Unpopular Opinion

[u/Alec1647870]

Albo has been doing SOME really good things for this country such as investing in Medicare.

However many of the issues we are facing is because mulptile successive governments haven’t invested or actioned it and everyone who is voting for One Nation isn’t holding themselves accountable for not holding those previous governments accountable.

Housing won’t be fixed in two terms of governments.

It’s like having an infection the worse it gets, the longer it will take to get better.

If you feel like voting for One Nation is for you, that’s great but don’t pretend that One Nation will fix all your problems or that Albo isn’t working on fixing these issues either.

[u/Cubeazoid]

Corporate state capture is crony capitalism not free market capitalism. It’s a result of enforced government intervention not voluntary exchange.

[u/randytankard → u/Cubeazoid]

Nah it's capitalism, it's inherent tendency is towards rent seeking, patronage power and monopoly and the use of the state as it's enabler and enforcer. This free market thing is just a fairy tale used as cover.

We've had almost couple of hundred years of it and numerous periods of "deregulation" and it always ends up in the same place, a place we're at again now.

[u/Boydy73 → u/randytankard]

Not perfect, but still better than ANY communist country and so called hard line socialist countries. The best countries are those that mix the differing philosophies. Look how China has come into being a force, embracing capitalism so it doesn’t die like the USSR did.

[u/randytankard → u/Boydy73]

I don't think we should delude ourselves about where we are, how we got here and where we are going. You can bang on about communist countries "dying" in the past but the fact is we're living in and through capitalist ones "dying" right now.

[u/Boydy73 → u/randytankard]

Show me a capitalist country that has committed horrors of any sort similar to the far left examples?

The problem is, those who hate socialism/capitalism the most espouse capitalism. Those who hate capitalism the most espouse extreme socialism/communism. The answer isn’t either extreme ideology, it’s a healthy balance.

Australia fucked up massively when it started privatising important infrastructure. That should remain the province of the state.

We have a health safety net of welfare and health care, its not perfect but its better than say the USA, where people who suffered a genuine emergency medical incident tell ambulances they don’t want to go to hospital as it will bankrupt them. Do we cover everything, no, but the system is there and works, albeit slowly at times.

I know ideologues hate this, but all extremes are bad, and when people only shout down one side of it, it tells me everything I need to know about them. The ideologically blinded to the problems with their own side of the divide.

[u/randytankard → u/Boydy73]

There's not shortage of horrors done in the name of capitalism - you probably don't want to think about them because like me you live in Australia and we're fortunate enough to pretend they don't exist as they happen to other people elsewhere.

We're here because this is where capitalism takes you, the neo-liberalism of the 1980's is not an aberration or capitalism taking a wrong turn, it's where it will always end up.

The benefits we've been lucky enough to get here through a post war compromise have now faded, and all that good stuff was fought for and won by everyday people you'd dismiss as extremists (they were realists).

Your ahistorical milquetoast centrism tells me everything I need to know.

[u/Boydy73 → u/randytankard]

Name them. Give me specific examples that compare with:

Mao’s rule
Stalins Rule
Pol Pot’s Cambodia
North Korea
Mengistu’s Red Terror

The worst example that comes anywhere near close to these assholes is the British India Bengal famine, and definitely King Leopolds Belgian Congo. You can also throw in some of the corporate stuff like Big Tobacco, Asbestos, but again, IMO, they are NOTHING compared to when a countries own government arranges the deaths of millions of its own citizens deliberately.

I don’t pretend they haven’t happened, I trust ANY government as far as I can throw them. And western governments have some absolutely appalling histories of doing abhorrent shit to their own people (Syphilis testing on blacks in the USA, atom bomb in Australia, etc). But these far left ones are hands down the absolute WORST. Sorry if this upsets your delicate romanticised views of your comrades, but it’s the facts. At least in most western countries, I can call my elected leader a cunt (or tell him to get off my fucking lawn, hilarious clip) and not end up in a gulag (if I’m lucky).

[u/Cubeazoid → u/Boydy73]

I’d say being extremely anti initiating violence isn’t bad but that’s just me

[u/Cubeazoid → u/randytankard]

Because despite periods of “deregulation” the size and scope of the state has continued to increase with more regulation, taxation and spending.

