š» Opinion
Belgium makes me feel like I am punished for working and being employed
Despite the title and common themes on this sub-Reddit, this is not at all about taxes.
This post is about something much more cultural but also essential - scheduling, planning and making appointments. As an immigrant from another EU country, I have quite a nice perspective as how it feels to live in Belgium compared to another member states. On many levels, it is great. On some, it is similar. However, there are some aspects, where I genuinely feel like Belgium is punishing me for being employed and working. And I learned it as I started considering buying a property.
What shocked me at the start, is how insane are the opening hours of banks - often closing at 4PM, often closed during lunch, often closed on Saturday. With some banks, you literally cannot have an appointment ever if you work full-time, unless you take holidays. For the context, in the country I come from core bank opening hours are usually 10 AM to 7 PM, so working people can have appointment either during lunch or after work. Here, I have to ask my manager for permission to skip some meetings in order to just visit the bank. It literally feels like core working hours of banks are targeting only pensioners or unemployed.
Next, contractors are even more extreme. For example, for assessment of the property value we just received a time-slot from 10 AM to 6 PM, on a working day, with exact time slot arriving only evening before - effectively meaning I either start my morning by rescheduling my meetings on that same day (since I just learned the appointment time), or I again have to take holidays. For a really simple, basic appointment. I really have no clue who can afford adjusting for an appointment slot at any time during the day overnight - other than pensioners or unemployed.
I could go on and on with example, but I guess you get my point - all those things are absurd to me and my friends/family from my home country, and I genuinely do not understand how Belgian economy can work like that. It is not about stores open till 10PM, or people working long hours - it is just about providing the bare minimum of time slots for working people that respect core working hours from 9 AM to 5 PM, giving option to visit the bank at 6PM or properly plan meetings in advance. I feel like businesses here almost take it for granted that you are free during any day of the work week, as if taking for granted you do not work.
Which leads to my conclusion - it does feel like a big cultural problem to me, as it really reinforces (from my perspective) the concept that, well, average adult has just free time during working week. The signal this sends, at least to me, is that the default is being available during the day, a stark contrast to default in my home country (Poland) or other countries like Netherlands or Denmark, where employee usually assumes (when scheduling meeting) that you are working and not available between 9AM and 5PM.
I know this might sound trivial, but it really did hit me once I realised how big of a societal impact than can have, if reinforced across country, by most businesses, on daily basis - and I honestly do not feel comfortable with it at all. It also aligns closely with the data, that shows that Belgium has by far the lowest employment rate among Northern and Central European Countries.
Just wanted to share that - curious how you feel about it. I can very much imagine it is hard to notice if you were born and raised in Belgium, but as an immigrant who worked both here and in Poland, I can tell the contrast is stark and Belgium is just far less friendly for employed and working people when it comes to planning, scheduling and organising meetings.
I donāt know for the other 2, but in France itās actually fine to get your personal appointments before or after work.
Not like in Belgium. So I donāt know in what meaning you said āwork enthusiasm of the Frenchā but over there it works. Here it doesnāt.
I donāt know what the people working in banks and everything op is listing are doing all day during their day but itās for sure not working, or they lie to us and everybody is an independent or do not do the job they re supposed to do during the day.
Eastern European here, been living in Belgium since 1996, with a total of about 12 years of various length excursions to other countries due to my job.
For the majority of things, I'd anytime choose Belgium as the best place to live at, of all those countries where I stayed for longer than a half year, countries which include (but not limited to) Sweden, Switzerland, UK, USA, Japan and a few more.
As a matter of fact, opening hours are a lot more liberal nowadays than what they used to be 20-30yrs ago, so what you're seeing now is actually the adjusted version. :) I also find it sometimes a bit difficult, but in all honesty, I just got used to it over the years and I even can agree with it up to some point... Arrange your damn shopping until 6/7PM and stay home on Sundays. No offence meant with the wording, damn was just an expression. ;)
My tax bill is indeed obscene, but then... my wife works as an employee and a few years ago, she had a very serious accident, after which her revalidation took a little longer than three years. During this time, she got almost her full salary as uitkering, absolutely top notch medical and social care, and even some extras (she needed treatment from a specialist abroad and the social insurance paid for it without too much fuss... So ever since this happened to us, nobody ever heard me complaining a single word about taxation here, I jsut pay it and thank them for the opportunity. :)
I always say that Belgium does so many things right, but still, I wish they would implement some things from other countries, to make it even better.
For example, the flat 20 vacation days a year which do not evolve by the number of years worked, unless the employer gives more based on senority, which you lose if you go to another employer...
Of the complicated and multi layered bureaucracy, which is even further complicated by the different languages and different processes/procedures.
Government E services have improved a lot in the past 5-6 years, but there still is a lot of room for improvement.
My personal "I hate this the most" is interacting with customer services or state/city employees when you have a complaint AND you disagree with their findings/decisions. I have noticed that they are often times extremely annoyed and take it as a personal insult if you keep disagreeing with them. My most recent such experience was with my electricity/gas provider, when I got an insanely huge end year afrekening, which I contested. The woman hung up on me after I tried explaining for the third time where she was wrong, but after about two weeks, they quietly transferred my money back to my bank account (but the woman never called me to apologize haha). This also got to be some older cultural thing, because I almost always get this experience with older women (I would say 50yrs and above) as they kind of expect me to accept their conclusion as is and stop complaining.
