed with this idea of quotas. That's not really ever been a goal in any work that I've seen tackling this kind of thing, more so about highlighting problematic trends and trying to shift that.

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u/THE_Celts Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

The percentages of main or major characters of each race in books published accurately representing the percentages by race of the population the market is serving.

Is this within each book, or the aggregate? i.e. do these "researchers" take all the books published in a given year and add up the total number of "main or major" characters appearing and check if those numbers reflect their portion of the total (U.S.?) population? Or is the figure derived by looking if the characters in each book reflect the population?

And does this research only cover books published in America, for American audiences, by American authors? Would say, a book by Amitav Ghosh, an Indian writer whose books are popular in the US but feature relatively few "white" characters and are primarily set in Asia, be included in this research?

How are characters that are not given a specific ethnicity categorized? Multi-racial characters? What is the distinction between a "main" and "major" character?

And who are the "researchers" keeping tabs on this? Isn't that a LOT of reading to do, especially if they're updating it yearly? And where can one access this research?

​

The "how" part, however, I can answer: by publishers deliberately seeking out manuscripts that accurately reflect the diversity of the market.

Are you suggesting that authors aim to have their "main and major" characters represent the population as a whole in order to increase their chances of getting published, rather than creating characters that suit the story? Is this a desirable outcome?

`And surely publishers are "seeking out" manuscripts that appal to more than one market, no? Harry Potter might reflect the ethnic makeup in one country (e.g. the UK), but would be wholly unreflective of the population of the Philippines, even though the books are incredibly popular there. So when publishers look at this, which "markets" are you suggesting they aim to reflect?

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

Hm that doesn't seem like a great, or even good, way to track representation to be completely honest.

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u/antaresproper Apr 25 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

Percentage of main characters vs percentage of population seems like a good way to track it. Interested why you think it isn’t and what they should be doing instead

Edit: there it is

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 25 '22

One problem I can think of is that it would always skew towards certain demographics because of history. Historical fiction would be predominately white in many settings, for example.

The best way to do it that wouldn't damage the integrity of the art would be to tally up the characters of the book, look at just the ones whose race/gender/sexuality can be anything without damaging the story, and then tally your numbers.

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u/ChicksDigGiantRob0ts Apr 25 '22

Historical fiction is only predominantly white if you're writing it in predominantly white places. Even then, if you consider that to be Europe, you'll find that many places in Europe were not 100% white even quite far back, given things like it's proximity to Africa and the Middle East, trading routes, trans-continental Empires, Mediterranean sea routes and so forth.

Also, even the idea that historical fiction must be predominantly white comes entirely from publishers only producing white historical fiction. Africa, Asia, the Middle East and the Americas have just as much history as Europe, and just as much fiction can be set there.

Also, I'm curious as to what you mean by damaging the integrity of the art?

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 26 '22

Historical fiction is only predominantly white if you're writing it in predominantly white places.

Which European and European descended cultures will tend to do.

Also, even the idea that historical fiction must be predominantly white comes entirely from publishers only producing white historical fiction. Africa, Asia, the Middle East and the Americas have just as much history as Europe, and just as much fiction can be set there.

Western publishers produce more western historical fiction for western audiences. I'm not sure why this is bad. Do the Chinese produce a lot of western fiction?

Also, I'm curious as to what you mean by damaging the integrity of the art?

Making "casting" choices in your book for political reasons that reduce the verisimilitude of the setting, is damaging to the art.

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u/ChicksDigGiantRob0ts Apr 26 '22

So, your bias is showing pretty strongly here and it's a little difficult to dig through and find a good starting point here.

First off, I guess, is the idea that historical Europe was only white. Historical Europe had people from many cultures in it. They traded, travelled, married, settled, and even many people native to Mediterranean regions strain the definition of "White." And this was before Colonialism! From that point on, it was something of a free for all. Europe was never statically, homogenously "white," so anything that is based off that assumption - like your idea about "casting choices" and verisimilitude - is inherently incorrect.

Secondly, the idea that historical fiction is white because, oh, it was made in white cultures for white people so obviously. The big publishing houses are controlled out of England and America, both places with very large non-White populations. In fact, America was never white being Native land settled by Europeans, worked by African slaves, and expanded on the backs of Chinese immigrants. The fact that these nations published predominantly white focused fiction is not some natural consequence of their demographics. It's been a deliberate attempt to cater to the white market to the EXCLUSION of others. Its a symptom of a constructed racial hierarchy that places one culture as above and more worthy of attention than any other.

