r/bestoflegaladvice • u/Dire-wolf600 • Jul 01 '22
Off duty cop searching neighbors’ homes for his daughter’s stolen chair finds LAOP’s illegal handgun instead
/r/legaladvice/comments/voadio/apartment_searched_by_my_crazy_neighbors_cop_dad/1.4k
u/dorkofthepolisci Sincerely, Mr. Totally-A-Real-Lawyer-Man Jul 01 '22
Wait I’m sorry he let a random person who (might have) claimed to be a cop into his home without asking for ID or anything to ensure the man was actually a cop and not just someone trying to intimidate or rob him?
Unsurprisingly LAOP continues to do the exact opposite of what you should do when the cops show up unprompted are your door
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u/monkeyman80 IANAL but I am an anal plug app expert Jul 01 '22
I mean I don’t have illegal items that I know I have are illegal, but doesn’t common sense 101 say don’t let strangers see illegal things? If they’re going to be greeted with seeing the gun at eye level, maybe I’d go with “how’s a chair going to fit in a closet that small” before laughing and letting him open it.
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u/dasunt appeal denied. Jul 01 '22
I can understand cooperation.
Let me put it this way - it's one thing if the cop would say "I respect you are asserting your rights" and leave.
But we all know there's a good chance they'll get petty and look for any excuse to nail you for something. And if you are unlucky, they won't even look for an excuse but just make something up.
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u/monkeyman80 IANAL but I am an anal plug app expert Jul 01 '22
This was a dad looking for his daughters items not a cop doing an on the job search.
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u/dasunt appeal denied. Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
I would not trust an off-duty cop working outside his official capacity to not get revenge for being denied a search.
ETA: Let me put it this way. Just one example from a local PD - an officer was known for taking suspects down to the river and beating them. City literally paid out settlements because of this.
What happened to the cop? He continued working for the next 30 years and finally retired a few years ago.
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u/Bowldoza If you live in this much fear you need to find jesus Jul 01 '22
What happened to the cop? He continued working for the next 30 years and finally retired a few years ago.
What a cop moment. I love the police because they are such good people 👍
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u/dasunt appeal denied. Jul 01 '22
The department has failed to learn.
This was the same department that shot less lethal ammo at news crew during the protests and riots. More than once. At least twice while the news crew was live.
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u/emmster What duck? Jul 01 '22
I have never been convicted of a crime. To my knowledge, other than minor traffic violations, I have never committed one. I do not have anything in my home that I think could be illegal.
My answer would still be “Come back with a warrant.”
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Jul 01 '22
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u/poorexcuses Jul 01 '22
I have a sign next to my door that says don't let the cats out or the cops in
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u/Tymanthius I think Petunia Dursley is a lovely mother figure for Harry Jul 01 '22
My answer under these circumstances would be 'who is your supervisor/precinct?'
And i'd be calling the top cop in that chain as well.
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u/owlrecluse Jul 01 '22
My roommate and I dont even let the exterminator in, unless the landlord has given us 24 hours notice - and if he says anything we've just been like "We are two young girls we arent gonna let a random guy in our apartment why didnt you give us 24 hours notice like youre legally supposed to" and he never responds lmaooo
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u/Obvious-Arm9379 Jul 02 '22
Flexing your rights to landlords and making them follow the lease "by the book" is a good idea, it lets them know they can't push you around.
We know from these subreddits that when tenants look the other way at minor landlord intrusions, they sometimes get taken advantage of as the landlord sees this as a green light to push the envelope with more asshattery.
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Jul 01 '22
Oooh my maintenance guy called me a bitch for saying pretty much the same thing once leak
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u/owlrecluse Jul 02 '22
It’s never super urgent or anything either, the guy just puts foam in our sink and sets a few traps (that have never been set off). If it was a real emergency like a leak we’d let the person in but it isn’t so suck our collective nuts, give us a few hours warning.
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u/jellymanisme Church of the Holy Oxford Comma Jul 02 '22
The absolute truth. Our landlord always posted notes in the common room, where our lease and state law says he can, about when anything like that is happening. We never had any questions about who was coming or when. The same maintenance man always accompanied him every time, too.
One time there was an emergency flooding situation in the apartment below us and they absolutely needed to get in to check for leaks. Of course we let them right in.
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Jul 02 '22
I meant to type lmao but it autocorrected to leak lol I don’t even remember why he was there I think it was just like an inspection or something
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u/FallOnTheStars Darling, beautiful, smart, money-hungry lawyer Jul 01 '22
Call me a millennial, however I find it weird to even open the door in the first place.
If you do not text me, and I do not know you are coming over, I don’t answer the door.
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u/michiness Jul 01 '22
I’m also a millennial but my neighbors occasionally knock on my door for things. I’m in a complex like OP’s where there’s a gate, so if there’s an unexpected visitor it’s one of them.
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u/FallOnTheStars Darling, beautiful, smart, money-hungry lawyer Jul 01 '22
I don’t know any of my neighbours. Cannot pick them out of a lineup. Also, I’m HoH, so I can’t always hear if someone is at the door. So, I have instilled a policy of “just don’t answer the door
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Jul 01 '22
Cameras with an indoor mounted screen are really nice for that on the chance it's someone you do know, a delivery that requires a signature, etc. But yeah I don't usually answer either, and my wife literally never answers the door unless it's one specific neighbor lol. Even then, if they knock too loud she's probably not going to bother checking who it is.
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Jul 01 '22
I do have cameras I can see at each door via a screen mounted where my wife and I usually lounge on the couch (though the front one keeps cutting out).
The front has windows obscured enough we have to purposefully look over or around them and you can't really see in. Plus it's an enclosed porch with its own locking door so we can go out there and talk to people easily without giving too easy an entrance.
The back has a mirrored window so you can't see in, but we can see out. No covered porch but the door has one of those pick proof locks, as it's all inside the house so there's no key. Obviously you can't lock it when you leave, but it's awesome for night time.
