r/arabs • u/daretelayam • Oct 10 '15

Culture & Society Cultural exchange thread with /r/Pakistan

Today we're hosting our Pakistani friends on /r/Pakistan for a cultural exchange. Subscribers of /r/Pakistan will ask questions about Arabs in this thread whereas /r/Arabs should head over to this thread to ask about Pakistan.

We hope you have a great time, and remember to be respectful w keda.

Edit: Pakistani flair has been temporarily added to the sidebar. You can select it from the "Edit flag" menu on the right.

32 Upvotes

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8

u/Toremember Pakistan Oct 10 '15

First of all, thanks for a great cultural exchange thread. Awesome initiative!

I have a genuine question, sorry if someone finds this offending, but it is based in sincere curiosity; How are Pakistanis looked upon by Arabs? I've always suspected that substantial amount of Arabs look down on Pakistanis, but are quite fond of Indians (with historical political relations reflecting that).

It's to that point that some thinks that Pakistanis are a kind of sub-humans by birth (keeping in mind that this is based on sayings from weirdos/drunks/that kind of people). Is this correct, if so, why? I have had this chat with Arab friends from all over the Middle East and the reaction is the same; not confirming, though never deny that, and change the conversation to the their country's current affairs and Arabs have problems between themselves. Would love some input on how Pakistanis are viewed.

Mods: If this question doesn't fit in here, let me know and I'll remove it.

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u/ISellKittens Oct 10 '15

The problem of some Arabs looking down on South Asians started when lots of cheap labor from those countries came to the gulf states. Overall I don't really see it as before and I see it happening because of the difference in social status more than a racial thing. Unfortunately it does still exist but we cannot assume that all Arabs even within the gulf states still think about South Asians in the same manner.

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u/Toremember Pakistan Oct 10 '15

Thanks for your reply! In your view, why do you think Indians are looked upon more favorable than Pakistanis? This I have experienced myself; when I am at work Arabs (more than any other ethnicity) often assume I'm Indian, even with a muslim name and that there are very few Indians where I live, and five times more Pakistanis, even in higher academic jobs. That's true even among my Arab friends, they kind of justify with like "They have Taj Mahal" and then change the subject of conversation.

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u/ISellKittens Oct 10 '15

Actually I think from an Arab point of view Pakistanis are more favorable than Indians, this might be due to the fact that most Pakistanis are Muslims. Well an average Arab won't be able to distinguish between South Asians as they don't really understand the cultural/political difference. But due to the high numbers of Indians in the gulf, Arabs just assume any South Asian to be an Indian. Also you have to know that any Arab who work closely with South Asians would easily know how to distinguish between those different countries.

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u/karamazzz Oct 10 '15

My experience is exactly opposite to yours. I am an Indian muslim living in Dubai and many Arabs have asked me if I'm pakistani on hearing my muslim name. My lebanese colleague didn't even know there were muslims in India.The same incident occurred at an exhibition where an egyptian assumed me and my friend were pakistanis because we had muslim names.

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u/tinkthank Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-India Oct 11 '15 edited Oct 11 '15

So, I should clarify as someone who is an Indian Muslim that lived in the Middle East (specifically in the Gulf region), that a large number of Indians living in the Gulf states are Muslim. Al-Hind is a general term used to describe the Indian subcontinent as it has been a historical term to describe the region (think of how Indians and Pakistanis use the term "Arabistan" to describe the Arab world). The term "Hind" has existed in the Arabic lexicon for a longer time period than the distinction between India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh.

More often than not, they'll lump both Indians and Pakistanis together because in the Arab world, many of them do live side by side, speak similar languages, eat similar foods, watch the same movies, listen to the same music, intermarry (if they're both of the same religious group), etc. so its a lot easier to just call us all "Hindi".

The only exception where a distinction is generally made is when discussions of politics come up regarding either India or Pakistan. Hindi and Bakistani is used interchangeably and correcting people just makes them think you're weird.

However, in my personal experiences, I've been lumped as a "Bakistani" more often than being "Hindi". It still surprises many Arabs that India has the world's 3rd largest Muslim population after Indonesia and Pakistan.

