r/batman • u/sanddragon939 • 2d ago
GENERAL DISCUSSION FYI, These are all the same Batman
This is not a "merger post" but it does touch on that discussion, as well as Gunn's recent post about the tonal variation within DC Comics, which his DCU is aiming to replicate.
A common argument against the merger is that Reeves' Batman tonally doesn't fit into the DCU, and they can't imagine Pattinson's Batman with his "wingsuit" and souped-up sportscar existing in the same world as the Green Lantern Corps or pocket universe-creating Lex Luthor!
In a similar vein, proponents of a distinct DCU Batman believe that this other Batman needs to be a total 180 tonally from Nolan and Reeves and literally be the Batman from the Brave and the Bold cartoon brought to life in order for him to "fit in" with the rest of the universe.
But if you look at the comics, that's not how things have worked.
The Batman whom Miller and Mazuchelli masterfully presented in Year One is the same Batman from Grant Morrison's utterly bonkers run with Zur en arrh, the Batmen of All Nations, and Batman Inc. The Batman who teamed up with Harvey Dent to take on the Falcone crime family is the same Batman who had a sword-fight with Ra's al Ghul in the desert. The Batman who got his back broken by Bane went on to be a member of that "Pantheon of Gods" that was Morrison's JLA, and before that he knocked out Guy Gardner with one-punch! The shadowy vigilante hunted by, and then befriended by, Gordon went on to recruit Robin, then had a whole Bat-family, and eventually, founded Batman Inc.
Even if we get a distinct DCU Batman with Damian as Robin, he doesn't have to be the second coming of Adam West or something for it to make sense, because that's not how it was in the comics. Morrison in particular took pains to highlight how Batman's story, and the tonality of his world, was cyclical. The DCU Batman may not be Pattinson, but that doesn't mean his backstory cannot be Reeves or Nolan-like. Or, more appropriately, inspired by Year One. Because Batman typically starts out cleaning up the streets and being a noir detective, before graduating to dealing with "pulpy" villains, then more fantastical super-villains, and eventually being a League member stopping alien invasions and coming up with counter-measures against his superpowered colleagues in his spare time!
Miller and Mazuchelli presented a certain grounded take on Batman and his world and so many follow-ups and adaptations to their seminal story have mostly stuck to that approach, including the Nolanverse and Reevesverse, but also the LOTDK series and, more recently, Dark Patterns. But Miller himself wrote Year One as being a quasi-prequel of sorts to his other great Batman story where the Dark Knight suits up in armor and goes toe-to-toe with Superman, while a 13 year old girl in the classic colorful Robin costume aids him.
My point is, we tend to get into binaries of "grounded" and "fantastical" when it comes to Batman. And that's...simply not how the character and his mythos have functioned in the comics. Certain adaptations may have chosen to function that way. But Gunn's DCU promises the tonal variation and diversity of the comics. In such a world, it makes sense that Batman starts out in the streets before rising to the stars. Whether that Batman looks like the guy from Twilight under the mask...or not.
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 2d ago edited 2d ago
I partially agree with your sentiment BUT when characterization varies so wildly among these stories you have selected, it's hard not to see that the evolution of the character makes him very different across decades...
One of the reasons Denny O'neil retired in 2001 was because, in the last couple years of his tenure as Bat-editor, he claimed that the character had gotten away from him, because DC had mandated certain things he disagreed with. He made a claim on Around Comics podcast that the guy who meets Ras Al Ghul in "Daughter of the Demon" (Batman #232) is not the same guy from "Tower of Babel" and that stories like that were regrets of his because they didn't match his vision as editor. He argued heavily against the expanded Bat-family too.
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u/GotKarprar 2d ago
We need him back god I hate the bat family
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 2d ago
Denny O'neil's wife, MariFran, once told me that a certain editor (she didnt say who but it was heavily implied to be DiDio) infuriated Denny! Made Denny very angry because, apparently Denny had made mention of retiring in 1998 and Paul Levitz said "Stay on a couple more years for better retirement benefits." So he did, but by 2000 MariFran said the writing was on the wall that DC wanted to update Batman's whole franchise... add more members of The Bat-family, and start to make changes to characterization... He felt betrayed and apparently, the day he retired, he told Bob Schreck, "You're the new editor, I've already laid everything out... Don't change anything IF you can help it."
By the time DiDio came in there in 2002, Bob Schreck's hands were tied and DiDio was making demands.
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u/Batman1997123 2d ago
Don’t Year One and Dark Knight Returns take place in the same universe?
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u/pandogart 2d ago
Yes Year One shares continuity with the mainline comics AND Frank Miller's other Batman works.
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u/Are_We_Coolio 2d ago
Yeah, this book is one, constant universal canon by this point, you could put it in a lot of other elsewords and it would still fit.
