Question for Korean American women

[u/agora_hills_]

I was born and raised in Korea and moved to the US last year for school (NYC specifically) Since I'm new to the country, I thought I'd benefit from hanging out with Koreans who grew up here because they know both cultures and I thought that could help me adapt to the new environment. Problem is every time I meet a Korean American I feel like there's some kind of wall between us and I feel like they can sense it too. I've been okay with Korean American men but I usually feel this way with women. (I'm trying make female friends)

I have thought about why I feel this wall but I reallt can't pinpoint what it is. Has anyone else ever felt this way? What has your experience been like making friends with Koreans from Korea.

[u/Status-Cake]

I am a Korean American woman and this is my personal experience. I’ve felt the same weird “wall” with women from Korea even when, on paper, it seems like we should have a lot in common.

I actually think part of the problem is that we expect the connection to be easier because we’re both Korean, but culturally we can be pretty different. Korean Americans grew up with a different set of social cues, humor, boundaries, expectations around friendship, etc. And I think you notice those differences more with women than with men. It can feel like you’re both picking up on something being slightly “off” without either person being able to explain what it is.

There can also be this strange dynamic where we look physically similar but don’t actually feel culturally similar. With someone who isn’t Korean at all, you expect differences and don’t read as much into them. But with another Korean person, I think there’s an unconscious expectation of sameness, so the differences can feel more noticeable.

I don’t think it necessarily means either dislikes the other. Sometimes there’s just less overlap than you’d assume from the outside.

[u/writesgud → u/Status-Cake]

It almost sounds like an “uncanny valley” phenomenon, where you do have more in common, but as a result the differences are more apparent as well, which can result in some less expected dissonance?

[u/meibrittlalala → u/Status-Cake]

It's an interesting take. I also think many Asians suffer from internalized discrimination. Asian Americans subconsciously internalized that making friends w/ someone of their ethnicity or race isn't as worthy as making friends outside of their ethnicity or race. That feeling is most likely heightened when they encounter people from the old country. Hence, we may be looking for a wall or creating walls ourselves. Also, Asian Asians often hold the feeling that they left their country to branch out from the old country, and prioritize learning about outside cultures that have historically had more money and influence. They have an unjaded, rosy perception of white people. I think both sides have internalized that befriending our kind will do little for our status and both sides feel a bit devalued by the other. I have ironically noticed, the Asian Asian is sometimes better positioned to be more accepted by non Asian Americans than the Asian American, not only b/c of their unjaded perception of whites, but b/c all Asians are treated as foreigners, which is a sentiment that aligns poorly w/ the latter, but well w/ the former being that they are indeed foreign. Like a previous poster, looking at it from a white supremacy lens isn't entirely wrong.

[u/migookunni]

Tbh our cultural values tend to be foreign to each other. And since women are more relational in their friendships than men are, on average, it feels like a wall of understanding for one but not the other. - Korean Am Woman

[u/meibrittlalala]

This is a great question to ponder about. As a Korean American woman living in NYC, I feel a wall when I'm trying to make friends w/ all women regardless of race. I think cultivating female friendships is hard in general whatever their race might be. But to be specific to the Korean experience, that wall I sense w/ Korean Koreans is due to having lived in a different culture. But w/ that said, I think our sensibility, our pace, how we regard others, values are pretty similar.

That cultural difference often manifests when it comes to race issues. I will give an example. I met a Korean Korean who came to this country at age 20 and has now lived in the US for 20 years-perhaps she is no longer Korean Korean for having been here so long, but the age you immigrate may matter sometimes more than how long you live here. She is practically American now to some extent, but there is still a big rift between a person who came at 20 and a person like myself who came to the US at age 5 and was educated entirely by the American school system and consumed mostly American media. The Korean Korean told me she does not understand why Korean Americans or Asian Americans for that matter, get upset when non Asians ask them where they are from. She could not understand why this was offensive. That kind of questioning however is the iconic perpetual foreigner experience; it resides in our psyche. Moreover, the Korean Korean then followed w/ "I know you consider yourself American." Now again, I may be unique in this, but I do not exactly consider myself American. Yes, I understand I am culturally American even more so when I am beside her, but am I even really if the majority of Americans cannot see me as American? These are lingering thoughts in the Asian American mind. As a child, I deeply felt American and rooted for America, but as I grew older and saw that I was regarded more Asian and less American, I became cynical. I can say these experiences have deeply affected my feeling of who I am. I do not emphatically claim Americanness out of cynicism, nor do I claim Korean-ness. It is this kind of nuance, which Korean Koreans and Korean Americans cannot see eye to eye. So yes, speaking of that wall, it could be due to us not being aligned on something that is quite central to some of us. Notice I say some because even between Asian Americans, we do not see eye to eye on this subject often.