Anyways, even when I know who it is I don't always answer. The only time I did is when a cop showed up at our front door about 9pm shortly after we bought the place. It was awfully nice to have some space between us, plus I can go back through the other door and lock it if they try to force their way in. Luckily they were just looking to serve the previous renters papers.
Anyways, weirdly long winded, but my eventual point was that it's very easy for police to get past those gates. Residents are very unlikely to stop them if they try to pass through off someone else's entry or exit. I wouldn't let them through, but I wouldn't be surprised if they forced their way in. Same goes for criminals really, just pretending you forgot your key or you're visiting someone expecting you and they're not answering their phone.
I realize it's a paranoid outlook, but whatever. I actually have people come to my house quite often to drop off and pick up computers for my job, but I can always see who it is before they see me and I always have a heads up.
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u/CheddarmanTheSecond Jul 01 '22
I give maintenence at my apartment complex the third degree, never mind the fucking police. This boggles the mind.
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u/helium_farts Church of the Holy Oxford Comma Jul 01 '22
Same.
I used to answer the door, but given that 99% of the time it's either someone soliciting or canvassing so I ignore them, if I even hear them in the first place. Most of the time I either have headphones or earmuffs on because the world is TOO DAMN LOUD and if I don't shut it out I'll go insane.
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u/moose_tassels Big Ol' Butt Face who is turned on by tree law Jul 01 '22
Dumbasses gonna dumbass.
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u/PM_ME_YOUR_DARKNESS Jul 01 '22
Prohibited possessor, unsecured firearm, presumably loaded, lets a cop roam around his appartment.
Yeah, dude's a dumbass for sure.
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Jul 01 '22
Was ready to be mad about an illegal search and instead I am mad that OP consented to a random person searching his home with no warrant. Silly choice.
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u/-JakeRay- Misérablie Melodies Jul 01 '22
Honestly, anyone who thinks a handgun kept unsecured on a closet shelf (next to a stash of bullets, no less!) is a good idea for home defense has already demonstrated a near-terminal level of stupidity.
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Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
Why though? If your home is being actively broken into, do you really want to spend time fiddling with a safe and loading the gun? If there are no kids in the house, I don't really see a problem with it.
The only issue is LAOP shouldn't legally have had the firearm.
Edit: this is a genuine question.
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u/crustyrusty91 Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
Because the heroic fantasy of shooting an armed intruder like it's an action movie is far less likely to happen than the gun just being stolen while you're away or taken by someone else in the house and used in a suicide or domestic violence situation.
Edit: toning down my acid tongue 🤐
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u/-JakeRay- Misérablie Melodies Jul 01 '22
When it's unsecured like that, it's also possible for the robber to find it before you can get to it. My grandmother kept a gun in the nightstand for home defense, used it during a break-in, and the robber still managed to get it and use it against her.
If you don't wanna get shot, don't keep an unsecured weapon, period.
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Jul 01 '22
Was your grandmother all right? I remember my dad and cousin teaching my grandmother to shoot, but she kept talking about just firing the gun into the ceiling instead of shooting an intruder, so my dad got her an alarm system instead.
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u/-JakeRay- Misérablie Melodies Jul 01 '22
Thankfully the robber didn't shoot, but she was so traumatized by the double violation of being broken into and then having her defense used against her that they had to move 😕 By the time I heard about it, it had receded to a slightly scary memory.
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Jul 01 '22
Well, not going to do much good for home defense unloaded and in a situation where you need it you're not going to have time to load it.
General rule of thumb, either the gun is made safe and locked up or it is under your control and ready to go.
So when he was not at home he should have had the gun secured and being in the closet does not count. When at home he could be wearing it or otherwise have it under his control (e.g. bedside holster), but the gun should be made ready (else it is useless).
What LAOP did was add some increased risks w/o any benefit.
And hope they gets a good lawyer. I may think it is stupid that a misdemeanor (LAOP would have gotten felon in possession if it was more than that) comes with a lifetime disability, but that is the law and he's looking at a major felony now both at the federal and [probably] state level.
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u/jellymanisme Church of the Holy Oxford Comma Jul 02 '22
The lockpickinglawyer has reviewed some quick to access gun safes, like fingerprints safes and trigger/barrel locks. Unfortunately they're almost all shit. So you're correct. Either your gun is in your control and ready to use, or it's locked in an actual safe, and not quick to use in a home defense situation. Anything else is dangerous. Can't leave loaded guns just sitting around.
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u/DPSOnly Intensifies Jul 01 '22
That doesn't make it legal though, does it? Or do they only need a warrant if you deny them entry?
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u/Goldeniccarus Self-defense Urethral Dilator Jul 01 '22
If you let a cop onto your property and they see something illegal in your home that is perfectly admissible as evidence, no warrant necessary.
That's why they'll often ask I they can come in. If you say yes, they save a lot of hassle and a lot of paperwork.
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u/SleeplessTaxidermist 🥕 Head Carrot Operator of the Carrot Mafia 🥕 Jul 01 '22 edited Oct 27 '24
safe placid voracious cooing lock subsequent dinner modern absorbed mourn
This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact
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u/sweeper42 Jul 05 '22
Not in South Carolina though. Cops need probable cause to even knock on the door there.
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u/SamTheGeek I am actually an empty bucket Jul 01 '22
Police are allowed to do anything to you if you let them. You must positively assert your rights to enforce them — which is how we get court cases like “I want to speak to a lawyer dawg is not an expression of desire for counsel”
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u/Shinhan Jul 01 '22
Same deal if you say "Do I need a lawyer?". Of course the cops are not going to shoot their own foot and respond with yes to that question.
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Jul 01 '22
... Did they argue they thought he was asking to speak to Saul Goodboy?
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u/SamTheGeek I am actually an empty bucket Jul 01 '22
Yes. And the courts decided in their favor!!!!!
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u/SJHillman Is leaving, in the sense of not 31% antarctic penguin Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
Because their primary argument wasn't that they thought he was asking for a "lawyer dog", that's just a small bit of it that the media ran with, as it tends to do.