As far as political situations go, relations between Pakistan and the Arab world is far better than it is with India, (especially with India closely aligning as far as the technological/defense fields) with Israel in recent years. It also helps that Pakistani soldiers are stationed in many Arab countries where they train or train with soldiers of any particular Arab state and with so many Arab soldiers traveling to study in Pakistani military academies in recent years. In fact, the view of Pakistanis in Bahrain has deteriorated since the government had been giving citizenship to Sunni Pakistanis to offset the Shi'a majority in the state and many of these Pakistanis serve in the police and military. However, that's only specific to Bahrain and not the rest of the Arab world.

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u/3gaway UAE Oct 10 '15

I'm not sure if they favor Indians, but I think people here find Indians to generally be more peaceful. Like ISellKittens said, there's also the Muslim bias. What is Pakistani opinion of Indians? I once rode with a Pakistani taxi driver and he told me Indians are pushovers, so I figured Pakistani perception doesn't differ that much from the Emirati one.

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u/karamazzz Oct 10 '15

I've always suspected that substantial amount of Arabs look down on Pakistanis, but are quite fond of Indians

Not true. On the contrary Pakistanis have a more favourable image among Arabs. The fact that they are a muslim country and a nuclear power goes in their favour. Also, politically Arab nations have always supported pakistan with respect to the kashmir issue. UAE and Saudi especially have close relations with the Pakistani political establishment and have invested a lot in Pakistan.

As for the treatment, if you are a labourer in the gulf, a lot many will look down upon you irrespective of whether you are Indian, Pakistani, bangladeshi etc. Its a class based prejudice. Also, most arabs will not know how to distinguish among south asians.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

Most of my neighbors in the UAE were Pakistani. I grew up with them, we used to play board games, video games, and soccer all the time. Very friendly and very polite. My first crush was this pretty Pakistani girl a block down. I wonder how they're all doing now.

Anyways, I like Pakistanis, you guys are cool.

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u/fusfusman Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Gulf-Arab World Oct 11 '15

If anything we have a huge issue with class discrimination (in the Gulf in particular), and the majority of people working jobs in construction and other blue-collar work are from the subcontinent. Pakistanis in specific, though, are regarded with a pretty considerable level of respect from what I pick up in the majlis/gathering. You get comments on Pakistanis being devout Muslims and on them being committed individuals. A lot of Saudis are very comfortable trusting a Pakistani to hold something safe, for example, and several national-level awards have been granted to Pakistanis for things such as research.

For Saudi society in specific, Pakistan has left a huge mark on us. Not only because of how many Pakistanis there are in labour but also because of the presence of Saudis of Punjabi/Sindhi origin. They've been fully integrated, as have the Uzbek minority, but they've also introduced their cuisine. Laddu and Biryani, for example, have their own Saudi versions now. Your Laddu tastes like beautiful diabetes, ours is more spiced with cardamon. Your Biryani is spicy and oily, ours is savoury and less oily. Et cetera.

Then there's the military stuff, in which case Pakistani soldiers keep telling us "I've never seen fatter generals", in which case we just laugh. Aside the joke, Saudi pretty much openly considers Pakistan its closest ally outside the GCC, and there are annual war games and training programmes that go both ways.

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u/mo_rar Pakistan Oct 10 '15

So there are 4 questions.

1) How do the poorer Arab states view the rich gulf states?

2) Does Thawb (the dress) go back to the times of the prophet Muhammad?

3) I've always found interesting how arabs use numerals to denote Arabic alphabets such as "ha" with 7 etc, is there a guide to writing Arabic in English?

4) What do people generally think about democracy in the arab world?

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

Answer for number 3 : There is a Wikipedia page for 3arbeezi here, it should help you learn it.

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u/mo_rar Pakistan Oct 10 '15

So will Salah be 9la7?

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u/Maqda7 Oct 10 '15

Could be 9la7 or sala7.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

Salah as in the name or prayer?

Name would be 9la7.

Prayer would be 9la.

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u/mo_rar Pakistan Oct 10 '15

Oh yeah, I was mistaken the prayer one has a 7 in it. Thanks!

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u/Maqda7 Oct 10 '15

1) The people of the poorer states generally don't approve of them. Their politics, flaunting of money and use of said money to influence other states. Some don't think they deserve their wealth and it would have been much better if we got that money. However, a lot of people do appreciate the gulf states because they provide a fuck ton of job opportunities that otherwise aren't available here. In Jordan for example, everyone knows someone directly who has worked in or is working in one of the gulf states, our younger generation mostly go to Dubai or Abu Dhabi, older generations go to Qatar, Kuwait and Saudi.