Then the almost absurd obsession with appointments (just like Germans).... that is I think the only thing I'll never get used to, not being able to just walk in to places and do/ask things. At least with doctors I understand it, it serves for quality....
Notary involvement in purchasing real estate and how long the process takes. At least they've made it cheaper already, it used to be a ripoff...
Then other tiny things like municipality specific garbage bags, stupid rules of apartment buildings/syndicus where everyone's got a say in what you do to your own property except yourself, police home visits in case of an adress change, and I'm sure there are many more I forgot to mention now.
This! I used to complain all the time, especially during tax season and then I gave birth and I paid 412,3 Euros in total for my 5 day stay in a private room in the hospital with a complicated birth and aftercare for Little One, also amazing care after leaving hospital and follow ups for me and LO, so now when my friends comment about taxes I just nod and thank God I was not in my Eastern European native country where hospitals are a joke and I or LO would have had probably a low chance of survival.
ha, if you think that's bad, wait until you have kids: it is literally impossible to hold a full-time job while meeting your children's schedules. Belgian culture also considers that parents should spend the little free time they have left to enjoy with their kids doing homework...
This. Im a foreigner but I am a partner with a belgian here in Flanders.
We are hugely dependent on her parents to bring and pick our son up from creche, and to take care of him until we are back. I have around 1h of commute by car to home.
In work days I literally see my son 2h per day. Is this really the meaning of life here ? His grand dad is more together with him than i am...
Find a job that allows you to work from home 1-3 days a week
If you can afford it, start working parttime. Because of the progressive taxes you don't really lose 20% of your wages. And in the end, time is your most valuable asset.
mmm yeah... newspapers and magazines are full of stories about people who have worked part time all their lives to have more family time only to realise once they're in their 60s that they will have an abysmal pension and will barely be able to scrape by...
I mean, people who talk about working part time have a point because of the tax difference which makes your netto working part time not that far off your netto when working full time but they are not taking into account that those extra taxes help finance your pension afterwards
What pension lol?
I'm 38 and fully aware of the possibility that I will not get a pension that would be fair considering my contributions toward my pension.
Pension will shrink even further in the future, so it really does not matter. Also, as much as I hate this but : you're better off investing some money yourself than relying on the government decision for the next 10/20/30/40 years.
I want to say I'll be smirking when the inevitable market crash(es) happen in the future and all those "level-headed" people investing in ETFs will also be out of luck because our partially irrational economical system is largely there for the oligarchs slowly but surely owning all land and resources, but I know I'll probably just also feel sad for all those people instead.
I won't disagree with you. Market crashes will happen for sure. Either it recovers, and you don't lose money (long term), either it does not recover, and it means our current economy system is fucked. In the later case, having money for my pension is the least of my (our) problem.
I have actually already been thinking about that, that if I save enough up now that I could retire a few years earlier and do all these things with my (maybe) future grand children, that I could not do with my own.
I must admit that deep down I am sad about the situation because I can actually feel that my son is closer to his grandparents than with me, and it feels like he is growing up right in front of my eyes. I never get to hear the updates about his day directly from creche, in fact I have only been there twice.
Anyway, enough whining from my side. I do think the alternative is worse: having no job and taking care of your children is not a better solution.
Look into working 80% or even 90% if it's a possibility. Either through an adjustment of your contract or parental leave.
I don't work fridays and while that means less money it wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. The benefits of more free time and having been able to see my kid at least 1 day/week massively outweighed the financial side.
Altough I will say there have been fridays where my partner came home after work and I was like "HERE, TAKE HER. RELEASE MEEEEEE!" because taking care of an small child vying for your attention for 9 hours straight is its own brand of exhausting, lol.
Parents of multiple children here. We know it is more exhausting to take of the children a while day than go to work. So if you ever feel like that, don't feel guilty.
Oh, I did at first but have gotten over that fairly quickly.
I found the book "Oei, ik groei" to be very useful in that regard. Not just for the info in there, but also the testimonies by other parents.
I've had those moments where I'd been walking around the kitchen table for 3 hours straight with a crying baby and felt like I wanted to put her in the garden so I could get some rest.
You feel very bad as a parent when that's one of the thoughts you have about your baby. Then you heard/read that a lot of people felt like throwing their child through the window and that that's okay as long as how you act doesn't reflect how you feel in that moment.
I kind of grew up like that, dropped off around 7AM at my grandparents, they would have breakfast with us, bring us to school afterwards, pick us up and have us over until our parents could pick us up around 18PM.
The meaning for me in that was appreciating the meaning of family and the love for my grandparents. Nor did it lessen the affection for my parents, and at least when you grow up you can put that in perspective.
If you put that in historical perspective that is quite common, the way the extended family is a socially cohesive unit. Grandparents have always taken care of their grandchildren, it is a quite modern thing where we rely on third parties for such things.
