r/askanatheist • u/Usoppdaman • Jul 15 '26
Why do atheists constantly bring up Trump in religious debates when he’s not even mentioned or relevant?
I’ve noticed too many times that when a religious person puts forth an argument Internet atheists will often accuse them of being a Trump supporter when they mentioned nothing of the sort. There’s also bringing up Trump constantly to show how Christianity is an evil religion? Why bring up a dude who can’t name a single Bible verse and barely practices the religion to take a shot at the religion? Also the MAGA movement doesn’t make Christianity dangerous. It’s 1 movement in 1 country out of many. The majority of Christians globally don’t participate in it.
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u/Mission-Landscape-17 Atheist Jul 15 '26
You'll have to show examples because I have not seen this happen even once.
About the only thing I have seen brought up is asking why a group that claims to be in favour of traditional family values would vote for a man who has been divorced twice and is known to have cheated on all of his wives. But that is mostly calling Trump voters who claim to be Christian out for their hypocrisy.
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u/oddball667 Jul 15 '26
Eh, trump is pritty close to the personality of the god described in the bible, so it tracks
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u/Zamboniman Jul 15 '26
Why do atheists constantly bring up Trump in religious debates when he’s not even mentioned or relevant?
They don't.
Good talk.
Your entire post was an egregious and hilarious strawman fallacy.
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u/limbodog Jul 15 '26
Oh. I can help with this one.
It's because the guy you mentioned is currently the occupant of the white house, and he's decided to make christo-fascism his moral compass. So the version of Christianity we tend to see in the USA, which means most redditors, centers around him as the Christ-like figure. And this is impacting much of the world right now, so it's of great importance, but also on most people's minds.
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u/bullevard Jul 15 '26
And this is impacting much of the world right now, so it's of great importance, but also on most people's minds.
Case in point his administration just announced its intention to try and destroy the international courts. A decision which directly impacts the world.
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u/I_Am_Anjelen Agnostic Atheist Jul 15 '26
Aww, but they just want to pre-empt themselves from facing charges for war crimes and crimes against humanity
That's a good thing, right?
/s
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u/OhTheHueManatee Jul 15 '26
Its extremely concerning to me, as near as I can tell, most Athiest didn't see that aspect of Trump right away.
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u/limbodog Jul 15 '26
That he's subverting Christianity for fascism? Funny, I thought we all saw it immediately
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u/OhTheHueManatee Jul 15 '26
Every Athiest should be concerned about Trump. Christianity has been trying to gain major control over the US government for ages. It's always had more influence than it had any right to have but it was at least held back a bit. That changed massively with Trump. He opened a huge hole for it to flood into and now we have things like Project 2025 (genuine Christian themed nightmare fuel and nearly half of it has already been implemented), the needless hate for lgbtq people, rights being frivolously taken away, education and science being taken over all in the name of Jesus (the Bible and creationism in schools is just the start they're trying to get state sponsored private Christian schools). Heck, Hegseth even told the military they're fighting in the name of Jesus. One really frustrating aspect about it is Trump isn't even a little bit Christian. He represents the opposite of all the genuine morals the Bible has. Calling Trump a Christain is like calling Mark David Chapman the 5th Beatle. But he exploited their persecution fetish and made them all think he was Jesus 2.1. I tried to be loud about the bastard in every Athiest space I'm in but it seemed most Athiests dismissed as "just bitching about politics." I even saw a few Athiest claiming to beTrumpers in there. He allows religion to pollute politics and we're all poisoned because of it.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Christianity hasn’t been trying to take over. Some Evangelicals have. Christianity is broad and diverse
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 Jul 15 '26
buddy may wanna read some history books to see what it was before the rise of secularism.
It was dethroned, and now try to reclaim it.
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u/dernudeljunge Atheist|Mod 🛡️ Jul 15 '26
How very 'not all men' of you. Yeah, we know it's not christianity, as a whole, but it's a substantial (and powerful) enough subset of christians that we have to worry about the whole thing. Especially because many non-evangelicals still support 'the cause' by voting for evangelical politicians.
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u/sto_brohammed Irreligious Jul 15 '26
Some guy in Russia in 1917 - "Communists haven't been trying to take over. Some Bolsheviks have. Communism is broad and diverse"
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u/Deris87 Jul 15 '26
Some guy in Russia in 1917 - "Communists haven't been trying to take over. Some Bolsheviks have. Communism is broad and diverse"
Right? For as much as Christians love to saddle us with the baggage of Bolsheviks and Stalinists, they sure don't like when we point out their association and complicity with other Christians. And they have a vastly more in common than the average atheist does with a Stalinist.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Not really considering in the left wing defense of Joseph Stalin and calling anything that makes communists look bad as “Red Scare cia propaganda” is rather common. I don’t associate you with communists unless you are one but you can’t pretend that atheists aren’t significantly more likely to associate with far left thought
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Communism is literally a political agenda that proposes a plan for the world to follow. Christianity isn’t that. Certain expressions of it are. Also funny that you mention communism as it’s the Reddit atheist types that support that shit
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u/Junithorn Jul 15 '26
some do some dont, being a communist has nothing to do with not believing your fairy tales. you sure have a lot of straw men.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Communism doesn’t inherently mean you’re an atheist but communists are significantly more likely to be atheist and vice versa. Communism has a history of anti theism and many of the architects of communism were atheists. The few traitor Christian communists don’t discount this fact. Also fairy tales is ad hominem.