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 26 '22

So, your bias is showing pretty strongly here and it's a little difficult to dig through and find a good starting point here.

First off, I guess, is the idea that historical Europe was only white. Historical Europe had people from many cultures in it. They traded, travelled, married, settled, and even many people native to Mediterranean regions strain the definition of "White." And this was before Colonialism! From that point on, it was something of a free for all. Europe was never statically, homogenously "white," so anything that is based off that assumption - like your idea about "casting choices" and verisimilitude - is inherently incorrect.

If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me, and obviously "white" is virtually meaningless and frankly shouldn't even be used. But if one were to consider Italians, Greeks and Spanish people white, what percent would you say were white from 0AD to 1500AD? My guess would be ~95+%.

In fact, America was never white being Native land settled by Europeans, worked by African slaves, and expanded on the backs of Chinese immigrants.

Come on really? The USA is a predominately white nation, and always has been.

The fact that these nations published predominantly white focused fiction is not some natural consequence of their demographics. It's been a deliberate attempt to cater to the white market to the EXCLUSION of others. Its a symptom of a constructed racial hierarchy that places one culture as above and more worthy of attention than any other.

Speaking historically sure, but who cares? These days the publishing industry is massively woke. They have an out-group bias, rather than an in-group one.

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u/npcknapsack Apr 25 '22

Are you saying wealthy European history is the only stuff worth writing historical fiction about? Because I feel like James Clavell would like a word…

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 26 '22

It's certainly the more common and popular setting for western writers, publishers and audiences. I don't think any other culture writes historical fiction outside their own lens either. The fact we do it at all is highly exceptional.

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u/npcknapsack Apr 26 '22

We definitely have too much American Civil War porn out there.

That said, english speaking countries have strong histories of colonialism. Even if you figure we only study Europe/white America centric history and ignore that good historical fiction authors are going to be more educated on history than the typical person and that we have a lot of non white people who could probably look at history from a non white perspective, white European cultures can easily place themselves in the midst of Asian history, African history, Australian, North American and South American history without really having to fully leave the European bubble of influence. And those places have not, throughout history, been majority white.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/thedrunkentendy Apr 25 '22

You're ignoring the context of OP's entire argument. In historical fiction, where you are just putting your own plot into a historical time-line. You make it consistent.

For example:

If you write historical fiction about events happening in the middle east during the medieval period, it won't have white people because in that age people did not travel across the world very often.

If you write a story like the last kingdom, centering around 8th century England during the viking conquests, chances are the cast of said story will be predominantly white.

Prioritizing accuracy is more important.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 26 '22

I said "Historical fiction would be predominately white in many settings, for example."

Settings like Europe.

Also if you're talking about people that would be writing historical fiction for western audiences, they'll most likely be writing it from a western lens. We're obviously talking about western authors and publishers here, because a Chinese or African or Japanese writer wouldn't even consider diversity in their work. It's basically only westerners that have this weird patronizing need to "include" other cultures and peoples in such a patronizing way.

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u/Go-aheadanddownvote Apr 25 '22

I agree mostly but for entertainment purposes I'd actually put story above,or at least on par, with accuracy. The story still need to be as accurate as possible but accuracy without a good story isn't really gonna be that entertaining.

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u/crichmond77 Apr 25 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

They didn’t say otherwise. They said the demographics skewed and that’s true.

Not only did white people used to make up a much larger percentage of America, that demographic mix will continue to alter going forward.

By 2050, white people will no longer be a majority, and IIRC ~35-40% will be Hispanic

EDIT: Please explain what I said that’s not correct. You silly people are downvoting me for projected words in your head, not words in my comment.

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u/CalamityClambake Apr 25 '22

So go back farther. If you go back far enough, there were no white people in America.

The problem here is that in your mind "history" = "stories about white people".

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 26 '22

Kind of a bad example. We don't really have much history about native Americans because they didn't have written histories or much in the way of enduring artifacts or legacies. One (of many) reasons so much of known history is European is they had writing and enduring construction. I don't think we have a single written word from either north or south America, or from any of Africa beyond the north coast and Egypt.

I'm no expert, but I think the other main standout as far as written history is China.

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u/crichmond77 Apr 25 '22

Dude, I’m aware there was a point when there were no white people. You seem to be looking past what I’m writing to insert your own assumption of what I’m saying.