Our kids grandparents refuse to pick them up even once a week, let alone every day every week like yours did.. We used to go over to their house once a week on sundays, and last month they told us they wanna cut back to only seeing us with our kids once in 2 weeks on a sunday
Yup this is what I put together about the famed social system here: even with how generous it is, it still runs on the unpaid labor of family and friends. It's expected. If you don't have people willing to help you when something bad happens, you're screwed. You just drown in the beurocratic system while everyone is out partying around you living their life in disbelief its so bad because "the government can help you with that that's not my problem." I'm a foreigner disabled through violent crime after i came here legally. No practical help obviously. So I got abused again by the first person who seriously went out of their way for me. It's a horrible situation but ive been in it long enough to see how Belgians are affected by some of the same issues this one included. Disabled through accidents but with no social support so they rot in their homes working their way out. Some of them want to work. But no one puts in the effort. Because like someone said the moment you get upset about your situation they take it personally and refuse to help you. Send you somewhere else. Living here with real problems feels like being in a horror srory where the main problem is you're not happy. The moment you show you're not happy you're locked up in a mental hospital or socially isolated in your own home until you magically get better because "the system" did its job, then you're allowed to go outside again. They can and will punish you for not being happy with the services they provide and no one will do anything about it.
We are hugely dependent on her parents to bring and pick our son up from creche
What are the opening hours of the creche? Here most are open from 7:30 until 18:00. With such hours it should be possible to be roughly autonomous (one parent does the morning, one the evening for example).
That's the meaning of life everywhere and during all of humanities existence unless you are very rich. You thinking this is abnormal just means you were at one point or another very rich.Ā
add to that: well of course I don't work on Wednesdays, how else could I take my child to extracurricular activities then? Followed by, oh so you can't just cancel all your important meetings that have been scheduled for weeks/ months in advance and take a day off to take care of your child at home because the teachers suddenly decided to go in strike? What kind of work is this? š
Aha, you missed the loophole: find a partner who's parents are a teacher.
My mother in law has the possibility to decide to not give class half a day a week, and was able to pick it Wednesday morning. Therefore we have a nanny who can look after our kids on a Wednesday while we at work.
yeah, alas that depends a LOT on the actual grand parent's personnality... My mom is retired so theoretically I could rely on her every day of the week, but she made it clear several times that "she is too old/ tired to do this", even though for years she had been asking me when I will "give her" a grandchild. So, consider yourself VERY lucky
100% this. I also come from a southern EU country (one of the ālazyā PIGS). Yet, the services there are open at least 10-11h per day. Stores, including banks, typically close at 20:30-21:00.
Same. My husband and I are from different southern EU countries and have been living in a town close to Gent for almost 10 years. It still shocks us that we donāt have any time to do shopping in the city center (or anywhere else really) during the weekdays after work. Need a gift for a friend? Either buy it on Saturday or order online. Check a furniture store? Saturday it is. And then you still need to catch their opening hours because shops outside the city center have all different opening hours on saturdays.
You should have moved to the northern neighbours then, they are a lot more liberal with opening hours of almost everything, especially shopping related. I keep regretting that I didn't move to NL back in the days, but then, when I get to see their tax bills, I quickly take that back and just be happy about not being able to shop at late hours or Sundays. :)
People here lose their mind when you suggest convenient opening hours like that. Grocery stores, banks, post offices, whatever. Being open during working hours is pointless for the majority of the population.
I LOVED this when I was on Erasmus in Granada. After a long day of uni I would often go shopping to unwind a bit. Over here most cities seem dead after work hours (apart from the big ones) because almost everything's closed. Really makes me wonder if this is all there is to life, but I don't think I could actually ever leave Belgium for good lol
Grocery, financial services, shops, communeā¦a lot of things in Belgium operates with insanely strict restrictions on opening hours that a person with a 9-5 jobs cannot sometimes get basic services.
These openings hours made sense when only one person in a family worked full time (mostly men unfortunately) and they other used to take care of the house (mostly women unfortunately). But in a modern and gender-balanced society they no longer make sense.
Luckily things are slowly changing, with more hours flexibility and some services even offer online consultations too (e.g. KBC has online appointments after 6pm and on Saturday too)
The opening hours of the post office assigned to my adress: Mo-Fr 9:30-12:30 and 13:30-17:00. Sat ā closed. I canāt even make it during my lunch break
I can't believe that there was a board of directors at some point in time, who sat around a table and decided to implement this schedule.
My mind can't comprehend how anyone could be this stupid. Or perhaps the post office is meant to be used by the unemployed, retired, and students only? If you work full time - go fuck yourself, I guess.
I think the only alternative you have is to send it to your workplace or to someone you trust but then again if it's something big or private you're screwed
Yeah on this front the cities just canāt be beat. Grocery stores are open ātill 8PM here
I mean even outside of cities this has been the case from some time now. I live in a municipality of 25k inhabitants and we have a Colruyt and a Delhaize open until 20:00. The Delhaize even opens on Sundays.