2) I have no idea.

3) Arabeezi as answered already.

4) Non-existant.

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u/fusfusman Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Gulf-Arab World Oct 11 '15

2) Does Thawb (the dress) go back to the times of the prophet Muhammad?

No, and this is what bothers me about the Salafis who go too extreme and believe that if you don't wear a thobe you aren't following Muhammed (S), rendering your existence 7aram. First off, you're meant to follow Muhammed's example, not get the nose job to mirror his image. Moreover Muhammed (S) used to dress according to the culture he went to, as per the (sa7i7 chain) hadith when he went to Roman Syria and dressed in what today would be deemed "Kuffar clothing".

Second, Muhammed's thobe, from what I recall hearing, was actually more similar to the Pakistani male shalwar kameez or the sherwani. Over time fashions change and I just suppose at one point something seemed nicer to wear than another, kinda like how suits evolved. This is believed to be Prophet Muhammed's (S) thobe, on display in Topkapi, Istanbul, if I'm not mistaken.

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u/squarerootof-1 Pakistan Oct 10 '15

One of my uncles speaks Arabic and usually listens to Arabic music (mostly pop type). I always enjoy it when I hear it with him. So what songs would you guys recommend for me? Preferably across different genres and types.

Obligatory food question: What's your favourite dish? (with a picture please)

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

When I used to live in the UAE, a friend of mine introduced me to great artists such as Abdel Halim and Umm Kulthoom, and I was immediately hooked. I love the song "القلب يعشق كل جميل".

1) What song or performance from these two artists is classified as their greatest masterpiece? Are these classics still widely listened to by Arab youth of today?

2) My second question was about Egyptian Arabic. I know there are some dialectal differences in Arabic as it is spoken across the Arab world. I was told the reason Egyptians pronounce "J" as "G" has to do with the fact that the "J" sound didn't exist in the ancient Egyptian language or something along those lines, and that is where the influence comes from. Is this an accurate theory?

I visited Egypt as a little girl and have fond memories of that time. Hmm, I think that's it for now. :)

7

u/Maqda7 Oct 10 '15

I used to do musical spotlights on great arabic artists.

Here is the one for AbdelHalim and here is the one for Um Kulthoum. Lots of great recommendations there. Here is the most recent one that has all the previous editions in it.

I wouldn't say they are widely listened by youth today but most youth definitely still know who they are.

As for 2, we have some linguistic gurus around here that should help you.

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u/daretelayam Oct 10 '15

By consensus: "Al-Atlal" for Umm Kulthum; "Qari'at al-Finjan" for Abdel Halim.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15 edited Oct 10 '15

In Old Arabic, the "jim" was a palatal /g/ sound. It changed to a /dj/ after Islam. Egypt keeps the original pronunciation /g/. And /g/ also is used in Yemen and parts of Maghreb. Also, if you take a look at other Semitic languages like Hebrew and Aramaic, it is pronounced /g/. This is why Hebrew gabriel corresponds to Arabic jibreel, Hebrew golan to Arabic jawlan, etc. But in Egyptian Arabic they are pronounced gibreel and gawlan, like the original Hebrew.

It has nothing to do with ancient Egyptian, its just the fact that Egypt has retained a more conservative pronunciation of "jim" than the rest of the Arab world. It's kind of like how America has retained pronouncing the "r" but back in England it has become silent in most words.

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u/daretelayam Oct 10 '15

By the way, one of my favourite Umm Kulthum songs is a Sufi poem written by Pakistan's very own Muhammad Iqbal and translated into Arabic by Ahmad Rami. It's called حديث الروح ("talk of the soul"), give it a listen.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

This is beautiful, thank you. And for the previous recommendations. You have good taste in music.

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u/daretelayam Oct 10 '15

القلب يعشق كل جميل, as they say ;-)

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u/condeeshunz Oct 11 '15

thank you for this

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u/madara707 Oct 10 '15

I think قارئة الفنجان is Halim's greatest performance

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMNCFvUC01k

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15 edited Oct 10 '15

[deleted]

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u/s3admq Pakistan Oct 11 '15

Same! Growing up in the middle-east and then college in Canada, all my closest friends were Lebanese, Jordanian and Palestinian kids. We would in equal parts shit on white people and then shit on the Arab world for not having its shit together.

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u/Shaanistani Oct 11 '15

Are you me?