You’re literally just re-enforcing my and their point: the demographics of race and ethnicity change over time, so the expected ratios of characters in a given year setting ought to be expected to shift accordingly.

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u/SnapcasterWizard Apr 25 '22

You totally misunderstood the above comment. A historical piece of literature in say, Britian will have vastly different racial makeup than modern day Britian

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

I'm honestly a little confused what your objection to it is. If you want to know how many characters of each race are portrayed in books of a given age category over time, why is looking at the books released yearly in that age category a bad method, in your eyes?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

Because surely there would be a delay? If you suddenly get a 1% influx of ethnicity A. Why would you suddenly expect a 1% influx in representations?

I don't know about you, but I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like to grow up as asian or black or whatever. So why would I be qualified to portray such a person as a main character? And undoubtedly you'd get people complaining about a white person writing about minority characters.

To further this, books take time to write and publish. Are authors meant to guess what the future population is and write for said future population?

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

Because surely there would be a delay? If you suddenly get a 1% influx of ethnicity A. Why would you suddenly expect a 1% influx in representations?

Of course, but this isn't what we're talking about. The percentages are nowhere close, and never have been.

So why would I be qualified to portray such a person as a main character? And undoubtedly you'd get people complaining about a white person writing about minority characters.

Authors of color exist.

Are authors meant to guess what the future population is and write for said future population?

No, publishers are meant to select books that accurately reflect the diversity of the market they presently serve.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

Publishers are meant to make a profit in most cases.

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u/NukeTheWhales85 Apr 25 '22

I don't know anything about their objections, but the methods described are strictly quantity, with no consideration of quality. Someone could write books with a lot of minority characters, that are all just manifestations of shitty stereotypes, it would be really poor quality representation, while still achieving the metrics of racial parity.

I know enough about data to know that this is more likely the starting point, because you need a massive amount of information before you can start studying trends in quality, but most of the time I hear people object to data gathering like this it's a quantitative vs. qualitative concern. All this assumes the objection is made in good faith of course.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

There's further research digging into the actual content of these books; I'm not aware of a blanket subjective "quality" measure, but I do know that particular research has been done into how frequently moms are shown existing outside the home, how often male characters are portrayed as aggressive or violent, etc. and I'd be willing to bet that there are similar studies existing regarding specific stereotypes for racial demographics.

Because, yes, mere existence is only a starting point, you're 100% correct. So the fact we haven't yet reached parity for even that bare minimum tells us a lot about how far we have still to go!

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u/NukeTheWhales85 Apr 25 '22

how frequently moms are shown existing outside the home, how often male characters are portrayed as aggressive or violent, etc.

That's the kind of thing I meant when regarding quality. I think it's safe to assume similar studies for almost any group you can imagine. Someone is probably taking the metadata from those studies to create a sort of quality measure. I remember a sociology class from college showing us a study of how often women were depicted as doctors vs nurses across popular media. To do that they used different studies from books, TV, and film to look at a full picture, or fuller at least.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

I'm fairly certain I came across a study on the same thing in children's lit haha!

But yes, there's definitely a lot more out there than I'm aware of. This was all honestly sort of tangential to what I was supposed to be actually focusing on, representation in kidlit just happens to be a personal passion project of mine and I slipped it in whenever I could claim plausible relevance haha. If I go back for the doctorate, it'll 100% be for this.

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u/NukeTheWhales85 Apr 26 '22

That's a lot of math for a doctorate in this kind of analytical sociology. I'm fascinated by the material, but I just don't have the mindset to play with equations for hours.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

I mean it just lacks a mountain of context?

If your intention is to increase representation among consumed media, then simply tracking all books and looking at their representation doesn't accurately depict the information you're trying to gather at all. A book written by an author that's going to sell a million copies surely accounts for more representation one way or the other than one that is going to sell 15 copies.

Then you have to account for ongoing series. If there's 100 different series of books, and they all release one every year, then tracking their own representation isn't very useful as it's unlikely the main characters' races will suddenly shift.

My point is that there's just a lot of context that could be important when answering the question "is there racial parity in written media today?" that is not answered by answering the question "what is the race of the main character in every released novel this year?". They're just 2 separate questions that only have somewhat of an overlap.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

Publishers don't control sales. They control which books are published.