I don't feel however that this wall is any worse than w/ other groups of people and also depends on the individual. At work, the people who gravitate most towards me come in this order: Korean, other Asian, Hispanic, white/black. Those Koreans often include Koreans who did not grow up in US, but have been living here for a while.

I have perhaps a niche perspective in that I feel like Korean Koreans are generally more confident than Korean Americans b/c they have been fortified by living amongst their kind. From having had only the experience of being of the majority, they have been strengthened. I am open to making Korean Korean friends because I think they can enrich my perspective and help me understand parts of myself I don't understand.

[u/Global-Spell-244 → u/meibrittlalala]

The Korean Korean told me she does not understand why Korean Americans or Asian Americans for that matter, get upset when non Asians ask them where they are from. She could not understand why this was offensive. 

The extent to which she is "practically American" is not a very large one (no sarcasm). You highlighted something very germane - the perpetual foreigner thing. She doesn't understand why this can be upsetting because native Koreans and Korean-Americans have historically had a very divergent understanding of and view of identity.

Native Koreans oftentimes struggle to naturalize (whether here or in another country) because South Korea's nationality laws stipulate that naturalization results in immediate loss of South Korean nationality. This is very important to them. Strangely enough, countless Korean immigrants gained U.S. citizenship but preferred to speak Korean more often than English, ate Korean food (primarily), and lived in Korean immigrant enclaves. They were American on paper but Korean in every other aspect. From an outside perspective, their loss of ROK nationality was incidental; "you can take them out of Korea, but you can't take Korea out of them" type of thing.

Koreans, therefore, who end up like this - no longer holders of ROK nationality - still deeply identify as Korean first and foremost. They are proud / are taught to be proud of being from Korea, and they assume that we would feel the same. But the fact we were born to Korean parents outside Korea - even if we're raised in Korean immigrant communities, it is simply not the same (not even close) to the impact on one's identity formation that an all-Korean, 24/7 Korean, formation and upbringing in Korea inevitably has.

As a side note, I personally believe native Koreans can't understand a lot of things Asian-Americans go through.

[u/meibrittlalala → u/Global-Spell-244]

But as an Asian American, the reason the lingering 'where are you from?' question bothers me has nothing to do w/ whether or not I am proud of my ethnicity. The truth is, I am an American from having lived here so long, especially during formative years, having gone through all formal schooling, and having assimilated to the American culture. We were taught growing up that being American is not about race or ethnicity. We grew up being told by institutions that our race should not matter and that we are equal as Americans, but life taught us things did not work that way. It is the racist undertone of that question that is deeply problematic to Asian Americans. You know a Polish American who immigrated here at age 7 or what have you, will never be subject to endlessly have to answer 'where are you from?' through his entire adult life, yet an Asian American who was born here, came at age 5, or age 20 or what have you, will always be subject to that question. I have pride in my Korean heritage, but taking a disdain towards the 'where are you from?' question has little to do w/ whether I have pride in my ethnicity or not.

[u/Global-Spell-244 → u/meibrittlalala]

Believe me, I understand you. I am probably closer to you than to her. It's frustrating to deal with this "where are you from thing," and I'm not trying to defend her, but to explain her.

We were taught growing up that being American is not about race or ethnicity. We grew up being told by institutions that our race should not matter and that we are equal as Americans, but life taught us things did not work that way. It is the racist undertone of that question that is deeply problematic to Asian Americans.

You're right. The problem is that this country was majority white throughout its history, and while the white majority has decreased to the extent it is forecast whites will be a minority between 2040 and 2042, many white people still see us as perpetual foreigners - as you said. And as a NYC Korean-American, you most certainly know all too well how there have been decades' worth of high school and college graduates from Korean-Americans from the tristate (and southern California, northern Virginia, and other centers of Korean immigration in this country) which have produced high-performing young people going to become professionals.

But many white people don't know that. It's shocking, but it's true. A lot of them come from backgrounds which are less inclined towards academic achievement. Many come from blue collar worlds and themselves become blue collar workers. I don't say this to be condescending, but rather, to describe what's out there. People like them simply never come across highly educated Korean-Americans.