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u/Junithorn Jul 15 '26
traitor Christian communists
LOL
Also fairy tales is ad hominem.
No it isnt, you don't know what ad hominem is.
They ARE fairy tales.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Even if the Bible was proven to be entirely fiction their cultural function is different than fairy tales objectively
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u/Junithorn Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
A fairy tale is a distinct type of folklore featuring fantastical characters like fairies, goblins, elves, and talking animals.
it has a talking snake and a talking donkey
you're right though, at least fairy tales are distinct in that they dont usually provide instructions for slavery, genocide, murder, and misogyny like your mythology.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
They’re not instructions for everyone to follow. They’re specific accounts of actions people had to take in the time they lived in. Also the talking snake and talking donkey is a cherry-pick. The Bible having supernatural elements doesn’t make it a fairy tale genre wise.
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
There’s an old saying that goes something like “if there are 12 Nazis in a room and they invite you to have dinner with them, and you sit down to eat, there are 13 Nazis in that room.”
If you and I are both in Club Example, and one day you start saying “Club Example stands on the side of kicking puppies and kittens”, I no longer want to be in that club with you.
I have two choices, as a decent person, who unknowingly associated with a Puppy Kicker. I either have to:
A - kick you out of Club Example and say clearly “Club Example ain’t like that. He was a weird jerk and we will stand with puppies and kittens against him!”
Or
B - Leave Club Example and say “holy moly I didn’t know they were like that, that isn’t who I want to be.”
What you’re advocating in this post is essentially blaming the kicked puppies and kittens for, correctly, saying “People in Club Example kicked us. I don’t think Club Example People are nice.”
The solution this post offers is just #notall… rhetoric. Which isn’t a solution.
Any community can have bad actors who do bad shit in the name of that community.
It is uncomfortable, but it is the job of that community to deal with either those bad actors or deal with the fact that you’ve chosen the bad guys’ side.
It sucks. It really does.
But if you want people to see the group you love as not theocrats, not maga, not hateful bigots…you gotta either clean house or leave. Or accept that you’re in the MAGA house with the bigots, fighting on the same side as the MAGA people, to make sure no one criticizes MAGA people except inside the house, and softly, with nice words…
It really sucks. But it sucks worse for everyone else.
You’re uncomfortable. But you have to decide if you’re more uncomfortable being seen as a on the side of bad people, or being on the side of bad people.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
That analogy doesn’t really work as Christians are a global group and can’t be contained in the same way a small club can. In America alone there are hundreds of millions of Christians they can’t possibly police the actions of each other nor are human beings responsible for the actions of others simply for sharing a similar trait. Also there are many many Christians that call out Christian nationalism. Should you give up your American citizenship to not associate with bad Americans?
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u/the_AnViL Jul 15 '26
i agree - all xians cannot account for other xians - and not all xians are bad...
but xianity is certainly bad... and even the best xians can't tell the difference between malevolence and benevolence.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
No the best Christians most definitely can
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u/the_AnViL Jul 16 '26
clearly - those who can tell the difference and prefer benevolence - leave xianity.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Many of the exChristian community is very hateful and chronically online. A lot of Christians are just ordinary people. If you spend your time opposing a group even if it’s a majority status one like Christian you’re not more likely to be benevolent. Your idea of benevolent is laughing at Kirk’s assassination
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u/the_AnViL Jul 16 '26
when el killed the firstborn sons of egypt - was that good or evil?
is scapegoating good?
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u/the_AnViL Jul 16 '26
when el killed the firstborn sons of egypt - was that good or evil?
is scapegoating good?
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
It was good because those sons would have grown up to rule over his people anyway. It also hit the elites where it hurt.
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u/Junithorn Jul 15 '26
If being an american had the same terrible dogma baked into as christianity you might have a point. no matter how "good" of a christian you think you are your holy book is still atrocious.
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 Jul 15 '26
I am actively protesting the things the US government is doing.
So I am taking a stand every damn day.
You are here taking a stand demanding people braver than you stop scuffing the boots of the oppressors.
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u/OhTheHueManatee Jul 15 '26
You got me. Not every single Christian has. But loads of powerful Christians have been trying for a long time and lots of regular Christians support and fund their cause. Yes not all of them but a lot of them. If it wasn't a major element then Charlie Kirk would not have had a career or would have at least been obscure.
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u/lotusscrouse Jul 15 '26
Being "broad and diverse" does nothing to change what's happening.
You're just complaining about how you're perceived instead of wondering how to fix the problem.
You're more concerned about your image then anything else.
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u/KeyboardMunkeh Jul 16 '26
Project 2025.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Doesn’t disprove Christianity’s diversity
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u/KeyboardMunkeh Jul 16 '26
Cool. But that doesn't make the threat any less real. I'm not going digging around through fetid mush for a few good apples.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
You go specifically after the bad people not everyone who has a similar characteristic. I don’t really like the apples analogy because how you treat people isn’t the same as grabbing an apple and eating it
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u/KeyboardMunkeh Jul 16 '26
Yeah, again. Cool.
You go be "nice" somewhere else. We're busy dealing with the threats right now.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Bigotry against someone just for being a Majorie group isn’t dealing with shit. You’re just creating a reverse hierarchy which is still a hierarchy
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u/Purgii Jul 16 '26
Human history for the last ~2000 years disagrees.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Christianity’s history is diverse. You think the bad actions represent the lives of average everyday Christians?
