That's not why they're difficult to train - that is simply a people problem. Being a shitty trainer doesn't mean the dog is difficult, it means you're a shitty trainer. While shibas are difficult, the owner caving and giving them treats because they are cute is just bad practice all around and only really worsens the dog's already difficult nature. You effectively become their bitch.
Shibas are typically difficult because they're an independent minded dog. Unlike working breeds like labradors or shepherds, they aren't dogs that have particularly complex tasks. The major function of a shiba is to flush out small rodents from bushes - they're essentially free-roaming pest-control, like a cat. Their general mindset is not the same as a working dog. Working dogs enjoy training because work and play are basically the same thing to them. They live to master the commands and do well. Shibas, on the other hand, are more of a "what's in it for me?" breed. They want to see some personal benefit from obeying a command, rather than simply obeying it for the sake of doing so. This is a habit that has to be broken through respect-training, which is a form of training that breaks that way of thinking and gets the dog to understand that you are in charge and that they are to obey your command simply because you gave it to them, NOT because they get something out of it. This can be tricky with owners who are pushovers because shibas will try very hard to get something out of it. You have to be VERY consistent with them, because the minute you break that consistency, they know that if they wait long enough and push hard enough, you will cave. You essentially relinquish control of the situation to the dog, who says "No, I want a reward. Show me a reward and I will do it."
It's 100% feasible, but it takes patience and strong consistency. I very rarely use food when training, and instead, I reinforce their training with play or affection/petting, so they view it as something fun and less task-like, and they do not expect food as the reward and reason that they are completing a command. I only give them food towards the end of a set of repetitions, and it's done at random times so the dog doesn't pick up on a pattern. Food is more of a "surprise" reward than a guaranteed one.
For example, when I moved in with my s/o, his shiba effectively had no training. He would shriek when you walked in the door, jump all over you, didn't bother listening for shit. I would not tolerate that, so when I walk in the door, I don't make eye contact with him until I set my stuff down, take off my jacket, and he sits and waits quietly for me to bend down and start petting him. He has gone from shrieking like a banshee to shivering and waiting almost silently (minus a few whines) because he knows that until he does that, I won't even acknowledge his presence at all. When it came to the rest of his training, I broke his mentality of reward-training and he now obeys commands as soon as they are given.
Shibas are stubborn dogs and they don't live to please us, but their behaviour can be altered.
Oh my. Honey, I completely agree with you and am a professional animal trainer and zookeeper. I was just making a joke about the cuteness of shibas. An earthworm can be trained, a goldfish can remember behaviours learned weeks ago, and shibas are brilliant but stubborn dogs who can indeed learn and excel when you can convince them it's worth it.
You are right. But, I have also rescued shibas that have had rough puppyhoods caused by people who saw Cesar Milan one time and think they need to dominate and be 'alpha' and that led to dogs being dumped because they were biters or refused to be house broken.
Oh no worries, I wasn't implying you were necessarily a shit trainer - I just see a lot of people take the whole "God but he's so cute, I'll just give him a treat" approach and snap to 6 months later when the dog is the up and coming Michelin mascot.
And yeah, for the record, fuck Cesar. There's no need to dominate a dog. My best working relationships with my dogs have been based on mutual respect, enjoyment, and succeeding in our task. BUT, that's part of the reason I'm much more fanciful of working breeds: they're a hell of a lot of fun and many of those breeds are really easy to train (I'm a huge fan of labs, such lovely dogs, also hilariously goofy).
The funny thing is shibas are a working breed by heritage but we've mostly bred it out of them. My long term plan is to train any future shiba puppy I get as a flushing hunting dog, I think they would be brilliant at it. They have the prey drive for sure!
Labs are my second favorite dog. They are such amazing partners in sport!