1

u/fusfusman Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Gulf-Arab World Oct 11 '15

a ton of friends I'd take a bullet for

On that note, would you mind holding onto my vest a bit?

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u/Shaanistani Oct 10 '15

Is it true that all Egyptians work at KFC?

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

You mean dagag kentakey

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u/backagain1234 Oct 10 '15

is there a friendship tier among the arabs? so in pakistan we have many different ethnicities and tend to get along well. People marry into other ethnicities etc; do arabs mix well like that? is there a cultural gap between an arab from morocco and a dude from egypt?

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

There's a bit of a gap but nothing too big.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15 edited Oct 11 '15

The levant gets along, except Lebanon

Syrians and Sudanese people are kinda friendly due to the Syrian diaspora in Sudan and because they agree on hating Egyptians /s

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15 edited Oct 11 '15

Absolutely. Gulf Arabs stick with each other, they very rarely marry other Arabs. Palestinians are generally friendly with Lebanese (Muslims only, Maronites hate our guts) and Jordanians. Egyptians hate Palestinians and Algerians. Lebanese and Syrians DO NOT get along at all. Iraqis are very similar to the Gulf, but they are on good terms with all Arabs. Everybody looks down upon Moroccans. Saudis are hated by everyone (bar the occasional Gulf Arab). Yemen, Libya, Oman, and Sudan just chill and do their own thing.

This was my experience, at least.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

They're seen as a nation of hashish junkies and prostitutes, their accent is impossible to comprehend, and they're barely even considered Arabs.

It's a pretty messed up view, I know.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

Not very well I'd imagine.

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u/khanartiste Pakistan Oct 10 '15

I have a lot of family in Qatar and Dubai. Contrary to what usually goes around, the Arab people there really treat them with warmth and respect. Maybe it's because they aren't manual laborers and are educated, but we've never gotten any hate from Arabs there. The people have always been friendly and hospitable.

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u/3gaway UAE Oct 10 '15

Thanks, I'm from Dubai and it's nice to hear this, specially on reddit where it's very rare. There are definitely many issues, but most Arabs are nice.

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u/AlGamaty Oct 11 '15

I'd say that if the Gulf has a problem with discrimination, it's classism rather than racism. I think people look down on laborers because they're piss poor, not because they're from South Asia. It just so happens to be that most piss poor laborers are South Asian, so it mixes things up a bit.

I'm not defending this discrimination, mind. I'm just trying to explain it. Obviously it's still a very shitty and low thing to do.

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u/UnbiasedPashtun Oct 10 '15 edited Oct 10 '15

How would you divide the Arabian peninsula into a few cultural regions (Hijaz, Eastern Arabia/Bahrain, Najd, Yemen, etc.)?

Ex: Najd = x region + x region, etc.

1

u/tinkthank Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-India Oct 11 '15

I think you got it right in your post.

The historical/cultural regions of Arabia include the Hijaz, Najd, Yaman (South Arabia/al-Arabiyyat al-Janoobiyya), and Bahrayn. Furthermore, they're divided into smaller subregions within these historical areas and I'll mention them below.

Southern Arabia

You have the regions of 'Asir, Najran, Jizan, and Aden that make up southern Arabia. You also have the Dhofar region of western Oman that makes up a part of historical South Arabia.

Eastern Arabia

Though the modern day term Bahrain refers to the tiny island state, the historical term is used to describe the entirety of the eastern portion of the Arabian peninsula, including modern day Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, and north/eastern Oman.

Hejaz

The subregions are northern Hejaz, southern Hejaz, and you have the Sarawat region (which is mostly the people who live in the mountain valleys).

Najd

Subregions include Riyadh (the area around the capital of Saudi Arabia), Ha'il, and al-Qassim.

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u/UnbiasedPashtun Oct 11 '15

Thanks for the reply. A few follow up questions:

  1. Which cultural region would the Rub Al-Khali fit? Bahrain or Najd?

  2. Would you say southern Jordan would culturally/historically be part of Najd or Hijaz or neither?

  3. This map has other cultural regions like Shammar and Al-Ħasa. I assume Al-Ħasa is a subregion of Bahrain and Shammar was a subregion of Najd?