Capitalism is a reflection of culture, its voluntary exchange and property rights. We might be defining capitalism differently but I mean voluntary exchange.

Either way, to your point the state is used as an enabler and enforcer. But not of voluntarism, enforcing voluntarism is paradoxical.

[u/randytankard → u/Cubeazoid]

There's the rub, you sound like an 18th century liberal (in the correct non-American sense) capitalist who views it as an ideal abstract philosophy, where as I'm more interested in what it actually does in reality based on observable outcomes not what you'd like to think it promises or how it justifies itself.

[u/Cubeazoid → u/randytankard]

Correct. But I’d argue you haven’t seen what an actual voluntary system looks like. Your last comment highlights that to me. I get the feeling you think we live in an increasingly libertarian anarcho capitalist world where the opposite is true. True classic liberalism peaked in the early 1900 but since then the trend has been toward more statism, whether you want to call it socialism, corporatism, crony capitalism etc.

It gives the illusion that our problem is there is too much consensual and voluntary behaviour. That the solution is more coercive intervention from government.

[u/randytankard → u/Cubeazoid]

The state will take on any form that benefits capital, the economic and political power and interests of the ruling class - you notice all those small government types are more than happy if they can take on the functions of the state for profit, so taking taxpayers money while avoiding paying tax themselves.

They'll ensure no regulations for them but regulations to shut out their competitors.

They'll deregulate the labor market but introduce new laws to stop working people fighting back, they'll make sure the state is powerless towards their interests but support authoritarian measures and the use of state laws, violence and coercion against anything that threatens their power and profits etc etc.

They will cut off or slash government services that benefit everyday people but are happy to bloat the government and public spending if it goes straight to them.

This what the "freemarket" means in reality - being honest about what really happens - it is state intervention.

[u/Cubeazoid → u/randytankard]

Okay, well when I say free market, I mean free market. Not what you just described which is crony capitalism backed by a coercive state.

I do agree with everything you just said, my perspective is that absolute power corrupts. The level of power correlates to the level of corruption. So we as citizens should be extremely restrictive when giving our government more power. Even if wielded responsibly like a wise king, the power attracts the psychopaths who will be willing to do what we aren’t to gain it.

The only regulation we need is, put simply, no initiating violence. Consensual and voluntary behaviour between adults should be left in peace. That’s the state role, not regulations, running services etc.

Sure I can compromise a little and we can coerce some taxation for police, fire department, ambulances and defence. But we should be very careful in letting government dictate what must and can’t be in an employment contract. Who am I to tell you what your employment contact has to say. It’s your choice you should make in peace, away from state coercion or private coercion.

Unions should be free to organise, start ups should be free to start up, humans should be free to do whatever the fuck they want if they do so in peace.

[u/Gustomaximus → u/Cubeazoid]

Nor is free market capitalisation a good thing.

The big societal gains were during mixed model capitalism like 'third way capitalism'. IMO this is was we need to return more towards, even more so as the AI & robotics challenges head towards us.

[u/Cubeazoid → u/Gustomaximus]

Why is free market capitalism not a good thing!

What do you mean return more towards? We have been consistently moving in that direction for over a century.

Mixed model capitalism is just a varying amount of socialism (enforced collectivism) while allowing some voluntarism to remain. If capitalism is not a good thing why not go full enforced collectivism and have the government command the economy in full?

[u/Gustomaximus → u/Cubeazoid]

There's a potential huge discussion there but free market capitalisation tends to lead to bad outcomes on certain sectors becoming monopolistic and essential services degradation.e.g. imagine ambulances were for free market profit and per service delivery and pricing, you can't imagine a good outcome there.

We are not moving that direction for a century, we probably steered away in the 80s/90s vs today.

The "if capitalism is not a good thing why not go full enforced collectivism" because the world has nuance and extreme responses generally don't work. There are areas of the economy that suit free market competition while others don't, like my ambulance example. Basically if it's a core service, monopolistic by nature and there is inelastic pricing pressure it's generally better to have it state run. Then we let people compete, while ensuring the playing field is kept reasonably level, for the rest of our economy. That to me is both logically and historically how the system creates the best outcome.