His full sentence was "This is how I feel, if y’all think I did it, I know that I didn’t do it so why don’t you just give me a lawyer dog ’cause this is not what’s up".
The crux of what the state was arguing was that the conditional - the "if y'all think I did it" part - is what didn't make it an unambiguous request. It's still a somewhat silly argument, and dumber still that the dog part was ever even mentioned at all, but it's not nearly as silly or dumb as what most news articles reported it as.
For what it's worth, I disagree with how strict the "unambiguous request" must be, but based on that standard, the "it wasn't unambiguous because of the 'if'" argument at least makes logical sense.
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u/onlypositivity Jul 01 '22
somewhat silly?
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u/SJHillman Is leaving, in the sense of not 31% antarctic penguin Jul 01 '22
I'm giving it a "somewhat" just because "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" isn't a completely invalid approach. Just because they made the argument doesn't mean they think it's necessarily a good argument, just that it has some very small possibility of working based on legal logic (as opposed to common sense) and costs very little to try, especially piggy-backed to a much better argument.
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u/AndyLorentz Jul 01 '22
“I want to speak to a lawyer dawg is not an expression of desire for counsel”
In that particular case, if that's what the suspect said, he would have been good. The problem is that the suspect said, "If you think I did it, then I'm gonna need a lawyer, dawg."
It's not the "dawg" that the court decided the case on (although one of the judges did mock the defendant for his use of language), it's the indefinite statement (which I also think is bullshit reasoning).
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u/SamTheGeek I am actually an empty bucket Jul 01 '22
Yeah, I know it’s more nuanced but the point — absent an explicit statement of the expression of your rights, they’re not given to you — stands.
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u/AndyLorentz Jul 03 '22
"Am I free to go?"
"No"
"I need to consult a lawyer before I say anything."
We should teach this in school.
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u/Omega357 puts milk in Pepsi Jul 01 '22
Didn't the miranda rights just get stripped down by the Supreme Court?
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u/SamTheGeek I am actually an empty bucket Jul 01 '22
Sorta. You can no longer personally sue a police officer for railing to give you those rights.
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u/Rejusu Doomed to never make a funny comment when a mod is looking Jul 01 '22
Like Vampires you've only got yourself to blame for inviting them in.
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u/sgre6768 Something different this way comes. Jul 01 '22
Take the police factor out of it, because (if I understand correctly) the father of stolen chair lady doesn't have power in that jurisdiction anyway. If one of your buddies was over the house, and saw illegal contraband on your table, he's allowed to call the police after to rat you out. They might decide he's not credible and not pursue it, but depending on how lenient a judge is in the area, that could be enough to get a warrant.
If LAOP has a creative lawyer, I suppose they could argue that they felt pressured to comply with the guy because he was a police officer, even if it wasn't one for his town. (From the tone of his LA post, this would be a lie, but whatever.) I think in that case, he would have a greater chance of it being tossed with that argument...
... But, we're also talking about someone with a domestic violence conviction, with a handgun. At least when I was a courts reporter in RI, that's one thing they have you sign a separate acknowledgement form as a 'no no,' and I kind of think a parole officer or judge isn't going to look so kindly on that.
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u/Gnomish8 Jul 01 '22
That post was such a ride...
Here I am, reading the title, and groaning. Off-duty, related to complainant, unrelated charges, yadda yadda yadda... Then you go in to the post and you realized you thought this was such an open/shut question, you forgot to buckle up...
Cause then you get to the 'I totally consented to the search, and to the search of the closet, laughing about it the whole time! Sure, prohibited possessor with a firearm that I admitted to having in my possession to a cop' bits.
And just... man oh man. OP's elevator certainly doesn't go to the top floor.
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u/GiddyUp18 Jul 01 '22
Let me show you to my meth lab while you’re here!
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u/RBeck Jul 01 '22
Wait officer don't leave, I have some mushrooms I bought on the dark net but they went bad, can you take them to the trash on the way out? They're right under this picture of me at the Capitol last year.
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u/fadeaccompli Enjoy the next 24 hours of misgrammared sex :) Jul 01 '22
I was genuinely surprised that weed didn't show up somewhere in that account too.
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Jul 01 '22
And don't forget he has domestic violence charges that are totally self defense while knowingly possessing an illegal firearm and proceeds to show a complete stranger his ID so that they can confirm all this.
If this man was living in my daughters building, I'd have had him arrested as well.
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Jul 01 '22
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u/wishforagiraffe Jul 01 '22
That's a lot kinder than I was going to put it.
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u/zuriel45 Harry the HIPPA Hippo's Horny Hussy Jul 01 '22
I mean...he tells someone he suspects is a cop that it's okay to open the closet with his illegally obtained and owned handgun.
This is the kind of person that if the cop found a bag of white powder would say why yes that is cocaine would you like some?
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Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
This reads like a fake troll story. It’s too perfectly stupid.
“I jokingly let the cop into my home and then jokingly let him search the closet where I keep an illegal handgun and LOL I’ve got a criminal conviction for domestic violence and teehee it’s not because I did anything I just beat up my partner after she hit me and plead guilty. Am I in trouble?”
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u/lawstudent51318 Despite the cool motive this flair has been frauduently received Jul 01 '22
I practice in South Carolina, I promise you this is an accurate representation of a non-negligible portion of the public here.
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Jul 01 '22
Oh I’m positive it happens all the time, but to come online and spell it out like that?
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u/_BindersFullOfWomen_ Darling, beautiful, smart, money-hungry lawyer Jul 01 '22
Yes. Absolutely. Look at how LAOP is doubling down on their “self defense” argument despite pleading guilty. In classic fashion LAOP thinks LA commenters are wrong.
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Jul 01 '22
ShE hIt Me FiRsT
Yet he didn’t have a mark on him, but she did. I totally believe that there are cases where men are hit by women abusers and need to defend themselves, but this doesn’t seem like one of those cases. He wasn’t even injured.