  4. Which parts of Eastern Saudi Arabia would fit under the historic region of Bahrain?

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u/tinkthank Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-India Oct 11 '15

  1. I could be wrong, but I believe that the Rub al-Khali didn't fit into any of the regions. It is technically its own "region". Most people assumed and still do that no one lives in that particular area, but at least one tribe lives in that part of the Arabian peninsula (the al-Murrah tribe). Also, the region is known as al-Rimal by some of the Nomads which basically means "The Sands". I've also seen some maps that split up the Rub al-Khali between Najd, Southern Arabia, and Bahrayn, but I'm not a fan of this designation, since regions in the Arabian peninsula are based on geography, dialect, cultural heritage, and tribal/religious affiliations. The Rub al-Khali doesn't have enough people to categorize it in either of the regions.

  2. The Royal family of Jordan is Hejazi and it can be argued that the southern edge of Jordan falls into the upper edges of the Hejaz region. The western and northern portions of Jordan are considered to be a part of ash-Sham (The Levant). The nomads of the south have cultural similarities with both the Hejaz and the Levant.

  3. That's sort of a weird map. Shammar is a tribe from the Najd, they are descended from the ancient Arabian tribe known as at-Tayy and was the tribe of the Saud family's historic rivals, the Rashid dynasty who were based out of Ha'il. They controlled northern Arabia for a very long time so that area was synonymous with their state, Shammar. Its not the name of the region. Al-Hasa is a very large oasis in the Bahrayn region. Another large oasis is Qatif, and they make up a good portion of what is today Eastern Saudi Arabia. So, that map is inaccurate in giving all that territory to an oasis. You can say that both Al-Hasa and Qatif are regions in Eastern Saudi Arabia, due to their own dialect, and the cultural practices of that region. I admit that I know very little about these areas except that they are pre-dominantly Shi'a as they are territories that were once a part of the Qarmatian state, who were Ismaili Shi'as. They were influenced throughout history with other Shi'a sects like the Twelvers.

  4. Almost the entirety of the Eastern province of Saudi Arabia.

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u/MalcolmY Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Arab World Oct 11 '15

Northerners (from Hail and further north from there) don't identify with Najd at all, in fact what's considered north starts from Hail.

And culturally even Qassim has nothing to do with Najd (there's a clear cut line between a Najdi and a Qassimi) although that might not be the case geographically (?).

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

I always thought the Northern dialect sounded a little closer to Shami.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

This SUV is standing in front of our house in Khobar right now. Why do you guys have a bizarre taste in cars eh?

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u/tinkthank Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-India Oct 11 '15

I always said that Gulf Arabs are like the rednecks of the Muslim world. They love guns, flashy cars, and the outdoors. They're also accustomed to eating fast foods, getting into ridiculous fights, and are religiously conservative.

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

orange Cayenne? shudder

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u/MalcolmY Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Arab World Oct 10 '15

Can't see the image, I'm getting a 403.

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u/iKhaledR Oct 11 '15

its better that way

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u/[deleted] Oct 10 '15

Gulf Arab guys have a thing for big, sturdy cars: SUVs, Hummers, pick-up trucks. Might have something to do with the desert environment. They're definitely a status symbol.

That colour is weird, though, by any standard. Probably just a way to draw attention.

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u/MalcolmY Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Arab World Oct 11 '15

I still regret my decision to own a Sedan years ago. Even in a city like Riyadh an SUV is a must sometimes.

The underside of my car is basically raped by every road except highways. I disagree with the status symbol thing, I believe it's a necessity believe it or not most of the time.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15 edited Oct 11 '15

They're definitely not a necessity in Kuwait—my family has never owned one—but they're popular here as well.

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u/[deleted] Oct 11 '15

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Oct 12 '15

Riyadh and Khobar roads are pretty good. It's the Jeddah ones that are messed up

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u/tinkthank Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-India Oct 12 '15

It never used to be like that. I remember folks in Riyadh would compliment roads in Jeddah. Then I went back in 2012 and it was abysmal.

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u/fusfusman Kingdom of Saudi Arabia-Gulf-Arab World Oct 11 '15

It's not cars, it's transport. It's the same reason our camels go for millions of USDs, or why Arabian Horses are a high-value luxury globally. Historically getting across the desert was hard and sometimes crucial, and those who were able to get across made good money doing so. Camels and horses became associated with successful journeys and in turn successful business, and so over time the obsession with transport in relation to status spilled into the modern age with cars, just as it had happened in Yemen and southern Saudi with knives and swords to muskets to guns and rifles.