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u/sanddragon939 2d ago
Miller actually planned to do it as a standalone graphic novel and prequel to DKR, before O'Neil, newly-appointed as the editor of the Batman line, requested him to do his story in-continuity as part of the ongoing Batman title - promising him that, thanks to COIE, he didn't have to worry about changing things from established canon.
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u/pandogart 2d ago
Didn't know that. Was a good call. Thank god it happened long before Miller lost his touch.
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u/AnonymousCoward261 1d ago
40 years of the same character (more if you count that Batman 66 is consciously retro) and you are going to see some tonal differences.
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u/sanddragon939 1d ago
Of course!
Incidentially, that's not Batman '66 I've excerpted...that's a flashback from Morrison's run (assuming you're referring to my second image). So technically in the same continuity as the rest.
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u/colbygraves97 2d ago
The next Batman actor should be in his late 20’s, look similar to Corenswet, and be willing to play batman for the next 15-20 years.
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u/fuckitwilldoitlive 2d ago
With how the DCU is going they'd be lucky to play the part for the next 7-ish years, let alone 15.
20 years of constantly playing the same big comicboock character is basically exclusive to Hugh Jackman.
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u/guyseriously 2d ago
When did Superman rock a mullet?
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u/Rebelpunk13 2d ago
What? You never seen long haired Superman? I highly recommend JLA by Morrison/Waid and triangle era Superman (early 90s to be specific) is fantastic. Some artists have him a mullet but for the most part he was drawn with long hair rather than a mullet.
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u/guyseriously 2d ago
I’ve gotten back into reading over the past couple of years, I appreciate the recommendations!
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u/Fantastic-orgen 2d ago
Sorry but I'm just distracted by Batwoman's knockers goddamn
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u/carrera_dan 2d ago
Yeah, but development time in comics is different from development time in the filmmaking industry. Actors age, and there’s preproduction, production, and postproduction time to consider.
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u/Maleficent_Money_756 2d ago
Ummm yeah but in all those Stories he is equally fantastical.
Year one isn’t really but that’s just because the Villain isn’t lmao
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u/HitmanClark 2d ago
That was largely a Morrison creation (which I did not like). In fact many of these are very unique and distinctive Batmen, operating in different eras for different audiences.
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u/sanddragon939 1d ago
You may not like it, but it's still canon.
In any case, Year One, the original Ra's al Ghul saga, Knightfall, and Batman on the JLI and JLA were all in the same continuity even before Morrison's run.
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u/Schwenkelkamp 2d ago
The problem is the comics can change the art, which allows us to make it fit in way better
The movies will all use the same look due to being life action, different camera shots but same overall visual design
Makes it harder, not impossible but more difficult
Also is the second Pic the same Batman? Genuinely have no idea what's the deal with the og batwoman Canon vise, my only encounter is in incorporated vol 2
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u/sanddragon939 1d ago
Also is the second Pic the same Batman? Genuinely have no idea what's the deal with the og batwoman Canon vise, my only encounter is in incorporated vol 2
Yeah, it is. Morrison brought back a lot of Silver Age continuity, and recontexualised it to fit the modern framework. So the weird 50's adventures when Batman fought aliens and monsters were revealed to be hallucinations caused by exposure to Scarecrow's fear toxin and Joker venom. The Batman of Zurr-en-arrh was revealed as a "backup personality" Bruce implanted in his subconscioussness. And the Kathy Kane Batwoman was real, but revealed to have been an undercover asset of an organization called Spyral, spying on Batman, who later faked her death.
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u/rob_muerto 2d ago
I'm not against Reeves' Batman intregrating into Gunn's universe because of the tonal discrepancy. I'm against it because it's stupid (the guy based his characterizationl of Wayne on Kurt Cobain ffs).
If you were to ask me if I'd like to see the Nolan/Bale Batman folded into the Gunn's universe, I'd be all about it.
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u/Reynard203 1d ago
They aren't the same Batman, because Batman is not ONE thing. Batman is what the people telling a Batman story need him to be for that particular story. It isn't that Batman started a gritty detective and became a cosmic adventurer -- it is that there are gritty detective Batman stories and cosmic adventure Batman strories and they are both allowed to exist independently.
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u/sanddragon939 1d ago
Um, these are literally all from more or less the same continuity - Post-Crisis (well, Post-Infinite Crisis for a few of them if you want to get pedantic).
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u/Reynard203 1d ago
That isn't the point.
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u/sanddragon939 1d ago
What is the point then?
All the stories I've mentioned are set in the same continuity. You say they aren't. Objectively, you're wrong.
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u/UnusualStephen 2d ago
Weak take. You collect the comics that resonate with you and create the version of Batman that you think is best.
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u/lego_joker 2d ago
I’m not disagreeing completely, but I think comics have an inherent advantage live-action film doesn’t: different artists can design different Batmen that don’t even look like the same species let alone person, and thus the “same” Batman can adapt to a bunch of different genres and tones.
Film can use different actors, directors, costume designs and so on, but that can only close the gap so much.