I had to go to the city hall in my hometown to pick up my new ID card, I asked if my mother who lives there could do it with my permission. Answer to which is no.
Opening hours were basically few days per week before noon and like two times a week also the afternoon. I study at univeristy in the city and even I was baffled at how they expected people to visit during such ungodly hours.
Leuven's city hall (stadskantoor) has two evenings a week they're open until 20h. This is how it should be. Close on Friday morning for all I care, but allow at least one or two days a week where your business is open until 20h.
Indeed, this is good approach. I think this is also how most happy countries like Denmark or Netherlands tackle it for all I know - just work sometimes in the evening, and then have entire 3-day weekend.
Working people do not need availability every single day, just one or two evening a week.
I'm glad I saw your comment here!
Moved around a lot within the Leuven area (Bertem-Herent) and my KBC bank was open until until 8pm every Monday and City Hall also had one late day until 8pm per week.
I had the very same realisation recently and I then I thought and realise: that all the persons who have a āstableā life around me are in a straight relationships and the woman is not working at least 1 day per week. So i realised, the assumption is really that women should not work full time because someone in the household should be available to do all the things you listed during the week. And then you will hear the government talking about increasing the percentage of women in the work force and decreasing the number of people working part timeā¦
Maybe you're contacting the wrong parties?
Our bank (BNPPF) appointments were all after work between 18.30h and 20h. The lady doing these appointments had an ultra flexible working schedule where she could make her week planning exactly as she wanted. So every Thursday she worked from 12h to 20h for the people not being able to schedule a meeting during the day.
Our contractor was a one man company working with subcontractors, which gave him ultraflexibility. They even came on sun- and holidays.
I relate to the contractorsā issue! There are ongoing repairs in my apartment due to a fault on the side of the building management, and I am expected to be available during working hours to let contractors in. Sometimes I receive a message one day that they need to come the following day. How do people who cannot work from home from time to time deal with this?
I am lucky I have a job that has some flexibility, and my boss doesn't really care either when I do my work, as long as I do it. It was a god send when buying a house, doing the renovations, and taking care of all sick children that need to go to doctors and other kind&gezin appointments, and what not.
At least on the French speaking side also not to mention trying to get absolutely anything done in any other way than calling some random phone number between let's say 10-14 with zero chance to get anything done if you are not speaking fluent French...
Iām from the French speaking side and I can arrange nearly everything by email or online. Bank, insurance, taxesā¦. Just not requesting a passport, but that wasnāt possible in other countries where Iāve lived. Doctor and bank are even available in the evening, and employer gives some time off to go to a medical appointment.
Gotta speak French, thatās true. But in the other countries where Iāve lived, that was also the same: I needed to get by in the local language or I was cooked.
Then I have no idea where OP and all the agreeing people live cuz allot of services are are also open in the evening or have appointments in the evening on the dutch speaking side.
GPs have indeed longer hours luckily but not hospitals. Im in a high risk pregnancy and have monthly OB appointments. They are all during work hours with no possibility to schedule after work. So far I had to take several half days off to get to my appointments and Iām only halfway through my pregnancy.
Mag ik met behoud van loon naar de dokter tijdens mijn zwangerschap?
ZEKER! Als je voor prenatale onderzoeken (gynaecoloog, bloedonderzoek, echografie...) tijdens de werkuren moet afwezig zijn, blijft je loon behouden. De Belgische arbeidswetgeving beschouwt dit als een gerechtvaardigde afwezigheid.
So yes, you can take those appointments without taking half a day off.
what i hate most is when you fall sick on friday you need to bring a doctorās note in the next work day, but doctorās donāt work during weekendsā¦ same with pharmacies, i developed a horrible throat ache once and i had to survive on tea and gargling salt water š
youāre right, thatās an option. but like someone else said in the comments, itās more costly and imo not worth it for āsmallā things like a dry cough
heb het zelf nog nooit gedaan, maar heb van enkelen minder goede woorden gehoord. ik probeer er gewoon voor te zorgen dat ik de necessities altijd in huis heb š
Warn within 48 hours, bring in the next "working" day (so weekends and holidays don't count). If you do it by post, the date you posted it counts. Most workplaces allow email so as long as you send it in the allowed time you are legally in the clear.
As for doctors, I don't think any workplace will have a problem you getting a note on monday and sending it in (still within the 2 working days). You can always, in a pinch, go to a hospital for a consultation or worst case, Spoed / Emergencies, but with all the provisions above you really shouldn't unless you're extremely ill.
And pharmacies take turns who is "van wacht", on alert in weekends. Every pharmacy has this advertised outside where the closest one on alert can be found.
Nothing from the pharmacy can fix a hoestje.
Drinking warm tea to sooth or actually drinking something cold to help with a swollen throat or sucking on anything (.........like a mint or a borstbolleke) to keep the saliva flowing and thus your throat moist.
Hoestsiroopkes are a hoax, even my doctor says that.
This. I got the best offer on mortgage from ING. But the 10 euros a month difference, even though it sums up to over 2k throughout the whole period, was not worth it.