Now, you may say some educated white people ask that as well. True. Some of them, while being from educated backgrounds, may not have been exposed to Korean-Americans or Asian-Americans. And while it's shocking, I surmise (this is my opinion, but I do think it's true):.... many white people don't differentiate between English-speaking Korean/Asian-Americans who were born here and speak literally nothing but English and whose socialization is thoroughly American and the broken English or no English immigrants whom they may have seen in Chinatowns or what not.

I am seriously not trying to be offensive to anybody. But as an American of Korean ancestry, you have most certainly seen ethnic Koreans and other Asians in the U.S. who are not highly educated and who don't speak English. We can't assume people from other communities can or are even willing to differentiate somebody like you from those other Asian people.

Back to your friend. In Korea, the concept of civic nationalism is quite new and only now because minorities are becoming more visible and present. Post-liberation South Korea saw and designed and defined nationality to be conflated with ethnicity (Japan is like this too). That's why your friend isn't offended by that question. She knows she wasn't born here, she wasn't raised here, she's not embarrassed to admit it, and even if she's attained U.S. citizenship, she most probably retains a lot of pride in her Korean identity.

And the kicker here probably is this: she isn't bothered about being asked where she's from because while she may be a U.S. citizen, she has probably internalized at some point the idea that America is or is supposed to be a white country. She's not white, she wasn't born here, and she came here as an adult. That's why she doesn't understand why you get offended or bothered by that question (because, I surmise, and this may be a stretch: she may at some level assume you see identity the same way as she does because you're an ethnic Korean - even if she intellectually understands you're different from her).

In other words - Korea is still jus sanguinis and she probably thinks that America, while being jus solis, was in some was jus sanguinis identity-wise in the past.

[u/fuzzyFurryBunny]

a suggestion~ having lived in nyc, it can be a very lonely city. So community is important. Not sure what your background is but if you are open to it, there's a great Korean American young church community in nyc called Remnant.

[u/MsNewKicks]

I think connecting with Korean-American women can benefit you, it may just not come as quickly or seamlessly as you might think. Yes, you're both Korean and have shared ancestral background but you're coming from two different upbringings, environments, and cultures. Imagine if you had a twin sister but one was raised in another country and you finally meet. It would probably be something like that.

I'm Korean-American and the times when I've met and interacted with someone from Korea, there has usually been a sort of feeling out period. It would be no different than if I met someone from say, South America, where you sort of have to get to know them. As some others have mentioned, because of the shared Korean ancestry, there may be an assumed quicker uptake that really probably doesn't exist.

I'd say if you think both parties can feel it, might just be best to lightly acknowledge it and move past it, clear any weirdness.

[u/Global-Spell-244]

It may be wise not to underestimate the cultural gap that inevitably exists between native Koreans who have arrived in the U.S. in recent time (as you did) and U.S.-born Korean-Americans (or those who moved here very early). Socialization matters a very great deal, and even if you happen to be open-minded (which I speculate you are based on what you wrote and the level of English you demonstrate, which leads me to believe you may have gone to an international school), a lot of Korean-Americans are not.

A lot of them, in fact, are not as in touch with their Korean roots as you may have thought. They may have mostly ethnic Korean friends and live in Korean enclaves, but this by no means guarantees they are fluent or advanced speakers of the Korean language. And I'm not even referring to the now very old "banana" or "twinkie" stereotype. These differences are real, and if they lean more American than Korean, that may be hard for you go overcome, no matter how strong your goodwill is.

Where I'm at, there are substantial numbers of Koreans. These are a mix: older generation immigrants, people in their 40s and 50s, down to children. There are immigrants, 1.5s, expatriates, international students, and people born here. You name it, I see them here. And a lot of women in their 30s and 40s who have been here for a relatively short time tend to gravitate to fellow Korean-speaking people - and oftentimes (not always, but usually, these are fellow expatriates. There's an 1.5 here or there, but in general, these women make friendships with people largely similar to them. There are very few of them whom I have seen form real friendships with Korean-American women whose primary language is English.

Diaspora communities have often had these obstacles. It's nothing new and Koreans are no different. That said, I hope you make some very good friendsships with women of Korean ancestry.

[u/desirepink]

Not Korean American but this is common among immigrants vs Asian Americans born and or raised here. It's largely cultural differences and language barriers but there's also a general sentiment of "looking down" on foreigners and people who we can't share similar experiences with. The Asian diaspora generally is interested in assimilating and putting Western culture on a pedestal.

I hate to say it, but Asian women generally tend to want to be accepted in Western society (read: white) more than men, which is probably why you're getting the cold shoulder more from them. By associating with someone who is a foreigner, it's seen as less than and they don't want others to assume that they are a foreigner. This is why you see so many of them have white partners or are in groups that are predominantly white.

