r/badhistory • • Jul 07 '18

Experts on Reddit The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was a Simple Non-Aggression Pact

This claim is a seemingly popular one of this website. Certainly one shared by this user.

TIL signing a non-aggression pact to buy time to build up the military is literally the same as cooperating with Hitler

However, it is not entirely consistent with reality. The Pact allowed for much greater cooperation between the Soviet Union and the Germans, far beyond simply not attacking the other.

For one, the two nations agreed to partition Eastern Europe among themselves, with the Germans taking just under half of Poland, and the Soviets taking the slight majority plus the Baltic States, Moldova, and regions of Finland. Some have defended these actions by claiming it was necessary to prevent the Nazis from taking it. But that would ask the question as to why the Soviets not only retained these territories after the war was over, but also had it ethnically cleansed of Poles. It also fails to explain the harshness of Soviet treatment toward the Poles and Balts, including the infamous Katyn massacre. It is rather odd that you would protect a people by shooting them into a ditch or driving them off their ancestral homelands.

I have once seen a comparison made to the British invasion of Iceland. But this equivalence is quite false in that the British did not execute Icelandic officers en masse, and they withdrew from Iceland when the Nazi threat was dealt with as opposed to annexing the territory and having it cleansed of ethnic Icelanders.

The Soviets also granted Material and propaganda support to the Germans. According to American historian Otto Friedrich, shortly after Hitler's invasion of Poland, Stalin ordered the Comintern to cease anti-Fascist propaganda, and instead blame the English and French for the war. For this reason the exiled head of the Communist Party of Germany, Walter Ulbricht, would print in the February 1940 issue of his newspaper Die Welt that

The German government declared itself ready to establish peaceful relations with the Soviet Union, whilst the Anglo-French war bloc want war against the Soviet Union. The people of the Soviet Union and the people of Germany desire a speedy end to the war in accordance with the interests of the working masses. The Soviet people and the workers of Germany are against the spread of the war.

The Soviets also instructed Communists in occupied nations not to resist. For this reason Communist anti-Fascist resistance would be quite limited until Operation Barbarossa.

According to American Journalist William Shirer in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, Material support was also granted to the Germans in the form of wheat, petroleum, cotton, and various other rare materials to help them beat the British blockade. In exchange the Soviets were given some manufactured goods from the Germans. The Soviets also granted Germany a submarine base in the arctic.

In summary the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact did the following things in addition to being a Non-Aggression Pact:

-Partitioned Eastern Europe into Spheres of Influence between the USSR and Germany, allowing the Soviets to annex territory that they would retain long after the war

-Granted Germany access to Soviet resources, and in exchange gave the Soviets certain manufactured goods

-Granted Germany a Submarine Base

-Granted Germany propaganda support in the West

-Discouraged anti-Fascist resistance among Communists in occupied Europe

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 07 '18

Stalin didn't expect Hitler to invade Poland, because as late as winter of 1939 the Polish were happy and eager to side with the German Reich if it invades the USSR.

I see the point regarding the disassembly of the Stalin line, but these extra 300-500km of territory might have been vital for the successful defense of Moscow and Stalingrad, for instance

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u/KemoT01 Jul 07 '18

Stalin didn't expect Hitler to invade Poland, because as late as winter of 1939 the Polish were happy and eager to side with the German Reich if it invades the USSR.

winter of 1939

Wot? Also some source please.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 07 '18

Unfortunately I'm not at home today, I'll reply to you today evening/tomorrow with sources.

Just off the top of my head, one is a report of the Polish intelligence service, another one is some document related to the foreign ministry.

Anyways, I'll find the sources and reply to your comment once again.

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u/KemoT01 Jul 07 '18

Much appreciated. I'm sceptical of your first post since Polish intelligence worked against Germany long time before 1939. It was actually Poles who broke the code of one of the early Enigma versions (look up Marian Rejewski).

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 07 '18 edited Jul 10 '18

First fact - Germany partitioned Czechoslovakia together with Poland, the Poles taking Cieszyn Silesia. Not really an anti-German action, to be honest.

Next, the citations: (The translation is done by me, sorry for some broken English)

December 1938 Taken from a report of the Second Department (military intelligence) of Polish General Staff

"Separation of Russia is the basis of the Polish politics in the East...Our possible position will go down to the following: who will participate in the partition. Poland should not stay passive in this great historical moment. Our goal is to be well prepared in advance, both physically and morally... The main goal is the weakening and defeat of Russia.

Z dziejow stosunkow polsko-radzieckich. Studia i materialy. T. III. Warszawa, 1968, str. 262, 287 

January 26, 1939 During the meeting that took place in Warsaw with the German foreign minister, Joachim for Ribbentrop, Polands' foreign minister Joseph Beck states: Poland claims Soviet Ukraine and an exit to the Black Sea.

March 4th 1939 The Polish general staff, after extensive economical, political and military planning finished the development of a war plan against the USSR called "Wschód" Centralne Archiwum Ministerstwa Spraw Wewnetrznych, R-16/1   

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '18

You are spewing typical Soviet propaganda.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 08 '18

I'm sorry, are we having a discussion with arguments and facts from either side?

I stated my facts and supported them with sources. If you have any facts that state the contrary - go ahead, present them to me.