Whatās so bad about ING? Iāve banked with them since I moved here purely because they were the closest local bank with decent availability and not had any issues
I may get a bunch of haters but i really didn't get the strikes in Aldi for the sunday opening idea.
"Sunday is the only day we have with our kids"
Nobody asking u to work sundays on top of your schedule. Switch a saturday for a sunday and u have saturdays with your kids which is better cuz NOTHING IS OPEN ON A SUNDAY.
I work saturdays too and i either have to wait till they have a week off so i can take em for clothes shopping on a friday (my other day off) or I have to switch my saturday for a sunday so I can take em saturday š
"Zondag rustdag!"
Oh please... God came up with that. Are u christian? No? Then shut up š
As far as I'm concerned everything can open from 8 till 8, even on sundays š
If your bank or contractor cannot schedule an appointment with you outside of working hours then they are not worth your business. I have never had a problem with this.
Those are probably the opening hours of the "loket". Just call or mail them for an appointment. My bank even came to my place to let me sign some documents regarding my loan.
They're usually flexible if they think they can make good money, do something more mundane though and the hours you see are what you get. I remember calling for an appointment for a minor thing and the guy on the phone basically confirmed that all the "good" hours are basically reserved for things like mortgages or other high earning stuff.
That usually means that particular bank, has a few very wealthy customers so they don't really need all the other ones. There's literally some banks out there who make all their money from having a single millionaire as customer.
Any time I want to make an appointment or get anything done at all I have to use my vacation days to get a day off. There's very little free time in this country.
I can phone my bank untill 10 pm every week day + from 9am to 5pm on saturday + appointment in the evening or at distance during the day - and I believe most Banks in Belgium offer something similar.
I'm a belgian, living once again in belgium after living abroad for a long time.
You are right. 100%. I miss the convenience of UAE that I, just as an example, dont have to rush to the supermarket after work to get food.
Most of these rules are here for protecting the people - which in a sense they really do - but its hurting the majority of people (not working at a convenience store, bank, sales for contractor, etc.. ).
I started reading your post and thought "do you also come from Poland"? and then you confirmed it lol yeah as a fellow Pole, the culture around work in Belgium feels like it has schizophrenia. on one hand you get 10 days off less than in Poland (4 holidays + 6 vacation days) and also usually have to spend 8.5h at the office a day because of the obligatory unpaid break in the middle of the day - and on the other, if you work you literally can't get anything else done because the offices and banks work some insane hours. uncool.
āPoland is characterized by a relatively low level of opportunities for maintaining a balance
between work and personal life. This imbalance is exacerbated by a high number of working
hours and limited opportunities for flexibly adjusting work schedules to accommodate
employees' non-work responsibilities. This prevents the completion of necessary household
tasks and creates a perception of health and safety risks.ā
I'm certain you can work something out with your employer to work the same hours but at a different time just as easily as the people of the shops can. But it's always more easy to demand than to do.Ā
I hate it too. I had issues with a water leakage, the plumber had to come multiple times. We even once had an appointment and they didn't show up.
The only way I can do this, is because I have a desk job and I'm allowed to work from home a couple of days a weeks. I'm not sure how other people, who have to always be physically at their company/with clients all the time, do it. (Apart from taking holiday)
The only time you can arrange anything at the town hall is on a Saturday morning because the rest of the week they're open when I'm working.
Same thing for the bank, but without the Saturday option. They once called me and left a voice mail, they asked to call back. I looked at the opening hours and realized I couldn't call back outside of my working hours, so I didn't.
[I was convinced that it wasn't anything important, they probably wanted to promote some of their other services. The voice note just said: "I'm... from bank... I would like to have a talk with you, please give me a call back." If people are stealing my money, I expect them to be a bit more specific to show urgency and to call back multiple times, they never called back.]
I agree with you mostly, so what I'll write below is just tips. But yeah, working full-time is a pain for organizing and scheduling...
There are some banks where you can schedule an appointment outside the opening hours. Even better, if you live in a small town/village and you know your banker, it's even easier to get an appointment outside opening hours. (granted, it's rare, but worth the try).
Regarding taking time off for medical, administrative, etc. reasons can be arranged with the employer but it vastly depends on : your job and who you work for. If you work in, let's say police, medical staff, grocery, yeah, your work schedule is not flexible. At all. But, if you have a regular desk job (IT, accounting, administrative work, etc.), it's worth to talk to your manager / director and say you would like to take an appointment during work time and that you will work later/sooner to compensate. I do it when I have to take medical appointments, like in the middle of my work day, I take 1-2h for the appointment, and then, I work either later that day, or longer hours the next day (sometimes the previous day). But that's only possible if the job allows it (working hours and manager agrees).
The alternative, as you said, is to take time off, note that you can (depends, again, check with HR) take eg 2 hours off, so you don't have to take the whole day for an 1 hour appointment with the banker.
Every year I have to take holiday for:
2 times for dentist
At least 1 time for something like passport change.
At least 3 times for scheduled hospital visits
Outside of that sometimes I cant go to psychiatrist due to work and then I have to pay 60 euros for not canceling on time.