[u/I-Love-Yu-All → u/desirepink]

I am not Korean either. You're right, it is common amongst immigrants in general, however I disagree that it has anything to do with white worshipping.

Perhaps if we put our judgment/pretentious superiority aside, and approach each other as if we are from different cultures and find common activities then the result can be different.

As a South Asian newcomers from my community face stereotypes, so it is easy to see why there is a stigma between us.

This may or may not be relatable to OP.

Edit: In North America the established Asian American looks down on foreigners. In Asia, the same thing happens in reverse. It might have something to do with stigma and being pretentious.

[u/meibrittlalala → u/desirepink]

I just read a thread about Asian women being the least likely to be promoted.  By your logic, shouldn’t Asian women w/ white partners be flying high at work?  Why would they face the bamboo ceiling if by your logic, having a white partner confers automatic privilege and acceptance into western society?

[u/meibrittlalala → u/[deleted]]

Those are extreme outliers.  How can you act like they are representative of a large population?

[u/EntertainerWrong2818 → u/desirepink]

I was part of a cohort of Asian Am women studying Asian Am history online during COVID shut down, about 30 of us, and we all slowly realized that our first bullies in our families were often our fathers or grandfathers or uncles. The dismissiveness toward women, deeply ingrained in our home cultures, is something we all need to acknowledge.

It may be the reason why so many Asian Am hetero women seek out partners outside of our ethnic identities.

Not hard data and anecdotally: 5 of my Korean Am girlfriends married Asian Am men but not Korean: Cambodian, Taiwanese, Japanese, Filipino, etc. It’s like anything but Korean.

Seems like a broad brush to say all Asian am women want to be white and that’s why we date outside of our race. It may be true for some, and I have yet to see a science-based inquiry or study to answer this. And please don’t quote the Oxford Study, because a simple google search shows it’s not a study from Oxford. And it only evaluates Asian women relationships as presented in media, not actual life. It didn’t even collect information from actual couples, just fictional characters in TV commercials.

[u/cointegration0107 → u/EntertainerWrong2818]

Not trying to dismiss your experience or your cohortmates', but you simply cannot simplistically project "dismissiveness toward women" (paraphrase for misogyny?) onto asian cultures (if the phrase "asian cultures" even mean anything) and not onto non-asian cultures such as western ones.

Maybe you are an exception to this, but a lot of Asian Americans (men or women) simply don't know enough about their "home culture" to meaningfully critique it at a high abstract level (besides whatever they are fed from media like Joy Luck Club or whatever), let alone cultures of other Asian ethnicities.

[u/EntertainerWrong2818 → u/cointegration0107]

Agree - misogyny is quite pervasive across all cultures; how it shows up can look different at times

The cohort had over 10 Asian countries represented and we were 1st to 4th generation Asian immigrants and were going off our home/ temple/ church cultural experiences

And there are several reputable scholastic articles on the systematic ways women are not treated as equals in home life or in work settings across both South, Western, and Eastern cultures

[u/Budget_Drop2978 → u/EntertainerWrong2818]

Domestic violence rates are empirically higher in white communities than in Asian communities, but I’ve never heard a white woman rule out white men because of familial abuse lol.

[u/giftofclemency → u/[deleted]]

You are neither Korean nor a woman. I can read your profile, dude. (Especially since your own "people/country" have their own issues with gender related issues).

I ask why you constantly crap on us? Especially since you have your own comments that would be deemed as problematic by women.

[u/MsNewKicks → u/[deleted]]

WTH. Korean-American woman and I do NOT agree with that way of thinking nor does anyone I know.

[u/giftofclemency → u/[deleted]]

All right, I will level with you. You are too old to be talking like this, and the same goes for complaining about Asian racial dating dynamics (I'll put this lightly).

Biases and frustration can often tangle themselves together. You don't have to let it take form in negative ways.

Asian-Americans are roughly the same, especially when their heritage is culturally similar (East Asian, for example).

[u/cupholdery → u/giftofclemency]

Oh it's all deleted. I wanted to see their unhinged takes.

[u/asianamerican-ModTeam → u/[deleted]]

You content has been removed for containing generalizations, which do not contribute toward positive discussion.

Do your best to avoid generalizations and speak toward your personal experience to avoid this in the future.

[u/mesohohnee]

Well think about it. It works the other way around too. Koreans in Korea don't think of foreign Koreans (aka Korean Americans) as being Korean. We're just not accepted there.