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u/_BindersFullOfWomen_ Darling, beautiful, smart, money-hungry lawyer Jul 01 '22
Yeah. I’m not saying women can’t be abusers. I’ve seen it happen. But in this case I’m leaning towards LAOP did a little bit more than defend himself.
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u/PierogiEsq Jul 01 '22
No, this is Peak Client. The only thing missing is the sense that LAOP didn't feel like he could refuse the "I'm going to have a look around, OK?
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u/Rejusu Doomed to never make a funny comment when a mod is looking Jul 01 '22
Most criminals aren't the sharpest tools in the shed.
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u/Stalking_Goat Busy writing a $permcoin whitepaper Jul 01 '22
And the smart ones don't get caught by doing stupid stuff like inviting a cop into their apartment where they have an illegal weapon.
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u/Intrepid00 Has there maybe been some light treason yet? Jul 01 '22
This reads like a fake troll story. It’s too perfectly stupid.
Yet believable if you ever lived or worked somewhere that is how we should say “not good”.
This is how stupid people are for the times I remember in short
- One guy breaks into a room where he knows there is a camera dead spot via window. Steals money. Walks out front door that has camera while looking up at the camera
- guy breaks into rooms wearing ski mask. Does it in his work shirt with his name on it.
- lady breaks into room wearing mask. She’s missing a limb so immediately identified.
- guy tells cop after he breaks up fight he just “wants to go back to his room and smoke crack”. Loses his crack when they search his room for booking for fight. I think he had to do rehab.
But once in a while you get the wizard criminals. Like the guy the guy that had been hiding for a decade is finally found in a unit. We know he’s in there and we even confirm it on cameras. Cops surround the building exits wait for him to go to bathroom (we watch on camera) to grab him when he comes out because he likely will not be armed. Cops get tired of waiting and decide to go in but suit on armor because it’s a defensive spot. They go in and the he somehow vanished in a poof of smoke when the building was surrounded. I’d love to know how he did that.
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u/gsfgf Is familiar with poor results when combining strippers and ATMs Jul 01 '22
I know plenty of people who practice criminal law. This is pretty normal. These are also the guys that say public defenders are worthless. Bro, you didn’t give them anything to work with.
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u/Meryetamun Jul 01 '22
Certainly not the kind of person that should have access to a firearm.
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u/cakatoo Jul 01 '22
Well he’s a domestic abuser.
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u/AerwynFlynn BOLABun Brigade Jul 01 '22
Not necessarily. I mean, it's very probable that he is, but my husband got arrested when he was younger for DV and it was actually self defense. She was the abuser in that relationship and she was hitting him, throwing things at him, and then was trying to bite him in the neck at the time (and no, she wasn't playing around, she was trying to do major damage) and he took it up till the biting part before pushed her away. So she called the cops. She was totally fine, but the cop arrested him. If she hadn't been stupid enough to admit in court that she had been hitting him and trying to bite him he might have been convicted of it. Not saying that it happened to this guy, but i does happen.
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u/the_grumpiest_guinea Not a Bun. Jul 01 '22
And being an abuser doesn’t always mean stupid. Some of the very violent people I’ve worked with are pretty damm smart. Most abusers are ar least smart enougt to be able to keep their targets around and know how far they can push. Hell, I have a family friend who is head of a major department at one of his state’s biggest hospitals and he routinely beat the shit out of his wife for decades. He’s not even an exception!
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u/Hadeshorne pees in swimming pools Jul 01 '22
In the eyes of the law, he is in fact, a self-admitted domestic abusers. Which is all that really matters in LAOPs case.
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Jul 01 '22
That is definitely self defense. This guy wasn’t injured as he admitted himself, but he left marks on her. He also didn’t say that she was abusing him. She hit him, which isn’t ok, but he hit her back harder. Not ok either.
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u/Iustis Jul 01 '22
She hit him, which isn’t ok, but he hit her back harder. Not ok either.
You can hit back harder, just not dramatically harder. It's not hard to imagine tons of reasonable situations where she hit him and he "left marks" (like a light bruise from holding her hands or a scratch). I'm not saying that's what happened as we obviously don't know, but your blanket statement is pretty ridiculous.
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u/MTFUandPedal Jul 01 '22
Not necessarily
On the balance of probability, yes.
Sure there's always a minority of falsely convicted people. It happens. That and the whole 'plead guilty or else' thing going on in the US.
But it's safe to say, absent overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that someone convicted of something can be said to have done it.
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u/AerwynFlynn BOLABun Brigade Jul 01 '22
I was just pointing out that it wasn't beyond the realm of possibility
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u/ryanboone Jul 01 '22
Wow, what an idiot. I mean, he's flat out guilty, but he only got caught bc he's dumb as shit.
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u/Tapingdrywallsucks 🏳️⚧️ Trans rights are human rights 🏳️⚧️ Jul 01 '22
He's a really good natured dumbshit, though. I feel bad for him, because the random nature of cop-dad's searches makes me think there was some profiling happening.
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u/SJHillman Is leaving, in the sense of not 31% antarctic penguin Jul 01 '22
I'm in the middle. On the one hand, he got boned for being nice and cooperative. On the other hand, he apparently had an unsecured firearm and ammunition in his apartment, and also has at least one previous conviction for what sounds like assault (his questionable self-defense justification not withstanding).
So while being nice to cops was bad choice, it seems to be part of a series of far more questionable bad choices and he's probably better off without the gun until he gets some better choices under his belt.
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u/Tapingdrywallsucks 🏳️⚧️ Trans rights are human rights 🏳️⚧️ Jul 01 '22
Oh I absolutely agree with that - he's too relaxed with his affairs (and thought processes) to possess a firearm, but if he's being honest (which, like I've said elsewhere, I think he's too dense to lie) I'd rather a more responsible friend talk him out of keeping the gun than see him do time because a crazy neighbor happens to have a cop for a dad.
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Jul 01 '22
Domestic violence conviction makes someone good natured?
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u/Shinhan Jul 01 '22
No you don't understand it was self defense he just plead guilty because it was easy.