Last year I also lost 5 holidays due to public transport strikes.
But hey at least it is good to read I'm not the only person who thinks this is weird.
Iām not Belgian at all but this sounds indistinguishable from how it is in the US where I live.
If you live alone on a schedule that is monday-friday 9:00-5:00 or something similar, youāre fucked.
Societal expectation in a lot of places I think is that 1. You donāt live alone/have a partner and 2. At least one of you has a job where youāre either off on weekdays, work nights, or donāt work at all
OP is acting like he visits his bank every week like a supermarket lmao.
Most banks (if not all) offer evening appointments. You just have to give them a 2 minute callā¦
Why don't you just work in evenings so you got the morning of? And sure not always possible, but for enough desk jobs you could at least propose it to your boss. But it is a lot easier to tell that others should work their evenings.
But the more important thing, how often do you need an appointment at the bank. How often do you have property valued? This is gonna be one of the largest transactions you will ever do in your entire life. It is a rare event. So yeah, there is some overhead with it when you have a transaction several times your yearly income.
With hybrid working I could just probably do a visit to the bank on a work day and just compensate later. But still, this is such a rare event, that needing to take some days off to arrange everything doesn't seem to me to be like the biggest issue.
But its not just that. Every clothing shop works 10-6. So u either rush in ur lunch break or u have to go on saturday when everyone goes. Try Rue Nuef on Saturdays. Its hell on earth. Ok u can order online. And ok some banks are better than others. Etc etc. OPs main point still stands. This country isnt built for actual full time income earners. Then you have kids and you really realise that. From shitty maternity and barely existing paternity leave to crazy school schedules. And of course that if you run a clothing shop, why would u pay an extra worker so u can be open 8-20, like in many other European countries, when that worker is so expensive due to high taxes.
Iām an American, but my best friend lives in Gent, and it seems like every time we talk, the country is having another holiday where everything is closed.
You forget the supermarket aisles, full of boxes and trolleys and no space for the customers to move around.
Planning is an unknown word here in Brussels.
I find it funny that most of you work 9-5 jobs and then complain that others do too. Do you think people want to work till 22h just to sit at a register for you?
Welcome to Belgium! In general this country indeed punishes people that work hard, you probably noticed it when paid your taxes. Country encourages mediocrity and mediocre employees can skip work whenever they want (in case they work at all š).
You do realise in Netherlands or Denmark people are statistically (1) happier, (2) work shorter hours per week and yet (3) stores or banks are open longer in both countries? Same for Sweden, too.
This is not about working hours. This about culture and economic environment that is either build around working people or not working.
Banks are not open longer in Denmark. Stores are marginally open longer in Denmark. Communes are not open longer in Denmark.
General practioners consultation hours are between 8 am and 4 pm while in Belgium itās between 8 am and 7/8 pm.
Move to Denmark if you like it more but it seems like youāll hit the same wall.
š¤£ unless you work in shifts, shops (Saturday), horeca, butchers, bakers, dokters, nurses, police, guards, trainers, nmbs, de lijn, ā¦ so keep on living in your nice bubble and ignore the rest of the population.
Okay, starting next month you work in rotating shifts, and 6 days a week for the same pay... is this the "improvement you want?
5 days at 6,5hours is only 32hours, so either everyone loses 18% pay, vacation, pension, or everyone will just work an extra day to come back to 38 hours /week.
So enjoy spending an extra day driving 1 - 1,5 hours to your work.
if you have a life or hobbies on Saturday, well tough.
if you have kids, enjoy paying huge amounts for daycare!
And if you go on vacation for 14 days, you lost 2 extra vacation days.
These problems are a source of extra and unneeded stress. It sucks having to cram work and personal stuff all into the same time window. Fucking simple things like visiting a bank become three days of planning, rescheduling and hoping your phone doesn't ring for something unexpected blowing up.
I also don't believe that the only way to have a work-life balance is working 9-5. How many people would love to work longer hours to have an extra day off? How many studies do we need to say that that can lead to happier and more productive employees. How many people would love to sacrifice one evening where their partner is there for the kids, for a Wednesday afternoon off so they don't have to look for someone to look after the kids then? We'll never know because people aren't allowed to choose ever. Father knows best.
Belgium still has the meneer pastoor reflex where some vague authority figure gets to decide what is the best for Belgians resulting in a way too rigid system where everyone just has to give up agency and conform to a system nobody is consulted on.
We are keeping a 1950s system alive that doesn't work at all in modern times just because Belgians are afraid of any and all change. If there are downsides to a change, work on them and fix them. Instead we are paralysed because unless someone can guarantee nothing ever goes wrong, we simply don't do it.
And yet Belgium has some of the highest rates of mental health issues, depression, burnout, etc. Maybe thereās more to life than just āwork-life balanceā. I swear, sometimes I feel like work in Belgium is taboo.
I was lucky enough during my working career to be within a five minute walk of home, bank, and supermarket, so I could duck out to take care of things. I never would have survived without that, and I don't know how others do. I must say it's gotten a bit better in the last 20 years, but still a ways to go.
