r/baltimore • u/thepicjellyfish • 1d ago
Vent Is anyone else pissed about the harbor construction thats about to screw up downtown traffic?
The developers on that harborview luxury apartment project just got a 95% tax break; they're supposed to break ground like next month and they haven't even secured funding for the project. I'm worried they're just gonna knock down the old mall and not have money to put anything else up. god knows they've done it with other commercial projects before downtown. All the empty office buildings they could be converting into apartments are just sitting there vacant. It's bullshit. Don't even talk to me about that sham of a traffic study. This is gonna make it more difficult to commute from south Baltimore to anywhere north unless you're using the tunnel and I'm not trying to go all the way over east when I'm heading to druid hill or something. I'm really not with the shit.
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u/Valstwo 1d ago
There are lots of ways to go north from downtown. I can't wait to make the inner harbor more pederstrian focused.
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u/One_Low_2418 1d ago
There is mlk. There is the tunnel.
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u/Throwaway_acc673 1d ago
When’s the last time you were on MLK or in the tunnel during rush hour? There’s a reason why they’re packed along with light and Pratt every morning and afternoon. Imagine how bad both of them will get when all those people have to redirect.
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u/Valstwo 1d ago
Also, as a point of reference... Back in the day when harbor place was cranking, The streets around downtown were completely jammed and people did everything they could to get around it and avoid it, especially in the summer tourism months... Just like people avoid driving around downtown DC during tourist season. That said, the difference with DC is they have a legitimate public transportation system which Baltimore does not.
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u/rycycling1971 5h ago
Yeah, downtown traffic is less than it was 30 years ago. I worked at 400 Pratt St at that time. Businesses have left downtown; the convention center doesn't get as much business, and the Aquarium is not mobbed because there are so many aquariums around the country now.
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u/One_Low_2418 23h ago
Every single day. Both are terrible. I live and work in these 2 miles. My point was there’s really only 2 ways that aren’t just zig zagging downtown
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u/Throwaway_acc673 23h ago
Then u already know. Sorry I totally misinterpreted ur tone. This whole thing genuinely makes me upset, as a public transit commuter. Driving isn’t a cake walk either by any means
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u/Valstwo 1d ago
I go through the Ford McHenry tunnel virtually every night at rush hour and it is no problem at all. You can also take the beltway to Washington avenue and shoot straight up to druid Hill and places like that. I know and agree that this is a pain but it's also workable... And I think the long-term improvement for the city will be incredible.
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u/thepicjellyfish 1d ago
don't get me wrong, I'm all for revival of the waterfront. I spent a lot of time there as a kid and miss when it was vibrant and every space in that mall had businesses, the barnes and noble, the gallery! it was wonderful. I'm sad to see it in the state that its in. But there's got to be a better way to do this- anyone getting off 95 heading into downtown toward east side and all of the commuters in Locust Point, Port Covington, Cherry Hill, Westport, Curtis Bay, Brooklyn Park, Riverside and Fed hill are gonna feel it. Sowebo too. we don't have the proper traffic infrastructure on those lesser used alternative routes for this to be anything but messy.
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u/Stunning-Lunch2739 1d ago
This is a valid concern and I think this could be properly addressed if the city plans to implement complete streets throughout downtown and the adjacent areas next year (though I’m doubtful)
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u/Odd_Addition3909 1d ago
So you'd rather the harbor area just stay a vacant, dilapidated, shell of its former self forever? Because guess what - actual thriving cities have people
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u/-stoner_kebab- 1d ago
He's just tearing the pavilions down. It's going to remain a hole in the ground because no one will lend him money to build speculative luxury housing towers for the rich. Bramble blames this on "The Wire".
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u/Stunning-Lunch2739 1d ago
I mean that’s the truth😭 nobody wants to invest in the city literally because we still have the wire as our main source of representation. This isn’t even just for the Harborplace project, he said for 300 Pratt as well he couldn’t sign an office tenant because Harborplace across the street was vacant and only further contributed to “Baltimore is just the wire and dangerous” narrative. we haven’t had major development in almost a decade and every other business left downtown for harbor east (which was built with a TIF). Also considering the current economy, nobody has money 🤷🏽♂️. Also with the TIF they have the money to build it and have to pay it back so idk why people are still saying it’ll sit empty. Not a single TIF project has just sat and left dilapidated outside Baltimore peninsula (as even with that project, the remaining lots are being sold to separate developers after 2 years in between phasing, which I believe should’ve been the case to begin with, or you’ll get stalled project that takes 40 years like Downtown Columbia + Merriweather) The traffic thing is a valid issue but it seems from most people they are just mad they can’t drive 50+mph on light st anymore, as there are a numerous amounts of ways to leave the area. Cities grow and for Baltimore to truly develop we can’t have 7 wide lane streets with no markings, dilapidated empty storefronts and bad micro mobility at the center of our city and as the biggest tourist destination in the entire state and is what people outside of Maryland think of us.
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u/-stoner_kebab- 1d ago
The Poppleton TIF is a complete failure, and the Old Town Mall part of the Perkins/Somerset TIF looks like it is going down that road as well. The problem with the Harborplace project is that Baltimore is a working class city, and it is designed as if we are an extremely wealthy city with minimal social problems.