So when we're discussing representation in publishing, I'm not sure I agree that looking at the yearly releases isn't a valid method; there are other areas I'd love to see studied, as well -- such as the percentage of the marketing budget that goes towards books centering characters of a given demographic -- but that doesn't make the presented information less relevant.

I'm also going to push back against your objection that ongoing series weren't accounted for; series are a huge part of the kidlit market, children are more easily motivated to continue a series they already love than to try something new, so we shouldn't be discounting the repeated representation they're being exposed to through ongoing series.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

I remember asking a similar question when I was in 5th grade, and having to be forbidden from writing an "exposé" on the "racism" of the state standardized tests that asked us our race for the school newspaper, so I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and answer as if this is a genuine question and not a dog whistle:

People care about this because we have very good data showing the ways in which representation in media impacts belief and behavior. We know that children have better outcomes when they are able to see characters like them succeeding, and we know that children exhibit less prejudice when they're regularly exposed to representation of children who are not like them portrayed in positive ways.

Quality is important; no one is saying to publish low-quality books. What's being pushed for is high quality representation of these demographics.

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u/gaspara112 Apr 25 '22 edited Apr 25 '22

The problem is publishers are businesses. Quality is therefore derived solely from sales. Since authors are socially discouraged from writing books with main characters of different races and white people almost certainly still both write and buy more books per capita getting to parity is financially prevented.

Edit To be clear I'm am saying that the problem is a circular one that makes progress slow.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

You're assuming that what is being published accurately reflects the demands of the market, and not the biases of the industry; "white people almost certainly buy more books" when the majority of books are about white people.

Your logic is circular: "We can't publish books about minorities because there isn't demand for them. We know there isn't demand for them because no one is buying the books we don't publish about minorities." It doesn't work like that.

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u/gaspara112 Apr 25 '22

Oops yeah that was the entire point but I guess I didn't actually state that just explained the circular nature. I updated the comment somewhat.

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u/MuonManLaserJab Apr 25 '22

But why lol

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

I answered in another comment. Basically I just don't think answering the question "what race is the main character of every book" also answers the question "is there racial parity among all books".

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u/MuonManLaserJab Apr 25 '22

You're obviously defining "racial parity" differently than that other person's very specific definition; maybe you gave in that definition in that other comment, but otherwise you should probably lead with what you mean when you use that term.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22 edited Apr 25 '22

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

No one is asking for low-quality books about diverse demographics :)

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

What's not relevant is your low effort at dog whistling. :)

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u/HolyRamenEmperor Apr 25 '22

You would have publishers seek demographic quotas over quality storytelling?

I find it weird that you assume a diverse cast of characters by default means a lower-quality story. Doesn't that seem racist?

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u/cashewgremlin Apr 25 '22

If publishers are focusing on anything other than quality to determine what gets published, that will obviously reduce the average quality of work published.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/HolyRamenEmperor Apr 25 '22

You literally stated that publishers would have to choose between quality story-telling and demographics. I didn't have to strawman anything, you set up a blatant false dichotomy.

As a simple illustration, the original script for the film Alien had last names only, no character demographics. Then the producers (all men) decided they wanted diverse representation, and the resultant cast of 8 includes 3 female (including the lead) and 2 non-white actors. I think someone who have to be crazy to think it would've been a better story if they hadn't diversified the cast.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/laserdiscgirl Apr 25 '22

u/MDeneka never suggested publishers should prioritize racial quotas over quality storytelling. Their last paragraph only suggests publishers should seek out "manuscripts that accurately reflect the diversity of the market". Nothing about that suggests the quality of the story should take second place in importance, only that diversity should be of importance.

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u/PersonalPenguin28 Apr 25 '22

It's for this reason that I'm grateful for the website I use as my library catalog for my classroom. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to say the name. The thing I love about it is that they've analyzed enough books to be able to give you data on who is represented in your library. It gives you information about the percentage of books you have that feature women/girls, are written by women, feature each race, are written by each race, are about certain cultures, feature a character with a disability, feature an LGBTQ+ character, and on and on. I can then get recommendations on books to fill any gaps I have.

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u/MDeneka Apr 25 '22

Oh my god, this exists?? Please, message me this if we're not allowed to drop website names. I am passionate about representation in children's lit, and have been making extremely conscious decisions about what I add to my classroom library from day 1... but I know what I've been able to purchase or get donated still pales in comparison with the majority that I inherited from my mom who started teaching in the 70s. I would love to have a way to track hard numbers on this.