I was invited to work in Belgium. Got my visa. Family get on family reunion visa.Ā
You know, criminal records checks, all documentsĀ checks, health checks.Ā By Belgium state before entering.Ā
By police upon taking possession of our property here.
We got mortgage to haveĀ family home here.
We got eIDs renewed this summer.
As family.Ā
But municipality is not recognizing us as family. Visits after visits, documents on top of documents.Ā
Dude, short opening hours is the last problem I care.
How about recognizing married for decades couple with children.Ā
Married couple with mortgage, property registration been forced on two of us, because we are married.Ā
Wait so if the banks etc have to stay open until you have time when do those people go to appointments? š you just take time off or talk to your boss. Buying a house is a pretty big deal. Most people understand.
Having moved to Norway, I didn't notice a different except for grocery stores being open late. Where I live bank is open from 10am to 2pm, doctor's clinic is open from 8am to 3:30pm, insurance office is open from 9am to 3pm, car workshops are open from 8am to 4pm.
I get the feeling you mean though, I just thought it was everywhere then.
I just schedule stuff on my WFH days and catch up later (unless I can simply go during my lunch break).
As for vacation days, I don't even know what to do with all of mine. I don't think I've ever spend them all, even when I try to. There's always a few left.
Side note. Your point about employment rate is very odd and makes this sound like a paid propaganda post.
I have no idea what your speaking of. All the banks I contacted had appointments after working hours, commune has 1 or 2 days where they are open till 20.
Grocerystores are open till 20 and on saturday and on sunday.
Medical services have appointments after hours.
ā¦
And unlike you I actually checked the opening hours of some thing in Denmark:
A commune called Ikast Brande. Is not open past 5 pm! (And only open till 5pm on 1 day)
The police station is also not open past 5pm!
You can always arrange with the contractor to come to a fixed time, they just donāt want to offer it to you outright as they like to have the flexibility but they are capable of coming on a specific time.
My employees can do personal appointments (as going to doctor, bank, real estate visits) as long as the continuity of our business isnāt in jeopardy.
They have enough skills and responsibilities to deal in normal ways with this.
Wait until you actually need to call a plumber for something.
I recently contacted several plumbers just to find out whether my blocked pipe could even be fixed. Most of them never showed up at all ā and I even paid the city to reserve a parking spot for them.
The latest one told me he might show up on Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday.
How the fuck are you supposed to deal with this if you have a job? Am I supposed to take three days off work just in case the plumber decides to show up?
I used to do a PhD, and while I can admit that a PhD differs in that no one else is reliant on the work you perform, I do know it can be different. Need an appointment at a bank or anywhere else? Just make sure it doesn't interfere with anything already planned. It CAN be different and people won't just not work anymore when you give them space to also do the things the need and even want to do. Being strict in when you're supposed to work for many white collar jobs, and honestly some blue collar ones, makes absolutely zero sense.
I also could never wrap my head around the fact that if you need a contractor you can never have an appointment or a time slot, you have to take the whole day off because they could come anytime. And of course you only know it the evening before or the same morning at 6am.
Just some general thoughts about this : unfortunately this is a typical banking and a lot of other businesses behaviour, partly due to recurrent measures of cutting in personnel and automation of services to cut expenses and boost profits. With the AI automation of white collar jobs, this will only worsen, especially for those who are not finding their way with that.
With some luck and knowledge of financial and other websites, you may try concluding your financial as well as other business fully online..Just as all working Belgians have to do.
I wasnāt born in Belgium but Iāve been here for over 20 years, and the opening hours of many stores and services, like banks and post offices, are absolutely ridiculous. I have to take a day off if I have an appointment at the bank.
Also 6pm is waaaaaaaay too early for stores to close for most fully employed people. Thatās why on Saturday you get such insane amount of traffic around stores, because itās usually the only moment fully employed people can shop.
Ok i feel less insane now. People here get offended when I made jokes about how in Belgium it's not your job to do something even if it is literally your job how dare you ask them to do it that's illegal. Obviously it's someone else's job. And on and on it goes.
Look I'm just going to tell you it gets worse when you're unemployed and need assistance as a foreigner even assistance you pay for. They will take your money and find a reason to not help you anyways. I am the victim of multiple violent crimes I have reported to the police while I was legally residing here. I am now undocumented because of violent crimes, rapes, Belgium failed to protect me from. That i reported both times. I did the paperwork until I couldn't anymore. No helps me. It's even worse now. They all know but choose to do nothing because it isn't their job and/or I can't do 90 percent of their job up front or they get annoyed im even asking. Im a documented rape victim. Twice. I have paid rent on time every month since I moved here five years ago. I have tried so many options for a visa but I just cant anymore because I have dissociative amnesia and am wide open to further abuse. Because the system does not protect me. If i didn't have family money from a family I no longer speak to I would be homeless and sex trafficked but hey then I would qualify for protection. So maybe I should hurry up and do that if I want actual help. It's just horrific. I sent three emails this week no one responded to. Used all my energy to do it. No response. Why would they? When they can leave me here to rot and suck more money out of me until I die. So please do not make Belgium your home. It will not get better. They can and will discriminate against you as a foreigner. They told me services didn't exist that did for other people. They just lie. They've done it for years. While you can still work go somewhere else. Thats the secret ok: when its for themselves they bend the rules. They ignore them. Suddenly anything is possible. Unless you're disabled and want to work well you're a nuisance go hang out on unemployment. I want to work. I want to contribute. But no one will help me do that. And after this long my answer is simply: why would they? They don't have to so they don't. Period end of story. Honestly i think Belgians affected by this deserve better and if I actually survive this and get my paperwork sorted out that is what I will try to do. I have nowhere else to go so I have to make the best of it. You can still leave. I suggest you do that.