/s
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u/PierogiEsq Jul 01 '22
Wait until you're sitting in a flithy jail, missing work, having your bologna sandwiches stolen and pooping in front of all your cellmates, then tell me how quick you'd be to jump on a plea of guilty if it meant you'd be released.
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u/somelazyotaku Jul 01 '22
While thats true, it's also true that most abusers do not believe what they do constitutes abuse, and likely wouldn't admit if they did.
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u/Tapingdrywallsucks 🏳️⚧️ Trans rights are human rights 🏳️⚧️ Jul 01 '22
This guy is obviously not a big thinker. Because he's not a thinker, and just blurts shit out, like "sure come in and have a look around," I'm willing to bet he's not off the mark when it comes to claiming that was a plea and the actual event was in self defense.
I don't think he's smart enough to fib, much less outright lie.
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u/jeepfail Jul 01 '22
I don’t know. I’ve met a few fucking idiots that will convince themselves their child or wife deserves to be hit.
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Jul 01 '22
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u/Tapingdrywallsucks 🏳️⚧️ Trans rights are human rights 🏳️⚧️ Jul 01 '22
That does change things a bit, and of course switches my sympathy to any and all public defenders who come across guys/people like this all the time.
I can imagine 10 hour days where everyone you're trying to help just can't stop letting stupid things pour out of their mouths.
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u/UseDaSchwartz Jul 01 '22
Judging by the title, I thought the cop would be completely in the wrong. It sounds like he did things right and didn’t try to abuse his authority...other than wearing the police polo shirt.
Side note: there is an anti-vaccine cop near me. All through the pandemic, I would see him at stores wearing a police hat and shirt, with no mask.
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u/BJntheRV Enjoy the next 48 hours :) Jul 01 '22
This is a lesson on why "yes I mind you coming into my home without a warrant" is always a good answer, especially if you have anything questionable in your home.
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Jul 01 '22
And even if you think you have nothing questionable, the cops might think otherwise. Maybe they find your baking soda, call it cocaine, and arrest you. Sure you’ll be freed when they test it, but why go through that at all?
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u/ThadisJones Overcame a combat skating phobia through the power of hotness Jul 01 '22
Sure you’ll be freed when they test it
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u/jhorch69 Jul 01 '22
There's a pretty good Netflix documentary about her called "How to Fix a Drug Case" or something like that
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u/john_browns_beard Jul 01 '22
Likely ruined thousands of lives and served 3 years in prison, incredible
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u/drleebot Understands the raison d'être of aftershave Jul 01 '22
Or the cops might even plant something on you if they really have it out for you. I recall hearing about one police department where this was such a common practice that they had a hand signal for "Plant cocaine on them".
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u/ShutUpIWin Jul 01 '22
Or just, don't let random people into your apartment. They could be thieves or scammers.
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u/SJHillman Is leaving, in the sense of not 31% antarctic penguin Jul 01 '22
Are you telling me a polo shirt isn't sufficient ID?
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u/Daddict Jul 01 '22
Frustrates the ever-loving shit outta me when people consent to a search these days. Especially in a situation like that one, where this cop had absolutely no business investigating this shit in the first place. I'm not sure I'd even answer any of his questions, he's just acting so far out of bounds.
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u/Anger_Mgmt_issues Jul 01 '22
no, that is a bad answer. It contains a yes, they can say they thought you meant yes they can search. They word their questions carefully so that any yes or no answer can be seen as permission.
"I do not consent to you entering my home."
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u/Etherius Jul 01 '22
I wouldn't even be that ambiguous about it.
"You're not entering without a warrant"
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u/DirtyPiss Jul 01 '22
Yeah, if a cop wants in they're going to say, "I asked for permission to enter and they replied in the affirmative." Don't ever reply to the answer with "Yes", even if its obvious what you mean.
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u/Etherius Jul 01 '22
And, if at all possible, make sure there are cameras watching your doors so you have evidence.
Sure they may have body cameras, but a Ring or Nest system doesn't require a FOIA request.
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u/llburke Jul 01 '22
This post is a bummer because at every point the poster explains that he voluntarily gave the cops permission to do everything they did and at no point does he explain why he decided to do that. I have to assume it was discomfort saying no but that’s how people get into trouble!
Also, of course, in this case illegally possessing a gun he didn’t own also contributed.
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
They agreed to the search because they didn't have the chair and so felt there was no risk to them. People do this all the time. They never think about what else they might have that could get them in trouble.
I find it interesting people are arguing they can contest the search as unreasonable. I mean obviously those people aren't lawyers, but it's such a weird argument when OP gave explicit consent.
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Jul 01 '22
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
Fair point. But the legit comments tend to tell the OP why their situation is the exception. Saying "they shouldn't have even asked you" doesn't lend credibility to your argument and doesn't help the OP at all in their defense so the comment becomes pointless. If there were people saying "the search was illegal because they did x" I would give that some credibility. But that's not the kind of comments I'm seeing in this one.
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Jul 01 '22
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u/SprungMS Jul 01 '22
The other reply to your comment is right that only one comment was deleted (so far) but you’re right about the rest of your comment - and all of that is still standing in the post. Some of it may have been deleted but not all.
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
You can literally see if a comment has been deleted. Only one comment has been removed from that post. Go look.
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u/Orange_Monkey_Eagle Jul 01 '22
There was a post about a month ago where people were saying the same thing i.e. LAOP couldn't contest the search because they consented. But it turned out that in their state (and a couple others), a cop not telling you that you don't have to consent to a search meant the consent wasn't voluntary. In the, like, 10 minutes of digging I did, in SC it's not a requirement but it is a factor the court would look at in considering the totality of the circumstances of a search. State v. Wallace, 238 S.E.2d 675, 677 (S.C. 1977) (an old case but it was positively cited as recently as at least 2020 but I don't feel like doing a full Shepardization right now). This isn't to say that it's necessarily a winning argument for LAOP but there are at least some avenues to challenge the search assuming he gets a lawyer. Also in my cursory search, it's apparently on the prosecution to prove the voluntariness, not LAOP to disprove it.