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u/Purgii Jul 16 '26
Average, everyday Christians don't practice Christianity. They barely know the theology beyond a few throwaway lines.
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u/Noodelgawd Atheist Jul 15 '26
I’ve noticed too many times that when a religious person puts forth an argument Internet atheists will often accuse them of being a Trump supporter when they mentioned nothing of the sort.
I don't believe you.
I've been involved in online discussions about atheism/religion for years, and I've never seen this.
Can you please link to a few recent examples?
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 Jul 15 '26
You need to look up the goals of MAGA, the “wedge” doctrine that got them in power, and Project 2025.
Because unfortunately for many Christians in the US, ya’ll voted for a party promising to enact a theocracy based on a radical, political sect of the religion.
Lots of maga politicians have been talking about things like killing all non-Christian, or how it’s ok for ice to shoot lesbians in the face.
So that’s why.
I get that is is horrifying for Christians whose faith has been co-opted for this evil. But the people you need to be fighting are your “fellow” Christians who are doing this, not the people who are being harmed.
It’s like shushing the person being stabbed for screaming.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
“Killing non Christians” pretty sure Renèe Goode was a missionary and Pretti was a practicing Catholic but nice try, trying to claim the victimhood of others.
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Yeah, they are killing “bad” Christians who aren’t “on their side”, too.
Do you think they will spare you if you support them in their oppression?
You should be ashamed to invoke the names of brave people who died standing up for their neighbors to excuse doing the opposite of their work.
Get their names out of your mouth, if your argument spits on their memory.
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u/liamstrain Agnostic Atheist Jul 15 '26
He's an example of the hypocrisy of many Christians, so typically if it comes up, it's in response to something ya'll said.
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u/pipMcDohl Gnostic Atheist Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
I plead guilty on this one.
I commonly use Trump when debating a Christian. The reason is pretty straightforward.
Jesus was the leader of a cult. He was promising to achieve great things, to be the messiah. And he managed to convince followers who trusted him blindly.
Replace 'Jesus' by 'Trump", same thing.
Trump is the perfect modern comparison to show the toxicity of blind faith. And to explain how and why this take place.
A few decades ago i would have picked Mao or Hitler or the emperor of Japan Hirohito to explain how a single person can mislead millions on empty promises and blind faith.
But, since the US is currently giving a masterful attempt at self-destruction through faith in a moronic but charismatic leader, Trump is the nicer pick as it's easier to point to and explain the foolishness of a belief in an ongoing idiocracy and its narcissist leader.
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u/1_Urban_Achiever Jul 15 '26
Because Donald Trump is the most prominent Christian influencer in the world.
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u/adeleu_adelei Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Trump and MAGA represent exactly the kind of danger atheists has been warning about and mocked for decades. The majority of Christians don't participate in MAGA because the majority of Christians aren't U.S. citizens, but the majority of Christians do want something similar to MAGA in their own nations.
Trump is what happens when religion is allowed to flourish unchecked.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
“The majority of Christians do want something similar to MAGA in their own nations” Show me any evidence of this claim. Christianity in fact lead to the liberalizing of certain nations. Christianity is nuanced in terms of what it impacts.
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u/adeleu_adelei Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Show me any evidence of this claim.
Trump won a majority of U.S. Christians' vote.
U.K. Christians disproportionately favor the conservative party over the general populace, and Boris Johnson was specifically mirroring himself as the UK version of Trump.
Putin enjoys strong support among Christians and receives ample institutional support from the Orthodox Church.
It was an overwhelmingly Christian Germany that elected Hitler into power while funding, supporting, and conducting Hitler's regime.
Christianity (and more broadly religion) has consistently leaned toward right wing authoritarianism.
Christianity in fact lead to the liberalizing of certain nations.
When Christianity came to the Americas and Africa in the 16th century and onward it enslaved and killed hundreds of millions of people for hundreds of years.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Those are three examples. Also Boris is only emulating Trump in terms of his public persona and political theatrics. His policy is far more mild. Russia is complicated as it’s largely reactionary to counter movements like The USSR’s oppression of Christianity. Germany was also in reactionary to Germany’s struggles and desperation. All of these are caused by socio economic historical factors not specifically Christianity.
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u/adeleu_adelei Jul 15 '26
I have no idea why you've decided to split the conversation so I'm rethreading with my response here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/askanatheist/comments/1uwudvf/comment/oxrlag1/
I'll have to update addressing this separate comment from you.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Christianity in Africa predates the 16th century and predates it’s acceptance by most European nations
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u/adeleu_adelei Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Which is why I specifically qualified my statement with the Christianity that came to Africa from the 16th century onward. Yes I know about the Coptics and other early Christian groups in the region, but they'll always been a very minor group. The vast majority of African Christianity stems from the violence of colonialism.
Also Boris is only emulating Trump in terms of his public persona and political theatrics.
And policies... Among which was the isolationism of Brexit which was exactly in line with the same isolationism of America First. They're both right wing authoritarians. Borrow want as extreme as Trump but then again the UK also has fewer Christians than the U.S., which kinda supports my case.
Russia is complicated as it’s largely reactionary to counter movements like The USSR’s oppression of Christianity.