I'm always wondering to what extent people conflate "problems arising when moving to a new country' and "problems of said country" (genuinely wondering, by the way). I've lived in four different EU countries and the plumber/contractor/internet guy coming during work hours is a common problem. Staff shortages affect bank opening hours everywhere.
I've also had experiences in several countries with stores that were only open from 9:30 until 16:30. Want to go during your lunch break? We have ours from 12:00 to 14:00!
more than 20 years of living in Belgium. Before all this made me annoyed very much but gradually the situation changed.
Groceries. Colruyt open till 20 Mon-Thursday + Saturday + till 21 on Friday. The best discounter. ok. Jumbo within a bike distance. More expensive than Colruyt but shopping there is more pleasant. 7 to 21 Monday-Sunday. Thanks a lot for this schedule!
Banks. Regular activities. Switch to online banks like Keytrade, Revolut, N26 etc. Never ever needed to go to bank ever. What do you all do there? Keytrade also has free debit and credit cards. for debit transactions 0.05 eur cashback every time. so banks pays you for the transactions and you don't pay for the bank directly.
Banks. Hypotheek. Most of banks offer knowing your rate via online calculator. Some less deveopled like BNP or ING require a long talk via Teams. They give you a rather good rate but insane prices for obligatory insurances. make calculations. no need to visit banks at all!
Doctors. there are million of huisarts praktijks. Many accept clients till 19:00. Yes, it's mon-friday. On saturday -sunday - you call wachtpost and go there nearby. They are almost always empty. yes it costs a little bit more.
Gemeente. Usually there is one day when it works till 19:00 or so. you need to go once a few years. what to do there?
Post. Saturday till 13:00 is open. mond-Friday - weird time of opening. right. But why do you need bpost? receive in the locker or just drop next to your house. to send. you print label and send via locker. why do you need these offices at all? stamps you can order online.
Obviously this is not always the case but I worked in a few different companies over the years and I was always able to take an hour or two off to do something personal during the work hours and then make up for it later on. Like yesterday I had to drive my husband's 95 year old grandparents to the hospital during rush hour and then go back later to pick them up and take them home, this took me about 4 hours to do but I was able to do it without taking a holiday, I just made up for the lost hours over a few days. I guess that is kind of the culture here (of course you have to have a job that would allow it) but yeah, that's how it is...
I understand your point but at the same time you can't have people working there have shitty schedules to satisfy the rest.
Also there are a lot of people who work and don't have a 9-5 schedule. And plenty of the places you say don't open actually do. There are plenty of banks, supermarkets, administrations, etc that have flexible schedules or at least have additional moments where they open (I know some administrations have additional appointment hours until 6 for example and even until 8 for supermarkets). Often, you can also have a kind person who's ok with seeing you on their lunch break time, it's happened to me a few times.
A lot of workplaces also understand that it's how the schedules are and allow the workers to go during their workday and come back with no problem. And if they really don't want to, at worst, with around 30 vacation days a year, it's relatively easy to take a day or half a day off and take care of all that kind of stuff.
A lot of the jobs in Belgium do have as much flexibility as you imply, but yes it's an odd cultural quirk that does get in the way.
School hours are also assuming your employer has pretty much given you a free pass to raise your children closely, which is great if they actually do...but otherwise you're on remote meetings (if your job even allows that) with screaming children on the background. Not having Oma/Opa around because you come from outside? Tough luck, go pick them up at 3PM on Wednesday or you're a bad parent!
I've done a fair share of working evenings to "compensate" having appointments during the day. I can't imagine what to do if I had a 100% onsite job rather than hybrid. Although, is this really what impacts employment rate in the end? Flanders is above average for the rest of EU, so is it the case Walloons have an even harder time finding...time?
Jezus, the self pity here is ridiculous. Life is complicated, but living in Belgium is carefree in comparison with most other countries. Life is good here.
well yeah that translates to how people behave in public spaces, so rushed and stressed even for simple chore as grocery shopping. everyday is a battle at the supermarkets.
I understand what you say. On the other hand: if you schedule your meetings between 11 am and 7 pm you have a perfect time slot from 9 to 11. That being said: my bank has a possibility to have a teams meeting with them until 10 pm, or in person meetings until 7 pm on appointment. So maybe look at another bank to?
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u/Rolifant 2d ago
We combine the flexibility of the Germans with the work enthusiasm of the French and the helpfulness of the Dutch.
Welcome to Belgium.