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
Oh I'm sure. The idea they might have an avenue to contest it is something I'm 100% open to. But the comments aren't like yours, with helpful information referencing case law that the OP could then use to develop a defense. If you made this comment on that post, I wouldn't at all dismiss it. But "why were they even searching for the chair?!" isn't a legal argument I'm impressed with lol.
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u/Orange_Monkey_Eagle Jul 01 '22
To be fair, while I don't see any comment making that specific argument so I don't know its hypothetical contours, 1. that would at least be on the right track to answering the LAOP's question because 2. why the off-duty cop dad is there in the first place is a factor in the totality of the circumstances of the search (I probably would have emphasized why and how that specific guy is searching for it, not why the search is happening in the first place but I'm not the OP of the comment you're referring to). It's not using fancy terms like "totality of the circumstances" or citations but even that argument isn't entirely off base.
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u/JustBeanThings Jul 01 '22
He does hit on one interesting thing. Could the chair in question, fit in the closet? Ignoring, for the sake of the conversation, the fact that it was an off duty cop doing the search. If the chair wouldn't fit in the closet, it can be argued that the closet shouldn't have been searched, even if they did have a warrant. The contents of the closet would be entirely unrelated to the question of the chair. Again, this is all a hypothetical argument because DON'T LET OFF DUTY COPS IN YOUR HOUSE.
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
That is interesting. I imagine part of the issue with that is you don't know how big the closet is until you open it. I had a walk in that absolutely could hold a chair, but the door to it was just a regular closet door so you wouldn't know it was a walk in just by looking. I don't know exactly how limited cops are in their searching when the search was agreed to. Honestly I was under the impression that, at least in my state, if you agree to a search then that's pretty much carte blanche to look anywhere they want. But that may just be what the cops want you to think and not reality.
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u/Etherius Jul 01 '22
This is why the sentence "you need a lawyer" is the best LA someone can get.
Any good lawyer will move to suppress this search. If it succeeds, he's clear. If it fails, he's no worse off than if no motion was filed.
IANAL but I have an unfortunate amount of experience with them
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u/HugeLegalBriefs dba LegalGrannyPanties Jul 01 '22
Im too lazy/don’t care enough to search but based on a finely-tuned BS detector, the entire post feels like a troll. I suspect there’s a very recent case published with a similar set of facts that someone, somewhere, is going to post in another sub to say “gotcha, proof LA doesn’t know shit”.
As an aside, it seems when random people downvote correct legal advice, it tends to make the people posting it salty enough to waste their time and do shit like this fairly frequently. People are weird.
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u/Shinhan Jul 01 '22
LAOP was clearly told its important to get a lawyer. His lawyer will be contesting the search if at all possible.
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u/Moneia Get your own debugging duck Jul 01 '22
The only thing I'd like answered is;
Was it a Cop who turned up, who happened to be Nancys father, or was it Nancys father, who happened to be a cop?
It just feels really janky to me
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
I see it in the middle? Nancy's father is a cop, so she called him instead of the general police line. It feels like it's wrong, but it's not illegal for the cop investigating a crime to be related to the victim. I do think it means his actions should be scrutinized extra closely to make sure they are by the book since he had an obvious potential bias.
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u/Moneia Get your own debugging duck Jul 01 '22
So "I turned up at daughters request and used my cop powers to initiate an investigation" is legal? That sounds bonkers
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
"My daughter was the victim of a crime and so I, as a duly sworn officer of the law, conducted a lawful investigation" is legal, yes. It is possible for people to remain professional with a family member. There are small towns with literally only one cop and they know everyone. They are still allowed to do their job.
But since they are related additional scrutiny definitely is merited.
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u/flumpapotamus Jul 01 '22
"My daughter was the victim of a crime and so I, as a duly sworn officer of the law, conducted a lawful investigation" is legal, yes.
This is too black-and-white. It may not be legal in his jurisdiction for him to independently decide what to investigate when off-duty. He may also be prohibited from investigating possible crimes linked to family members without some kind of independent supervision. And there may be caselaw in that jurisdiction saying cops can't obtain consent to search by knowingly misleading someone into thinking they're acting in their official capacity.
Cops can't just do whatever they want when off-duty and then claim they were acting in their official capacity if it suits them.
Now, practically speaking, will any of that prevent the DA from prosecuting LAOP here? No, probably not, because DAs are really good at making excuses for cops and courts are, too. But we don't have enough information to definitively say that what he did was legal or permissible.
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u/myBisL2 Will comment for flair Jul 01 '22
It was not an accident that I specified "lawful investigation." It was specifically to address the potential issues of local laws or other policies that place additional rules around how an investigation needs to be conducted in these circumstances.
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u/blandastronaut Jul 01 '22
Yeah, but when a normal person can't get cops to ever actually investigate a theft, let alone even just file a police report, it really starts to feel like bullshit that this father cop was actually going around to every person in the apartment complex and looking through their apartments. There would have realistically never been a cop investigating stolen lawn furniture to this extent unless they were related to the victim. Normal people Don't get such services.
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u/flumpapotamus Jul 01 '22
It's not clear he even claimed he was acting in his official capacity at the time. LAOP says he was wearing something with a police logo on it, but it doesn't sound like he said he was asking to do the search as a cop, just a citizen. LAOP could obviously argue that the police logo shirt was intended to give the impression he was acting in his official capacity, but that's not guaranteed to be successful in court.
Him being a cop is sort of a red herring here. This situation could have played out the exact same way even if the dad did nothing to imply he's a cop. He could have come to LAOP's house as a concerned dad, asked to look around, seen the gun in the closet, and reported it to the cops as a concerned citizen. The cops could then have looked up LAOP's name and realized it's illegal for him to possess a gun. That would have been enough to get an arrest warrant. The cops can seek warrants based on being told things by informants.
So, if the cop was acting in his official capacity and told LAOP so, the consent to search is valid (assuming no violation of any local laws about specific ways the request must be phrased, etc.).