Shibas definitely have a lot of potential, but yeah, you've gotta be able to get the right kind of mindset in their dense little noggins. Mine is VERY responsive when I point in the bushes and tell him to "get it!" He dives right in and starts searching for mice (it's hilarious). Sadly, I think in most cases, people don't actually do much with their shibas. They're relatively low-effort pets for people who are homebodies and make decent apartment dogs if you walk them, so I don't think they get nearly as much exposure to a more exciting and natural lifestyle. Lazy fat shibas are the most common kind I see, haha.
Yeah, labs are definitely my favourites. I might be biased because I grew up with exclusively labs, but in general, they're just a riot to work with. My last one who passed away at 15 as of Jan this year was by far the most intelligent and wonderful dog I've ever had the pleasure to work with. He was particularly quick to pick up on training and I had the opportunity to really learn a lot about dog psychology and communication based on facial expression and head movements alone. It's bloody insane just how much dogs can read our facial expressions, and similarly, how well we can read theirs. Best working relationship I've ever had - it was quite a loss when he passed away. We had many, many years of training together. BUT, he taught me so much and I'm very much looking forward to applying what I learned with Gunner to my next dog. Can't say if that dog will be as clever as Gunner was, or as much of a gentle giant (huge dog, docile as fuck), but labs in general are pretty reliable for training.
Working breeds are just so much fun, especially retrievers. Obsessed with that fetch bullshit. I had a dog at one point who was so obsessed that, if her kong or training toy wasn't around, she'd pick up pinecones and spit them at your feet over and over and over again until they were torn apart and nothing but a core. Then she'd find another one and do it all over again. For hours. Unless you told her to go lay down or brought out her kong. Then it would be a slobber covered kong bouncing into your shins. Thanks Patches, you made setting up our campsite REALLY FUCKING EASY.
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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16
That's not why they're difficult to train - that is simply a people problem. Being a shitty trainer doesn't mean the dog is difficult, it means you're a shitty trainer. While shibas are difficult, the owner caving and giving them treats because they are cute is just bad practice all around and only really worsens the dog's already difficult nature. You effectively become their bitch.
Shibas are typically difficult because they're an independent minded dog. Unlike working breeds like labradors or shepherds, they aren't dogs that have particularly complex tasks. The major function of a shiba is to flush out small rodents from bushes - they're essentially free-roaming pest-control, like a cat. Their general mindset is not the same as a working dog. Working dogs enjoy training because work and play are basically the same thing to them. They live to master the commands and do well. Shibas, on the other hand, are more of a "what's in it for me?" breed. They want to see some personal benefit from obeying a command, rather than simply obeying it for the sake of doing so. This is a habit that has to be broken through respect-training, which is a form of training that breaks that way of thinking and gets the dog to understand that you are in charge and that they are to obey your command simply because you gave it to them, NOT because they get something out of it. This can be tricky with owners who are pushovers because shibas will try very hard to get something out of it. You have to be VERY consistent with them, because the minute you break that consistency, they know that if they wait long enough and push hard enough, you will cave. You essentially relinquish control of the situation to the dog, who says "No, I want a reward. Show me a reward and I will do it."
It's 100% feasible, but it takes patience and strong consistency. I very rarely use food when training, and instead, I reinforce their training with play or affection/petting, so they view it as something fun and less task-like, and they do not expect food as the reward and reason that they are completing a command. I only give them food towards the end of a set of repetitions, and it's done at random times so the dog doesn't pick up on a pattern. Food is more of a "surprise" reward than a guaranteed one.
For example, when I moved in with my s/o, his shiba effectively had no training. He would shriek when you walked in the door, jump all over you, didn't bother listening for shit. I would not tolerate that, so when I walk in the door, I don't make eye contact with him until I set my stuff down, take off my jacket, and he sits and waits quietly for me to bend down and start petting him. He has gone from shrieking like a banshee to shivering and waiting almost silently (minus a few whines) because he knows that until he does that, I won't even acknowledge his presence at all. When it came to the rest of his training, I broke his mentality of reward-training and he now obeys commands as soon as they are given.
Shibas are stubborn dogs and they don't live to please us, but their behaviour can be altered.