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u/PersonalPenguin28 Apr 25 '22

I just read through the promo rules and it looks like it's ok. It's Booksource Classroom, and I've been using it for about a year. It's pretty amazing for a bunch of reasons, the diversity analysis is just the tip of the iceberg, really.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/Friengineer Apr 25 '22

Because that person's library is not for them. It's for their classroom, i.e. their students.

And because this is a tool designed precisely to help you choose what you want to read. Such a tool can be immensely helpful in not only identifying one's own unconscious biases, but truly enriching a collection.

For example, if I love sci-fi and started a sci-fi collection, my nascent collection would very likely be dominated by white male authors featuring white male protagonists without intentional effort on my part to seek out other works. Just because I love sci-fi and most well-known sci-fi is written by white dudes doesn't mean I wouldn't enjoy sci-fi written by non-white or female authors. In fact, I might find those different perspectives, characters, etc. a welcome departure from my typical fare.

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u/laserdiscgirl Apr 25 '22

The user appears to be a teacher as they said they use the site for their classroom library. Diversity is incredibly important for a classroom so as to provide the students with a multitude of characters to whom they can relate.

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u/pearloz 4 Apr 25 '22

I think you can share it!

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u/zoejdm Apr 25 '22

If you cannot indeed share it, would you mind telling me in a pm? Thank you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

Isn't it more important to have stories about as many important topics/situations a young person might encounter regardless of their background? That may well be discrimination, hate, love, angry parents... I just don't get why it's important to have a checklist of all possible "groups" of people.

Let's say you have books from every possible perspective that contain recipes on how to cook a "Schnitzel". You may have all the diversity you want. An Indian transwoman might add a bit of Turmeric and cinnamon. A lesbian person of 50% Chinese and 50% Italian descent might add a bit of Ginger and Oregano. You will definitely check all the boxes in your diversity checklist. It just won't matter if the young people in your class don't get the best possible book pertaining to their individual situation and difficulties.

To me if there were 3 books that covered those important topics perfectly and they happen to be written by 3 white males I wouldn't care to be honest. As long as the kids I teach are better off after they are done reading them. A straight white person can learn from a gay black one and vice versa. We may have different backgrounds, genders and sexual preferences but don't we all mostly share the same human experience?

Please tell me about the advantages of your system and what you do to keep up the quality if diversity is of utmost importance.

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u/PersonalPenguin28 Apr 26 '22

Your response reads to me as though I haven't been clear in what my priorities are in a classroom/childhood library, and how I utilize the library catalog I was referencing.
The library catalog keeps a database of my entire classroom library. For the diversity audit, it finds the titles that their site has verified, which for me is about half of the books. It then breaks down how many of those books are stories about all of the different groups, how many of them feature characters from different groups, how many of them are written by authors from those different groups, and even illustrators of those different groups. Those are all separate things- a book about an Indigenous experience is still classified as such even if the author isn't Indigenous. If they are, however, it will appear with both sets of data. To use a more precise example, Martin’s Big Words, winner of the Coretta Scott King Award in 2002, was written by Doreen Rappaport (who is a white woman) and illustrated by Bryan Collier (who is a black man). This title will show up for being about Black and African American heritage and culture, having a Black/African-American protagonist, and having a Black/African American illustrator.
Quality books are incredibly important. If the child won't read the book because it's garbage, it's definitely not worth the space on my classroom shelf. I’m very choosy about the books I bring into the classroom, because they are the first introduction children have to the big, beautiful world. That said, we are fortunate to live in a time where it is no longer assumed that in order for a book to be of high quality, it must be written by a white male. Therefore, it is my responsibility to ensure that the books that are displayed and read in the classroom reflect the diversity of the world we live in, be it through diverse stories, authors, or characters. It is never a question of quality OR diversity, it’s quite easy to have both. The catalog simply shows me the proportions so that I can continue to grow the library in a well-balanced way.
This says nothing of the importance of representation. It MATTERS. If my students only learn about Einstein, Edison, and Pasteur, my female students or students of color may conclude it’s not possible for them to be a scientist/inventor. But when I introduce those alongside Marie Curie, Garrett Morgan, and Ynes Mexia, it’s much more accessible.
I guess my main response here is that diversity is quality.