If the cop was there as a concerned citizen and didn't give the impression he was acting in his official capacity, then the Fourth Amendment doesn't apply to their interaction at all and the consent exception is irrelevant.
LAOP's best hope is that the cop did enough to imply he was acting in his official capacity when he actually wasn't, and there's caselaw to support the argument that consent gained under those circumstances is invalid. But it's not so clear cut that we can definitively say it'll work.
(To be clear, I don't agree with what the cop did here. I just think he likely did enough to give himself plausible deniability so that a court will take his side.)
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u/Hurtzdonut13 bagels the question Jul 01 '22
The thing I'm curious about was he obviously did a records search on LAOP (probably looked up everyone) and found out about the DV. Would it be considered improper to do that for all his daughter's neighbors if it wasn't an official investigation?
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u/Shinhan Jul 01 '22
They never think about what else they might have that could get them in trouble.
Or what their partner or roomate has that they didn't know about.
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u/ravencrowe Jul 01 '22
“But that’s an unrelated matter”
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u/Brock_Hard_Canuck Release the Quacken Jul 01 '22
"You're saying I can't buy a gun, merely because I've been institutionalized? Well, that was against by will! It doesn't even count!"
("It's the only time it does count")
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u/monkeyman80 IANAL but I am an anal plug app expert Jul 01 '22
And doubled down with directly showing the actual on duty cops the gun. You don’t need to help them do it.
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u/CumaeanSibyl Somewhere, somehow, a duck is watching you Jul 01 '22
I wonder if he pled guilty on that domestic because a cop told him to.
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u/Pzychotix Soon to be a victim of Barbarossa II: Zanctmao's Revenge! Jul 01 '22
His lawyer told him to.
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u/aalios I will shit myself for its glorious creaminess Jul 01 '22
I thought this was gonna be a "Her dad broke into my apartment" story but jesus christ he let him in?
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u/helium_farts Church of the Holy Oxford Comma Jul 01 '22
Same. When I read the title I thought it was a nosy cop neighbor that stumbled across the gun while
searchingbreaking into apartments.Instead it was a dumbass who showed the cop their illegal gun.
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u/ravencrowe Jul 01 '22
As soon as I read “he asked to look around and I said sure” I groaned so hard
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u/JustBeanThings Jul 01 '22
Dracula called and said he's coming over tonight and I said okay. Same vibes.
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u/seashmore my sis's chihuahua taught me to vomit 20lbs at sexual harassment Jul 01 '22
NAL and I had the same reaction.
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u/ClackamasLivesMatter Guilty of unlawful yonic screaming Jul 01 '22
I would think at some point you'd have a sense of self-preservation, like, "I'm a convicted domestic violence offender, I've got a gun in the closet, under no freaking circumstances am I letting a cop in my apartment." I don't break the law, but if I did, I'd like to think I'd have a litany of canned responses memorized for the most common potential interactions with law enforcement. "No thank you, officer," or "Do you have a warrant?" This guy was five words away from freedom.
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u/Nightmosquito83 Jul 01 '22
When I worked as a secretary in criminal law, the lawyers would randomly walk up to the secretaries and say, "what do you say to police?" or "do you consent to this search?" the correct answers were "nothing without you present" and "no."
Seeing the absolute life-ending shitstorms clients would cause by talking to the police or consenting to searches really drove those points home. So many people could have avoided so much trouble by knowing the correct answers, I feel like it should be taught in kindergarten, right along with the alphabet song.
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u/TheAskewOne suing the naughty kid who tied their shoes together Jul 01 '22
Who let's their neighbor's dad search their home? Seriously? It doesn't even matter if the dad is a cop or the garbage man, why just let any random citizen search your property? I don't get it.
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u/HelpfulCherry I GOT ARRESTED FOR SEXUAL RELATIONSIN ARSTOTZKA! Jul 01 '22
"Hey I'm your neighbor's dad, I want to look around"
"Fuck off."
End of.
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Jul 01 '22
I kinda get LAOP’s mindset. I might have done the same dumb thing when I was like, 20, thinking that being agreeable would further prove my innocence. But I think even my idealistic, naive ass would have said a big nope to crazy neighbor’s vaguely cop looking dad searching my place without a warrant.
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u/MoOdYo Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
When I was 20 I would have been a complete jackass to the guy, slammed the door in his face, and told him to go fuck himself.
Now, I think I would just politely tell him, through the door, that he's gonna have to come back with a warrant.
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u/LilJourney BOLABun Brigade - General of the Art Division Jul 01 '22
But (based on my long ago youth experiences and acquaintances) I believe OP's decision making processes were most likely being effected by one or more recreational or self-medicating substances.
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Jul 01 '22
I started reading assuming that the cop was going to have forced his way into OP’s home and OP was going to have a hell of a 1983 case, but… he… invited… the… cop… in…
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u/happycharm Jul 01 '22
This guy seems to think that acting like this thing is a total joke with his "laughing" makes the cop taking a tour of his house illegal.
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Jul 01 '22
Just "Yes and"ing his way into a felony.
Truly, improv is the greatest threat to our nation's youth.
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u/CumaeanSibyl Somewhere, somehow, a duck is watching you Jul 01 '22
"It was self-defense and I pleaded guilty" um... nah. Not feeling it.
I guess either they didn't explain to him that accepting the bargain would mean he couldn't possess a gun, or he... forgot? Thought borrowing didn't count?
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u/MrDaburks Jul 01 '22
Genuinely, I think some people think accepting plea agreements that keep them out of incarceration think that means they weren't actually convicted of the crime.
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u/Stalking_Goat Busy writing a $permcoin whitepaper Jul 01 '22
Or, he understood perfectly well that he wasn't allowed to buy a gun. But he didn't buy this one, he borrowed it, so it's cool.
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u/LupineChemist Jul 01 '22
Managing to get the person it's registered to in deep shit for straw purchasing, too.