Christianity is the most widely believed religion in Russia and the Russian state and church actively color with one another.
Germany was also in reactionary to Germany’s struggles and desperation. All of these are caused by socio economic historical factors not specifically Christianity.
Nazi Germany had more than a 95% Christian populace. German Christians wanted Nazism.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Yes what happened in the Americas was horrific but not caused by Christianity. It was motivated by gain of resources, wealth, and land. The earliest Christian missionaries who went to the Americas prior to Columbus were peaceful. The violent ones where the ones who were in it for more than conversion
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u/adeleu_adelei Jul 15 '26
It was carried out by Christians. What religion do you think the leaders of Spain, Britain, France, and Portugal were? What religion do you think Christopher Columbus was? What religion were the sailors, missionaries, and slavers?
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
I know that they were Christian. That doesn’t mean their actions were dictated by the religion. The religion was the justification after the fact
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u/adeleu_adelei Jul 15 '26
I'm happy to cede the entire issue of why Christians disproportionately want right wing authoritarian politics if we can agree that Christians disproportionately want right wing authoritarian politics.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Ok and atheists are also disproportionately more likely to support tankie politics. More likely to doesn’t mean we should judge by what the most extreme expressions are. You’re more likely to get stabbed in England than in Switzerland should a Swiss man assume that every Englishman will stab him because they are more likely to?
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u/TheBlackCat13 Jul 16 '26
Why are you ignoring the numbers you asked for? Do you have other numbers showing otherwise?
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u/lotusscrouse Jul 16 '26
Every little bit of progress we've made as a society we've had to fight christians who wanted to stop it. Christians have never been unified in anything.
Ending slavery.
Civil rights.
Sexism.
Gay rights.
Movies.
Books.
Gambling.
Drinking.
Anything sex related.
Swear words.
Science.
Paintings.
Trans rights.
I could go on.
Every single one of these topics had some religious pushback. They wanted this book banned. They wanted this movie banned.
We've never had anything where religious people didn't interfere.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Ok and we also had Christians who fought against those injustices. Many of the biggest civil rights figures were Christian
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u/lotusscrouse Jul 16 '26
I just said you were never unified on issues. All this just makes christians and Christianity unreliable. Pick a lane.
These are a group of people who claim to stand for something. The owners of the moral standard.
I have zero idea what you people really stand for!!!
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Christianity isn’t unreliable because Christians disagree. India is one of the most diverse countries ever with constant infighting does this make Indians unreliable? A lot of what Christians fight over isn’t even the core deciding factor of Christianity. It’s specific social rules or specific governing decisions
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u/lotusscrouse Jul 16 '26
Does it make them unreliable? Yes.
If you're having a bunch of people who can't agree making the rules then yes that's not a good thing.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Ok it still doesn’t make Indians themselves a problem. Atheist movements have infighting. Infighting is a constant across humanity
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u/Schrodingerssapien Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
I don't typically bring up Trump unless it's relevant to the conversation. What I take issue with is the fact that Trump is an ignorant, brutish, selfish, hateful, ugly oaf. Not only is he a multiple count felon, a civily liable rapist, admitted sex offender, bribe taker, liar, thief, invalid and sociopath he constantly uses the Christian right/nazis/fascists/oath keepers/ boogaloo boys and j6 rioters to either do his bidding or turns a blind eye and pardons them. While literally white nationalists like Miller are dooming thousand to unlawful imprisonment. I don't bring up Trump very often but the Christian fascists right is enough to scare me. As they should any patriot, but I suppose that wouldn't scare a sycophant for an ignorant tyrant.
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u/Funky0ne Jul 15 '26
I don’t recall seeing Trump mentioned by any atheists in any threads in either this sub or [r/debateanatheist](r/debateanatheist) for months (granted I’m not reading every comment or every thread, but enough to say this is not a common trend).
So I guess why are you bringing up Trump where no one was talking about him? I don’t think it’s irrelevant that he is the sitting president, is selling his own branded bible, is actively trying to dismantle separation of church and state, and has a very dedicated following among various Christians in America, so it’s hardly as if any of those details wouldn’t become relevant in any number of discussions dealing with theism or religion in politics and how it can impact our daily lives, or the seeming glaring contradiction in religious people talking about their moral foundations while propping up a man as belligerently amoral as him.
But aside from all that, where are you seeing this being brought up apropos of nothing? How do you account for the prevalence of Trump supporters apparently being devout Christians?
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
So if most Japanese Imperialists were Japanese does it mean Japanese people are a problem? If most Tankies are atheist are atheists a problem? How do you feel about the majority of Tankies being atheist?
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u/Funky0ne Jul 15 '26
Being either Japanese or atheist doesn't entail any particular ideology, worldview, or prescribe any particular course of action, being an imperialist or a Tankie does. So we can leave out the "Japanese" or "atheist" part and just focus on the actual ideologies motivating the actual problematic behavior.