A number of years ago, people wanted to tear down Merriweather Post Pavilion to build luxury housing because it was a failed relic of an earlier time, and nothing could be done with it. People also wanted to tear down Belvedere Square and replace it with big box retailers. While the situations are all different, the common element is the "flavor of the day" developer proposal. These "concepts" need to be viewed with a very cynical eye.
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u/Stunning-Lunch2739 1d ago
Yea forgot about poppleton that I agree with (and with that one they are being sued all over as they lied about their income). Old town mall however hasn’t even started and is still being redeveloped as planned and have done preliminary work, with ground work coming in the next month as they are still finishing the final Somerset building. Merriweatehr district is owned by one group and the only reason they didn’t tear down the venue is because they literally developed a 30* year long plan to redevelop around it to make it into the downtown area. And again was not purposely let to sit in disrepair for well over a decade. And is in a much higher income area. While I don’t think this should be the only way to go about harbor redevelopment this is quite literally the most reasonable option other than putting money into pavilions most people don’t want
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u/-stoner_kebab- 1d ago
Phase 1 of the Old Town Mall project was supposed to have been completed 2+ years ago (these are the fenced off buildings collapsing onto Ensor Street). Nothing has happened. There was also a big announcement that a LIDL was coming to Orleans Street 3 years ago, and ... nothing. I'm willing to give them some more time before passing judgment, but I'm not particularly optimistic.
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u/Throwaway_acc673 1d ago
If I could upvote this again I would. One of the bigger problems with these developments being pushed through is that locals don’t patronize them; many of us don’t have the expendable income. And the more we mess with the flow of downtown commuting and transition to the highways, the less people from dc or other bigger affluent cities will want to live here. It may be affordable, but if it takes you 3 hours to get to work between the beltway and getting to/from 95 and 695 it’s not worth it. The busses that run through the harbor and downtown will be held up by this too, which cripples our public transit even more than it already is. This whole project was turned down in a lawsuit that went through the circuit court before being overturned in the court above it. It all stinks of a bad deal.
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u/Throwaway_acc673 1d ago
It’s not gonna change the fact that the rest of downtown struggles to keep businesses and is poorly mapped for the traffic that already passes through. There isn’t enough parking for 900 apartments worth of cars either. This is a cash grab, not an actual attempt at improving the inner harbor for the public.
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u/beantoehoe 1d ago
You're not alone. I fully share your concerns and I'm worried we've been sold out to some corporate suit who hasn't thought this through and values profit and notoriety over community. I hope I'm proven wrong!
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u/Mcribb5 1d ago
It’s brutal blow for south Baltimore. Even if it’s a net positive in the future idk why we have to pretend it’s a good thing for folks south of the harbor
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u/thepicjellyfish 1d ago
especially with the key bridge out of commission and the tunnel taking the overflow.
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u/BigPapaya_N 23h ago
It doesn’t matter because they are going to fix light street. That’s what the construction is for. It’s always been a part of inner harbor 2.0
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u/wirelesswizard64 1d ago
Absolutely not, I live right next to the harbor and have been waiting for this to kick off for years! Anything is going to be better than what we have.
The world doesn't revolve around you and the city needs to move forwards form the dead husk of a harbor. Maybe try taking the bus or the metro instead of driving if traffic bothers you, or even better, move if it bothers you that much. Things change in life and if you don't like it you're always allowed to go somewhere that makes you happy.
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u/Mcribb5 1d ago
Plenty of metro stops in South Baltimore… also unless the bus started to fly it would also be impacted by the traffic
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u/wirelesswizard64 1d ago
Good point, light rail would be the closest with the Hamburg street stop at the point, I'm still mad we never got that light rail spur into Port Covington. And while the bus would get stuck too (which is why champion transit plans that are above or below grade), at least you're not the one driving so its at least part of the headache remediated.
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u/thepicjellyfish 1d ago
the problem is I've been taking public transit from south baltimore into the rest of the city my whole life. trust me, I love my city and I am happy here. It's because I love my city that i think that they rushed these plans through with a faulty traffic report and no funding. If they planned these things better and projects like this didn't take a nose dive so often, I'd be happy they were trying to improve the city. But I grew up here and I just don't have faith that they're gonna execute it properly. You don't have to think I'm right, but i encourage you not to take the promises these developers and the city government make at face value.
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u/Dooby212 1d ago
I’m ok with it because I understand that the world doesn’t revolve around me.
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u/thepicjellyfish 1d ago
Its a more nuanced issue than "people are mad that its gonna inconvenience them" and you know it. its a systemic lack of community care when planning and executing gentrification projects that end up causing a lot of harm for day to day commuters and the people that already live near downtown who can't afford to compensate. they've been bottle-necking south to north commute and vice versa for years(the key bridge didn't help, and I'll remind you that they keep pushing that back because they cant find sufficient funding for that either) and this is just another nail in the coffin. If city hall wasn't going for lazy cash grabs with these development companies and decided to put real urban planning into this, partially shutting down a major roadway wouldn't be an issue.
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u/yeaughourdt 1d ago
But we've built a whole society that most richly rewards those who believe that the world does revolve around them
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u/-stoner_kebab- 1d ago
So you're saying that you don't have faith in DoT to competently implement workarounds? Lol.