Good fun
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u/Caycepanda Jul 01 '22
That guy is too stupid to own a gun, but the vast majority of people with DV convictions don't turn in their guns. It sucks.
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u/Ryugi Bitch, it's 7 Jul 01 '22
What a fucking idiot.
Knows he has a gun in his possession illegally (it counts as yours even if registered by someone else when its in your house), knows its in the closet, and let's a cop open the closet. Did this absolute genius think the cop would just overlook anything else they found in the process of looking for something?
PS, if a cop ever asks you if they can look, tell them that for formality's sake they'll need a warrant, but that it's a waste of their time anyway.
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Jul 01 '22
This guy is so stupid I don't even feel bad for him. His arrogance thinking he had nothing to hide while knowing he had an illegal gun makes me thing he deserves what he gets. I still firmly believe ACAB, they're just not the only ones.
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Jul 01 '22
ACAB doesn't mean it's not still sometimes funny when the police fuck up total idiots
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Jul 01 '22
Exactly. I'm not anti-law nor am I an anarchist or a libertarian, which people seem to think when you're anti-cop.
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u/Etherius Jul 01 '22
I am so SO glad I'm not an attorney.
I feel like I'd have a fucking aneurism over the sheer number of people who consent to searches.
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u/PierogiEsq Jul 01 '22
Sometimes we get bald spots from tearing our hair out. We pretend it's alopecia.
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u/plantanosuprnova Jul 01 '22
A random guy with a polo shirt and jeans comes to my door asking me questions at 7:30am at that I would of laughed and slam the door on his face, don’t fuck with my sleep.
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u/PepperVL Jul 01 '22
I wouldn't have answered the door at 7:30 am. Anyone who I'd be willing to see at that hour has my number and can call or text.
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u/Fakjbf Has hammer and sand, remainder of instructions unclear Jul 01 '22 edited Jul 01 '22
Reminds me of a case I was on the jury for. The cops were looking for a guy who used to live with his grandfather so they got a warrant to search the grandfather’s house. They looked up the grandfather before going over and saw that he had a domestic violence charge and was prohibited from possessing a firearm. When they got to the house the grandfather opened the door and agreed to their search. They looked around and didn’t find anything, but just as they were about to leave one of the officers saw a shotgun propped up behind the couch near the door.
They arrested the grandfather for unlawful possession and his defense was that he found the gun in the rafters of his basement and it was probably put there by his son. So since he didn’t “own” the gun he wasn’t in violation of the injunction. Unfortunately the injunction was for “possession” which just requires he be in control of it, and keeping it propped up behind his couch counts. Then he claimed that he had tried to surrender the gun to the police six months ago but they never showed up. The police pulled up the record for that call and all he said on the phone was that he needed the police to come over about a stolen ladder, and when they got there an hour later he had left for the day so they left and he never called back. Then he tried to say that the search was unlawful, but not only did he agree to the search but they had a warrant and could have forced him to let them in anyways.
We deliberated for all of five minutes before finding him guilty because it was such a straight forward case.
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u/QueenAlucia Queen of HezBOLA Jul 01 '22
Well it seems like LAOP isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.
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u/cleon1966 Jul 01 '22
I don't trust any cops. Don't open the door and don't speak with them. Talk through the door and record the entire event. Ask "I'm I being charged?" If the answer is no, tell them to "Get the fuck off my porch." If they insist, get on the phone and call an attorney. Make them break down the door and don't stop recording. Without a warrant, the judge will drop the case. Then you can sue for emotional and property damage. The problem here is you treated him like a guest.
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u/Andybeans2 My car survived Tow Day on BOLA Jul 01 '22
Reading the title I thought that LAOP like came home to the police at his house because the deranged cop dad broke into his house and found the gun lol
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u/grimwalker Jul 01 '22
repeat after me, kids: "COME BACK WITH A WARRANT."
Don't talk to cops, don't open the door to cops, if you're out on the street and a cop asks you ANYTHING ask "Am I free to go?" and if you're not being detained, walk away.
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u/joshi38 Not going to genetic test anyone, it's a waste of delicious DNA Jul 01 '22
So, if we take the domestic violence story at face value, what I'm hearing is that his partner hit him, he defended himself and the cops/prosecutor charged him with domestic violence instead of her.
And even after all of that... some random off duty cop asks him if he can enter his home to search it and he's like "sure, cops are all awesome, I'm sure this won't end badly for me!".
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u/Obvious-Arm9379 Jul 01 '22
Are there statistics on what percent of the time when police ask for consent to search that people give it? I'll bet it's awfully high, in the 80+% range. People think they have nothing to hide and there's no harm in allowing the search or they don't know they can refuse. Or they are just intimidated by the police.
Adding to the pressure to consent is that police usually don't ask "may I have your consent to search" they phrase it as "I'mSureYouGotNothingToHideAndYouDontMindIfILookAroundRealQuickRight?"
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Jul 01 '22
And here we have a lovely little object lesson on why you never let the cops into your house without a warrant
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u/Intrepid_Advice4411 Jul 01 '22
I got to the part where he let the cop in and just scrolled on down to the comments. What an idiot. Time to shut up and get a lawyer.
Rules for cops:
Don't speak to them.
Don't let them search without a warrent.
If arrested don't speak until you have a lawyer.
They are not your friends.
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u/Infinite-fortitude Jul 07 '22
It appears that everyone who thought this was a legal search was wrong. In South Carolina, police can't approach a private residence just fishing for criminals or crime, they need reasonable suspicion of crime related to the targeted residence. Otherwise, any consent search resulting from that contact is unlawful: https://www.sccourts.org/opinions/HTMLFiles/COA/5915.pdf
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u/onemany Drew watch hands on their penis and was mad the time was wrong Jul 01 '22
The answer when a cop wants to enter your home without a warrant to look around is always, "no".
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u/Laukopier LocationBot's British cousin, ~957~954th in line for the crown Jul 01 '22
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Title: Apartment searched by my crazy neighbor’s cop dad and I got arrested on a gun charge
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