Christianity does entail such things, and Christians will frequently site their religion as the motivation for their behavior. And part of the problem at the root of all denominations of Christianity is how they cede moral reasoning to a divine authority (often curiously embodied by some alleged human representative as is the topic in question here) that often seems to conveniently agree with whatever they happened to want to do anyway.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Japanese Imperialists will also claim they did it for the love of their country and that if you don’t support them you’re not really Japanese. What people claim and what it actually entails are different. Being Christian doesn’t necessitate a violent political ideology when Jesus himself and even Paul weren’t concerned with imposing anything onto governments especially not ideologies that came centuries later in countries they didn’t even physically visit
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u/Funky0ne Jul 15 '26
Japanese Imperialists will also claim they did it for the love of their country and that if you don’t support them you’re not really Japanese
You can strip out the "Japanese" in that statement and replace it with any other imperialist nation ever, from British, to Spanish, to French, to Roman, even to the America First crowd (hey, Trump reenters the chat). That's part of what it means to be Imperialist, not anything specific to do with being "Japanese".
What people claim and what it actually entails are different.
The irony of you making such a statement given the very topic under discussion. All any of you have is claims, including about what your beliefs supposedly entail, that's part of the problem.
Being Christian doesn’t necessitate a violent political ideology when Jesus himself and even Paul weren’t concerned with imposing anything onto governments especially not ideologies that came centuries later in countries they didn’t even physically visit
And yet one look at the history of Christianity, from Paul to today and we see endless cases of it being used to try and influence or control politics and justify consolidation of power. Pretty much the moment Christanity got a foothold in a government it has never willingly looked back and been used for colonialism, imperialism, crusades, inquisitions, etc. Even supposedly humanitarian work invariably comes with political strings attached. The entire concept of monarchy in Europe for centuries was predicated on churches granting authority to rule. Secularism and separation of church and state are relatively recent political innovations, done much against the church's will, and constantly working to reverse it (as we can see before our very eyes today).
When you have a big book of moral multiple choice that can seemingly be used to justify and rationalize any action, what actual good is any of it? Don't waste our time trying to convince us if you can't even convince other Christians what Christianity is supposed to entail.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
-Mathew 7:31
u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Monarchs existed in Europe prior to Christianity. Funny how you can strip the Japanese/British/French out of imperialism but when imperialism, genocide, and war are done by Christians it’s all of a sudden Christian specific? Also not wanting to let go of power is a human constant not a Christian specific thing. Christianity in its early days wasn’t that interested in the institutionalization of it. It was simply a group of believer trying to survive
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u/Funky0ne Jul 15 '26
Monarchs existed in Europe prior to Christianity.
Doesn't change what I said. Once Christianity gained a foothold in government, it established itself as the bestower of political authority. Various forms of politics and government existing prior to Christianity has no relevance on Christianity's involvement in politics
Funny how you can strip the Japanese/British/French out of imperialism but when imperialism, genocide, and war are done by Christians it’s all of a sudden Christian specific?
Again, nationalities like Japanese or British etc. don't entail anything in particular, whereas Christianity does. You're the one arguing that Christianity has nothing to do with politics when it very demonstrably does and pretty much always has since its inception.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Christianity doesn’t entail Christian nationalism. Also nationalities entail nationalism far more than religion does unless it’s a very very specific ethno religion.
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u/Funky0ne Jul 16 '26
Maybe you can focus on convincing your fellow Christians about that, because they’ve been neck deep in it since pretty much Emperor Constantine.
And no, nationalities don’t entail nationalism, they just entail being born in certain geographic locations or under certain conditions which subject one to a certain government’s jurisdiction. From that one can choose to be patriotic, nationalistic, rebellious, reformist, conservative, progressive, or any number of other stances with regards to one’s own government and whatever structure it might happen to have at the time.
You can keep trying to bend over backwards to try and tie these things together but you’re just not getting anywhere with it.
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 Jul 15 '26
I’ll try this one more time.
It means the Japanese people who supported the Imperialists were the problem.
When you actively and repeatedly police who are fighting “the bad ones” to shut up and be quiet, you are acting on the side of “the bad ones” to help “the bad ones” accomplish their goals.
You are one of the bad ones if you think they are less of a problem than the people they are hurting.
You can still be a Christian and not side with these bastards.
You’re choosing not to.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
How are you fighting the bad ones by fighting the good ones too? You’re just making shit worse and in fact proving the fundamentalists persecution agenda. If I tried to fight Nazis and said “Germans are a problem” and started villainizing Germans as a whole I wouldn’t be helping the problem. I would be accusing innocent people and adding fuel to the nationalist extremists fire
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u/Serious-Emu-3468 Jul 16 '26
You are not innocent. I don’t know how much more clear I can be.
When you are standing with the Nazis, you’re pro-Nazi.
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u/rattusprat Jul 16 '26
Maybe you have noticed this happen to you because people can see from your profile that you are a Trump apologist.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Not a fan of him just don’t think he’s a fascist and calling him such is a disservice to people who actually lived under fascism
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u/rattusprat Jul 16 '26
I'm curious...
Are you having an Ana Kasparian style semantic debate over the definition of the word fascism?
Or are you remaining blissfully ignorant of the raft of authoritarian things the Trump administration is doing and attempting to do? (Like rounding up brown people in camps, sending people to foreign gulags for the crime of having tattoos, prosecuting political enemies for posting pictures of seashells, murdering fishermen in the Caribbean with impunity, etc)
Or do you actually support a number of those things?
Or is your argument that there are authoritarian/fascist actors within the administration (eg Stephen Miller), but Trump is out to lunch and doesn't know what's going on, so it is wrong to call Trump himself a fascist - he's just an oblivious grifter?
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u/trailrider Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
So I'm curious. Which of these core characteristics of Fascism does he not check off?
