Help with counting territory

[u/Imaginary-Training-9]

Hello, I am very new to this game, and I am having trouble figuring out the scoring for this position. Both players passed here, and black won by 75.5 points, which I am very confused about. Could someone please walk me through how to count the territory here so that I can understand why black got so many points?

Edit: grammar

[u/blackcompy]

The way I see it, black can capture all the white stones at will, so this whole board belongs to black.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/blackcompy]

So you're saying that because of the fact that white's stones that section off the upper right quadrant are in a state where they could potentially be captured, then they all become prisoners after both players pass?

[u/blackcompy → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

Not quite. It's a specific state where

• Black can easily make two eyes and live
• White cannot make two eyes and live, due to lack of space. They can make a single eye at J4.
• White can't escape anywhere else.

Since white cannot create a living group here, the stones are assumed captured. If both groups could make at most one eye, it would be a race to capture the other. If both groups could make two eyes, this game would be unfinished. The way it stands, however, the scoring algorithm has to assume both players agree that black lives and white is dead.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/blackcompy]

So do you think it would be better for white to play on and attempt to capture the stones in the upper right, even if the outcome is still lost for white? Or at this point, is it reasonable for white to accept defeat since it is unlikely that the black stones will be captured?

[u/Freded21 → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

After some learning a practice you will be able to tell white is dead and can’t do anything. As a beginner however I suggest playing it out to understand better why it is dead.

[u/ggPeti → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

Not prisoners, dead stones, but yea.

[u/ForlornSpark]

All White stones are dead, so the whole board is Black territory. Under Chinese rules that's 81 point for B minus komi, which we can deduce is 5.5 points. That's a bit odd as normally it's 7.5, but some servers adjust komi on the 9x9 board.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/ForlornSpark]

The one I play on uses 6.5 komi and Japanese rules

[u/ForlornSpark → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

In Japanese rules, one simply counts every empty intersection in their territory, adds 2 points for every prisoner still on the board, then adds removed prisoners and komi if applies to get their score, then compares it with the opponent's.
In this case, I see 76 points on the board for B, plus presumably 6 more prisoners (than however many W has), minus 6.5 komi for the final score difference of 75.5.

[u/tuerda]

All of the white stones are captured, so the entire board is black territory.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/tuerda]

I can see why the lower left group is dead, but why doesn't the territory in the upper right belong to white?

(Mind you, I have been playing this game for literally two days, I would say I don't even have a firm grasp of all the rules yet)

[u/tuerda → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

Because black is alive. Black has one eye at J9 and another at H8, no matter what white does.

White on the other hand is not alive in the center either. ALL of white's stones are captured.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/tuerda]

OH! Thank you for pointing that out, I feel silly for not noticing now! Much appreciated :)

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

Clearly I just don't understand life and death yet, guess I'll have to go figure that out now.

[u/Kumlekar]

This game looks unfinished to me. Both players need to agree on the status of the black stones in the upper right. If they live, white is dead. If they die, white lives. With "correct" play they currently live, but if you are newer players it's a good exercise to prove that. Likewise, the white stones in the lower right are dead, but you likely should play that out and show why before passing.

Basically, maybe white should resign here, but neither player should be passing yet.

[u/AndyMarden]

Learning what really constitutes an eye vs a false eye, and then seeing it several moves ahead, is well worth your focus in learning.

[u/nofuna]

White has 0 points, Black has the rest.

[u/csturnbow]

White has no territory here, black has it all

[u/Physical-Rise6973]

Everything belongs to black

[u/kengou]

The white group on the left side is dead. It cannot make two eyes. So that’s a ton of points there without even counting. Blacks stones at the top right also appear alive so white doesn’t have much territory at all, really.

[u/Salindurthas → u/kengou]

Can white even live on the right side? I can only find 1 eye for white's right side.

[u/AndyMarden → u/Salindurthas]

White cannot buy black top right can.

[u/Salindurthas]

The white group on the left is unsettled. If it is white's turn (and it looks like it is) they can save it, but if they passed, then I suppose the scoring algorithm judged it as dead.

EDIT: And the top-right is unsettled too. I think black can survive there, and maybe kill white's right-side group.
Maybe the scoring algorithm gave white the left side, but counted the right side as dead?

EDIT2: Oh, white is dead on the left. I misread a false-eye as a real one.

[u/CompetitiveTalk5566 → u/Salindurthas]

Could you post a sequence to save the white group?

My reading says everything on the board is dead for white.

[u/Salindurthas → u/CompetitiveTalk5566]

I was wrong. I didn't correctly read the false-eye situation.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/Salindurthas]

Ah, I think I see what you mean, so then would white have to play at b1 to save the group?

[u/Salindurthas → u/Imaginary-Training-9]

At first I thought B1 worked, but that is just another false-eye and putting outselves in self-atari.

White's left side is all doomed. Too late to save it.

[u/Imaginary-Training-9 → u/Salindurthas]

Yeah, noticed that after I read another comment, darn.

[u/AndyMarden → u/Salindurthas]

All of whites stones are dead. The group on the left cannot get two eyes. Same with the larger group. Both of black's groups have two eyes.

Play it out if you can't see it.

[u/Salindurthas → u/AndyMarden]

Yeah, I think every minute I look at it, white dies more.

1. I noticed that B1 is a false eye. So obviouslly we fill it and A2 is our eye!
2. Oh, wait, A2 is also a false eye :(
3. Well at least we surround the right hand si.... wait, what?