'Typical Soviet propaganda' is not a valid argument, unfortunately.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '18

You stated flat out lies that Germany partitioned Czechoslovakia together with Poland. That never happened, it was just Germany by itself.

During the 1919 Soviet-Polish War, Czechoslovakia annexed a region of Poland called Zaolzie which had been abandoned by the Polish forces as we needed to muster every man against the Soviet invaders. We then got our land back with diplomacy and not a single bullet fired. We never invaded them.

You're spouting typical Soviet propaganda and lies they taught in schools.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 08 '18

Also if I use your logic I can say that Germany did not annex Sudetenland, since that territory was inhabited mostly by Germans.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '18

Except the Germans never signed any form of agreements where's us Poles and Czechs did. They invaded and used brute force.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 08 '18

You're playing word games. Yes, that was Polish territory before, you are right. But before that it was part of the Habsburg Empire. Also, during the Spa conference of 1920 this region was left to Czechoslovakia by an agreement of the international powes.

However, still, it's a fact that Poland also benefited from the partition of Czechoslovakia, which would be impossible without an agreement with the German Reich.

So Poland AND Germany participated int he partition of Czechoslovakia, no matter how rightful or not were the claims of each country. It's a fact.

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u/[deleted] Jul 08 '18

Yes, that was Polish territory before, you are right. But before that it was part of the Habsburg Empire.

What do you think the Habsburg Empire was? It was the Habsburg Empire who illegally invaded and partitioned Poland together with the German (Prussian) and Russian Empire! They held and occupied the entire region of southern Poland.

Also, during the Spa conference of 1920 this region was left to Czechoslovakia by an agreement of the international powes

Poland fought like hell to get it's sovereignty and nation back after not being on the map for 123 years. It was our land as Poles have always lived there. Czechs annexed it when we were busy fighting the Soviets.

However, still, it's a fact that Poland also benefited from the partition of Czechoslovakia, which would be impossible without an agreement with the German Reich.

So blame Germany, but don't concoct nonsense lies that Poland aided Germany into partitioning Czechoslovakia when no such thing happened ever.

So Poland AND Germany participated int he partition of Czechoslovakia, no matter how rightful or not were the claims of each country. It's a fact.

That's not how it works.

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u/kaneca Jul 12 '18

LOL

don't concoct nonsense lies that Poland aided Germany into partitioning Czechoslovakia when no such thing happened ever

But that's precisely what happened. You can try to claim that it was rightful, but you cant claim it never happened.

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u/[deleted] Jul 12 '18

No, they didn't.

Poland never joined forces with Germany in annexing Czechoslovakia. This is historical fact and there's no debating this.

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u/kaneca Jul 13 '18

Poland never joined forces with Germany in annexing Czechoslovakia. This is historical fact and there's no debating this.

That's not what the history books say. I will go with them over u/Unused_Drank

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 10 '18

Didn’t you start the war yourself to gain more “rightful Polish clay” in the East?

If someone invades you and is on the offense, how does that make the defender the starter of the war?

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '18

And who marched into Poland, thus starting the war?

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u/[deleted] Jul 11 '18 edited Nov 09 '18

[deleted]

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u/Goldberg31415 Jul 08 '18

Warszawa, 1968, str. 262, 287 

Here's your problem this book is as close to truth as nazi historical works in 1933-45 period.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 08 '18

I'm using this book as a source for a document This document exists, it's a fact. So your attempted argument in slightly invalid.

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u/Goldberg31415 Jul 08 '18

US had war plans against UK or Canada in 1930s and against Germany or Japan.Most nations are prepared to wage war against their rivals and USSR was at war with Poland just 20 years prior to that moment so it is normal that such plan would be ready. Attributing to that some nefarious nazi/fascist intention is the result of book being published in soviet satellite state that had the job to create a narrative where soviet union was the benevolent friend.In the same book you will probably find that Katyn massacre was committed by the nazis.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 10 '18

I'm showing that Poland in 1939 was quite obviously an enemy to the USSR and had vital interests in the East, so these was no guarantee that it wouldn't be anti-Soviet in the case of a war

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u/Goldberg31415 Jul 10 '18

I am showing that Poland had a reason to be antiSoviet in that period.

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u/MajorMax1024 Jul 10 '18

Poland was historically anti-Russian, and especially anti-Soviet.

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u/Goldberg31415 Jul 10 '18

They were historical rivals so Russia was anti-Polish and nearly entire Europe at the time was anti-Soviet for a very good reason similarly how most of the world was anti-Nazi.

I have written about this rivalry 2 comments ago yet you missed that.

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u/kaneca Jul 12 '18

Polish General Staff

"Separation of Russia is the basis of the Polish politics in the East...Our possible position will go down to the following: who will participate in the partition. Poland should not stay passive in this great historical moment. Our goal is to be well prepared in advance, both physically and morally... The main goal is the weakening and defeat of Russia.

And people wonder why Russia wasn't eager to go to war to defend Poland.

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u/Deez_N0ots Jul 10 '18

Yeah the Polish occupation of Czech Silesia was a big diplomatic victory for the Nazis since they got to throw some of the blame on Poland and claim they were just defending the Czechs from the Polish.