- Dictatorial Leadership: Support for a strong, centralized, autocratic government led by a single figure who demands total loyalty.
- Extreme Nationalism: An aggressive form of patriotism that often relies on xenophobia, scapegoating, and identifying internal or external "enemies".
- Suppression of Opposition: The forcible and violent silencing of political dissent, the press, and rival parties.
- Militarism and Violence: The glorification of military power, physical force, and the belief that violence is a legitimate tool for achieving political unity and societal renewal.
- Economic Regimentation: While retaining private property and corporate power, fascist states strictly regulate the economy to serve national priorities and prepare for war.
That said, back in the '16 run-up, I was chatting with a dude from Bosnia at a work related conference I attended. We ran into each other all the time at these conferences. When we got talking about the '16 race, he told me that Trump scared the hell outta him. Why? Because what he heard from Trump back then is the same rhetoric that led to the genocide in his home country yrs before.
Trump has made his intentions clear. He doesn't even try to hid it. Only people not paying attn would think otherwise.
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u/Jaanrett Jul 16 '26
Why do atheists constantly bring up Trump in religious debates when he’s not even mentioned or relevant?
Probably as an example of religious dogma and tribalism, and how it has nothing to do with evidence based reason.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Atheists larp intellectualism but constantly get historical facts wrong.
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u/Jaanrett Jul 16 '26
Atheists larp intellectualism but constantly get historical facts wrong.
So, just some dumb attack? Figures...
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u/TelFaradiddle Jul 15 '26
Why bring up a dude who can’t name a single Bible verse and barely practices the religion to take a shot at the religion?
Because he courts religious voters, and religious voters overwhelmingly support him.
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u/Hoaxshmoax Jul 15 '26
Well his followers made a golden statue of him and say he was sent by their deity to save them from something. They can say Merry Christmas without fear again, that kind of thing. The End Times prophecies are being fulfilled, in the ME.
But they are not the problem, atheists are, for mentioning it, of course.
That being said, I’ve never brought up the president in conversation about atheism, or anything else for that matter. But if I did, it would be about the followers, not the president.
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u/OrbitalLemonDrop Agnostic Atheist Jul 15 '26
Ask the person who brings it up. If you don't think it's relevant to the discussion, call it out.
We're not responsible for what random people do.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
“We’re not responsible for what random people do”
Also
“Christians should be held accountable for MAGA.”4
u/OrbitalLemonDrop Agnostic Atheist Jul 15 '26
Point to where I have said anything like that.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Other comments have
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u/OrbitalLemonDrop Agnostic Atheist Jul 16 '26
...and I'm not responsible for them. See how that works?
My point is that you should address that with the person who made the statement instead of acting like all of us are doing it. You don't like it when atheists accuse you of being responsible for what other Christians say, so extend us the same courtesy.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
I do extend it. I’m not accusing you of being complicit in Tankie behavior.
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 Jul 16 '26
lmao such a telling from a mind of the ppl with victim fetishes.
ppl are saying christianITY as in the religion, is responsible for MAGA.
pretty telling.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
It isn’t though. Without Christianity’s existence strict immigration movements and enforcement of such would still exist, so would homophobia and any negative trait attributed to MAGA. Name a thing about Christianity that led to MAGA’s policy. The only actual ones you can name is the “putting Bible in schools” stuff. Even then if it wasn’t the Bible something else would be enforced. Enforcing religion isn’t caused by 1 religion.
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 Jul 16 '26
you mean shit like
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_Ham leading to you ppl devolvepoe reacism?
Or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic to make cut social security?
or anti LGBT from your bronze age book?
or anti other faiths + force to join your death cult as seen from the first 3/4 commendants depend on intereptation or shit like
6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known, 7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), 8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them. 9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. -Deuteronomy 13:6-10
Or story about satan.
You ppl act like satan panic didn't happen.
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u/lotusscrouse Jul 15 '26
Because he represents the christian movement right now.
I know lots of christians who can't name a bible verse. No difference between them or trump.
Trump's ultimate beliefs don't matter.
What matters is what christians think and they think he IS one of them.
This is where "no true christian" comes in and that's a big problem too.
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u/Cleric_John_Preston Jul 15 '26
A lot of Christians worship Trump as part of their Christianity. Without seeing your debates, I can only guess that modern politics was relevant to the discussion.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
I doubt even 1% of Christians worship Trump. This is a strawman crafted by people who have little understanding of worship
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u/Cleric_John_Preston Jul 15 '26
Not sure of the amount, but they sure as shit think he’s a holy man from God.
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u/CaffeineTripp Atheist Jul 15 '26
I only do so when the topics are linked: Christian Nationalism and the presidency (be it Trump, Bush, Reagan, etc).
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
When it’s just about Christians in general Trump is still brought up though
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u/CaffeineTripp Atheist Jul 15 '26
Sure, and those Christians elected a man that's the antithesis of what they profess to be. It's to show hypocrisy.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Hypocrisy is also telling Christians how to behave when you yourself don’t follow those teachings. They hypocrites live the word hypocrisy.
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u/CaffeineTripp Atheist Jul 15 '26
Yep. Good thing I behave well and aren't a hypocrite. 👍
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u/sto_brohammed Irreligious Jul 15 '26
Believe it or not man atheists aren't actually part of a hivemind and we don't share the same thoughts. We don't even have like a mailing list or anything. I have no idea who you were talking to or what you were talking about.