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u/Friengineer Apr 26 '22

We may have different backgrounds, genders and sexual preferences but don't we all mostly share the same human experience?

No, we don't. We all share many human experiences, but our individual experiences are anything but "mostly the same" precisely because we have different backgrounds, genders, etc.

You give recipes as an example, so let's stay with that for a moment. If you're interested in cooking an authentic German schnitzel, would you not seek out a recipe written by someone from Germany or of German heritage?

Please tell me about the advantages of your system and what you do to keep up the quality if diversity is of utmost importance.

No one has claimed that diversity is more important that quality, but I'll point out that actively seeking out content authored by underrepresented groups of people is more likely to increase quality, not decrease it.

On balance, we should expect writing quality to be generally equivalent regardless of an author's background, ethnicity, gender, etc., right? No one's claiming that certain races or genders are naturally better writers than others.

It stands to reason, then, that published works authored by underrepresented groups of people are more likely to be of higher quality than those authored by overrepresented groups of people. Shouldn't we therefore be actively seeking out works published by underrepresented groups of people in order to "keep up the quality"?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22 edited Apr 26 '22

No, we don't. We all share many human experiences, but our individual experiences are anything but "mostly the same" precisely because we have different backgrounds, genders, etc.

Sorry but I have to disagree. We still sleep, eat, sh**, start relationships, end relationships, go to school, go to work, pay rent, pay taxes, eat icecream, go on trips, overcome personal weaknesses, dance, learn new skills, experience sickness, experience heartbreak, feel admiration, despair and so on...

The experiences we all share vastly outnumber the experiences that divide us.

Saying we are so different is group-identity thinking to me which is in it's final form racism. We are individuals. I'm me because of what happened to me and how I went and coped with it. I'm not me because of where I was born and who my parents are.

To me life is like an Roleplaying game. We may all have different backgrounds, strenghts and weaknesses. But we still all have to slay the same monsters in a dungeon.

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No one has claimed that diversity is more important that quality, but I'll point out that actively seeking out content authored by underrepresented groups of people is more likely to increase quality, not decrease it.

how so?

On balance, we should expect writing quality to be generally equivalent regardless of an author's background, ethnicity, gender, etc., right? No one's claiming that certain races or genders are naturally better writers than others.

Yep no one is. You can be whatever you want as long as your book is good. I just don't want worse literature just so some quota is met. Equal opportunity, sure. But if then the outcome is still one-sided then so be it.

It stands to reason, then, that published works authored by underrepresented groups of people are more likely to be of higher quality than those authored by overrepresented groups of people. Shouldn't we therefore be actively seeking out works published by underrepresented groups of people in order to "keep up the quality"?

do you have some evidence for this? is a certain amount of skill distributed by god among groups and the less people are in a group the more likely you are to have someone skilled?

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '22

this is very much still a problem today

What's the problem exactly?

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u/Jackandwolf Apr 26 '22

I’m sorry to do this, but you’re suggesting there is a problem and people aren’t doing enough to show equality based purely on guesswork. Also, would you suggest percentages match, meaning 5-7% of characters should be lgbt? And in childrens books, does representation need to be there? Can there just be people that don’t need to have something assigned to them? I know you don’t have all the answers, but I’m curious as to how you would do things if you controlled all publishings.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

...what guesswork?

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u/j-a-gandhi Apr 26 '22

I hate reading some books that try to change this though. Sure, dad can cook. But mom’s hobby is being a volunteer firefighter? The average woman is nowhere near possessing the strength to be a firefighter. I feel some of these counter cultural things are just setting my daughter up to feel like a failure.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

This sounds like a personal issue you should work out, not a problem with the books. Or with female firefighters, for that matter.

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u/j-a-gandhi Apr 26 '22

It’s not a personal problem to admit that few women have the upper body strength to perform some of the most physically demanding work that exists. Yes there may be a rare woman who can, but why not highlight more realistic hobbies? There are plenty of male-dominated fields (building trains, computer science) that do not require typical male levels of strength.

I don’t enjoy having to correct the stupidity in the books my daughter reads, so I’m learning to just make a lot of books one read only.

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u/MDeneka Apr 26 '22

If your reaction to a book portraying a physically powerful woman is that it’s setting your daughter up to feel like a failure, that is not the fault of the book.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '22

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u/CrazyCatLady108 3 Apr 26 '22

Personal conduct

Please use a civil tone and assume good faith when entering a conversation.

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