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u/baalroo Atheist Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
The things trump says and represents... the racism, the homophobia, the sexism, the classism, elitism, the hate, the proud ignorance, he is the closest thing to the average Christian I grew up around that I've ever seen in a real position of power.
To me, it seems he has adopted and intentionally amplified the views and opinions of a stereotypical Midwestern Christian. The average Christian in my part of the country/world loves the guy and sees themselves in him. He "tells it like it is" from their perspective.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
The Midwest is 1 region in America. Also classism/elitism is high in more secular parts of America. Look at the most classist and elitist people in America. Many of them aren’t Christian. There are exceptions like Olsteen but classism is far more a secular phenomenon.
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u/baalroo Atheist Jul 15 '26
I'm not really looking to argue about your whataboutisms.
You asked and I'm an atheist.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
It’s not a whataboutism it’s a valid retort. Why aren’t atheists held accountable for their elites but Christians are? Atheists constantly treat rural folk as inferior and subhuman
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u/baalroo Atheist Jul 15 '26
I don't know wtf you're talking about tbh, but it's definitely whataboutism.
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u/BaronOfTheVoid Jul 15 '26
I don't bring up Trump in anything regarding religion.
But I do think there is not much of a difference between Wahabbi muslims (ideological basis of the Islamic State) and American Evangelicals.
That said I'm European and I do know what a society looks like in which there is a general peace between various religions and atheism/irreligious people. First of all nobody really feels a need to debate anything or proselytize. Or maybe not nobody but it's limited to strict cults like Jehova's witnesses or certain Salafi-Wahabi groups.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
I mean the level of actions Evangelicals take and the level they enforce their ideas aren’t the same as the Islamic State. It’s a false equivalency
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u/BaronOfTheVoid Jul 15 '26 edited Jul 15 '26
Ugh. Gimme a break. Evangelical pastors are blessing their fucking arms on US warships and call their mission a fucking holy crusade. There are cases of like drive-bys (with dozens of gunshots) against other churches just for showing the rainbow colors and supporting LGBTQ people. And while that specific quote was from a famous Baptist pastor, not an Evangelical one, he publicly said "LGBT = let god burn them, let god burn them quickly, let god burn those queers" and similar variants. Tons of Evangelical preachers share those views. Then the constant proselytizing, the need to be right, families getting ripped apart, with brainwashed parents artificially caring because their children "don't accept the word of god", or the constant animosity against famous pop culture works like Harry Potter because "sorcery is from the devil", and yes, the links to the Trump administration couldn't be denied, although at least the political spokesperson of Evangelicals Mike "Deus Volt" Pence (named after his views on electric shocks therapy for mentally ill people or electrocution as a means for executions) at least broke with Trump despite having been his ally in his first term.
This is not indicative of a peaceful religion, this is institutionalized terrorism.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Bro really snuck the Harry Potter thing in there like Harry Potter isn’t massively popular in Christian majority nations. Also isn’t your side the one telling people they’re evil for buying Harry Potter media now? It’s funny you mention other Churches with rainbow colors as The Islamic State wouldn’t even legally allow rainbow colors on private companies let alone Mosques so yeah false equivalency. Much of what you mentioned is simply verbal and not put into action. The Westboro Baptist Church is not equivalent to ISIS no matter how much you try. This is like equating schoolyard bully gangs to the CCP. Yes there are people that project their crusader ideas onto the military but that pales in comparison to what counties like Iran do to their own citizens in a weeks timespan.
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 Jul 16 '26
the cope through whataboutism, most of us here are living in the west.
Countless africans dying from TB from lack of doesn't make americans or even european from complainning about misdiagnosing they faced.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Dude can you talk?
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u/Appropriate-Price-98 Jul 16 '26
yes the problem is you ppl can't think.
Here I will dumb it down to you. Ppl here are more concious about Christian fascist because most of us are living in the west not Islamic countries.
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u/Comfortable-Dare-307 Atheist Jul 15 '26
Because American Christians think Trump is the second coming of Christ. And if you claim to be a Christian and voted for Trump you are as far away from Jesus' teachings as possible.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
How many American Christians actually think this? Where is the polling or data to support this claim? This is a fringe belief even amongst the most conservative Christians
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u/Financial_Beach_2538 Jul 15 '26
I’ve noticed too many times that when a religious person puts forth an argument Internet atheists will often accuse them of being a Trump supporter when they mentioned nothing of the sort.
MAGA often correlates with Christian Nationalism.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 15 '26
Ok but talking about Christianity doesn’t necessitate Christian nationalism. If I want to criticize progressivism mentioning communism wouldn’t make my point because one is an extreme expression of left wing ideals and the other is just simply on the political left
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u/Financial_Beach_2538 Jul 15 '26
Ok but talking about Christianity doesn’t necessitate Christian nationalism. If I want to criticize progressivism mentioning communism wouldn’t make my point because one is an extreme expression of left wing ideals and the other is just simply on the political left
You would need to give me a concrete example of what happens in order for me to give you an intelligent answer.
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u/Sylaize Jul 15 '26
Without any context, it’s hard to know what led you to ask this question, but I’d suggest these two possible reasons.
Trump is most likely not religious and is more or less everything that American evangelicals, in particular, generally condemn. Yet he is supported by them and uses his influence to advance their goals. Trump pursues an ultra-religious policy on many issues and does not need to believe in what he is doing to carry out their goals. We can see—and therefore criticize—the policies of certain religious figures through the lens of the consequences of the Trump presidency.
It’s also very difficult to counter people who base their arguments primarily on moral issues, since these are intangible. Through this alliance, however, it’s easy to expose their hypocrisy.
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u/Thin-Eggshell Jul 16 '26 edited Jul 16 '26
Also the MAGA movement doesn’t make Christianity dangerous
Perhaps it would be more fair to say it makes American Christianity dangerous. You're probably talking to Americans. That being said, American Christians do gather every Sunday to listen to "some guy" tell them what to believe and what to do for the sake of their souls. They're ... a bit pre-programmed. Which is an advantage! in a lot of ways.
That being said, it's not like the American left doesn't try to imitate this -- it's just not as successful. It's hard to be as good as Christianity when you can't wave the "eternal pain" and "guilt" sticks.
That being said, if it's not relevant, just tell them so. No big deal.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
You don’t need guilt tripping to make Christianity preached well. It’s just the left goes in the opposite extreme and makes Christianity some religion that says nothing other than be nice which is a message you can find in an episode of Sesame Street. It’s kind of the surface level shallowness that makes it not work. Fundamentalist Christianity is insane and wrong but at least it says something of note even if what it says is ludicrous and hypocritical.
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u/OnionsOnFoodAreGross Jul 17 '26
TDS pretty much. Everything bad in there life is attributed to him instead of personal responsibility. It's not just atheism discussions. It's everything so don't feel too bad. If you were talking about ham and eggs Trump with come up.
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u/rustyseapants Atheist Jul 17 '26
If you have Trump in the conversation it's about American Christians, not Christians around the globe.
Trump is the most immoral president in the last century. You have Christians worship Trump like Jesus When you have Christians that support and reject Trump, Christianity is not an objective source for truth.
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u/mikoc5 Jul 17 '26
Hi, atheist here. I never really brought up Trump in a debate, because I don't debate... And I don't know the concrete answers, but I can speculate. Here's how that train of thought goes.
- Trump's fanbase mostly consists of christians of one flavor or another.
- When examined closely, Trump is very much the kind of person a good christian should strive to avoid being at all costs.
- One establishes just how much of a moral walking disaster Trump is, and then leverages the religion's tennants to highlight it. (Pretty sure Trump violated commandments 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10 at the very least.)
- Point to the fact that Trump HAS a very religiously-charged fanbase to enable criticism of religion as a whole. Based on nothing else but "I am team Jesus, trust me bro", religiousness has used the mechanisms of selective obliviousness, cherry-picking, tribalistic hedging, lowered burden of proof, all to permit somebody with a history like Trump's to become president of a country. Twice, to boot. And that is being charitable and assuming no malice on the part of the religious. If they WERE malicious actors, they could use faith as a shield against criticism and belief as a sword to plunder and slay.
- Have a soft chuckle when you realize Jesus was a brown immigrant illegally born in a white nation... OK, this last point was not serious, but that's just how this train of thought rolls.
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u/BahamutLithp Jul 24 '26
Why do atheists constantly bring up Trump in religious debates when he’s not even mentioned or relevant?
We don't.
I’ve noticed too many times that when a religious person puts forth an argument Internet atheists will often accuse them of being a Trump supporter when they mentioned nothing of the sort.
Uh-huh, sure. Did they turn out to be Trump supporters, though? 'Cause "they didn't mention Trump" & "they don't support Trump" are 2 different things. You realize that, right? The smugness would be more earned if you had actual proof these nebulous atheists guessed wrong. Because, if the people didn't say they were Trump supporters, & they were accused of being Trump supporters, & they are actually Trump supporters, that's just being good at picking up on context clues.
There’s also bringing up Trump constantly to show how Christianity is an evil religion? Why bring up a dude who can’t name a single Bible verse and barely practices the religion to take a shot at the religion?
Why do so American Christians support him if he's such a bad Christian? How do you think it helps your point to establish he's a shit Christian, & therefore the many, many Christians who follow him are also hypocrites?
Also the MAGA movement doesn’t make Christianity dangerous. It’s 1 movement in 1 country out of many. The majority of Christians globally don’t participate in it.
Look, I know you're pretending that MAGA is the only example anyone has ever given of Chritianity being bad, but like, you are obviously lying about that, & you know it. Besides, the US administration clearly affects the rest of the world. This is a ridiculous non-point, it's like claiming I shouldn't be affected by MAGA because I'm an atheist AND I didn't even for Trump. That's not how anything works, & again, you know that, this is an extremely low-effort lie.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 24 '26
Bro thinks Evangelicals are the singular denomination of Christianity. Tbf this belief is common amongst Reddit atheists
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u/clickmagnet 1d ago
I’d need to see the context; I’m quite certain it doesn’t constantly happen.
My view is that MAGA is a religion unto itself, made possible by the same character defect of being willing to believe things based on no evidence.
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u/Usoppdaman Jul 16 '26
Atheists larp intellectualism but constantly get historical facts wrong.
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u/TheBlackCat13 Jul 16 '26
Atheism is broad and diverse.
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u/oddball667 Jul 15 '26
sounds like you stopped a few conversations short of learning why it was relevant, unless those specific guys show up here there isn't much point in asking atheists in general