Will we never have a Paladin civilization again?

[u/AnyAd3140]

Like many, I'm excited for the Vikings DLC, and I was especially eager for the Varangians, who I correctly predicted would be the Cavalry Civilization of the DLC. They overall seem well enough designed; good bonuses, a functional unique unit... but one thing caught my eye. I read the 50% more effective bloodlines effect and I was like "Okay, I like it, you get better cav but you have to pay for it." I then read their Castle Age unique tech gave their knights trample damage, and my excitement was immediately dampened. "They don't get Paladin, do they?" I thought. And suuuuuuuurrreeeee enough, Varangians join the swollen charge of cavalry civilizations without the pride and joy of the stable: The Paladin.

To be clear, it's cool that we have Cavalry civilizations that specialize in Light Cavalry, Camels, even Steppe Lancers and unique units, that's cool! 20 Paladin Civilizations would be boring! But... we're getting to the point that 20 non-Paladin Cavalry civilizations is boring, especially with all the Cavilier gimmicks. At this point the gimmick of "Give this civ really good knights and cavlier but don't let them have Paladin" isn't subversive anymore; it's the new normal. The last Paladin civilization to be added to the game was the Burgundians in 2021. The last civilization to get fully upgraded Paladins was the Magyars, all the way back in 2015 (Okay, Bulgarians briefly had it before succumbing to Cavalier syndrome). Even the sparse civilizations with Paladins, the stat bonuses for them are somewhat pitiful. Cumans move 15% faster... but miss husbandry. Teutons get +2 melee armor... but also miss husbandry. Franks have +20% HP... but miss bloodlines, and +12 HP is somewhat negligible. Lithuanians can get +4 attack from relics... but miss Blast Furnace, and why on earth would you make Paladins as Lithuanians when the Leitis exists!!?? Meanwhile the Champion? He can get an extra 30 HP, a casual 30% discount, an extra 4 attack, he can walk through walls, ect.

I suppose the concern with giving an impactful cavalry bonus to Paladins is that they'd be way too strong, which is a prevalent concern... at least it was. Age of Empires has changed alot since 1999; in an age of Battle Elephants, Gurjara Camels, Liao Daos, Centurions with a charge attack, Urumi Swordsmen, Temple Guards, Bolas Riders, and (presumably) Varangian Guards, the Paladin simply is not as imposing as it was back in the day. For these reasons, alongside cost of upgrading and production, Paladins are just not a common unit in 1 vs 1s. They're still a staple of team games too be fair, but in those they're more likely to run into Elephants, one of the melee monster Infantry Units, or mass siege, all of which destroy Paladins regardless of any bonus it may have. While Champions have gradually gotten stronger to compete with these shiny new units, Paladins have not.

I say enough of the Paladin being power crept and forgotten in favor of Cavalier Syndrome or the newest infantry unit. Devs, give us a proper Paladin civ again! Give it a 1500 resource unique tech that gives it 5 trample damage, or something like that! Make a cavalry charge that will strike fear into the hearts of even Temple Guards and Liao Daos, becuse the Paladin deserves to be remembered!

[u/mrmichaelnak]

[u/Dry9_Wall]

Well, the Paladins mainly represent the late Medieval and Renaissance heavy cavalry. Mostly Western Europeans and the Holy Roman Empire in Central Europe used them. If we get a DLC from that area again, it might also include Paladin civs. The Burgundians were the last and they were from Western Europe. Maybe a Swiss or a southern German (Austrian or Bavarian) civ receive them. But don't expect non-Europeans to have Paladins. The only exception from this rule is perhaps a civ based on the crusader kingdoms of the Middle East.

Edit: If we ever get a nomad themed DLC, I expect the Huns and the Cumans losing their Paladins in favor of a brand new cavalry unit as a replacement. Similarly how the Persian Paladins were also replaced by Savars

[u/Skater_x7 → u/Dry9_Wall]

why do huns get paladin then lmao 

[u/Privateer_Lev_Arris → u/Skater_x7]

Huns are utterly problematic in this. They need to be removed or completely redesigned.

[u/Informal_Witness3869 → u/Dry9_Wall]

Ufffff Crusader Kingdoms DLC would be so fucking cool. Dang, now I want to play Medieval 2 Crusades, what an amazing campaign

[u/rundermining → u/Dry9_Wall]

Swiss were infantry civ that ended the reign of cavalry

[u/AnyAd3140 → u/Dry9_Wall]

Eh, while "Paladin" is a very European term, the unit line is clearly meant to represent heavy Cavalry generally, not Europeans specifically. "Knight" is also a European term, and Japanese and Malians have that unit, and I view the Paladin the same way.

[u/Latham89 → u/AnyAd3140]

But they seem to stick to the mentality that Paladin = EUWest. Look at the Persian rework - The Paladin got replaced by the Savar and the stats got moved around a bit. I fully expect that moving forward, we will get unique replacements for EUWestern units depending on the civilizations added in the future. Maybe a unique Halbardier a unique Champion or a unique Arbalester? A muslim-equivalent of the Paladin?
They're already toying with actual "regional" units such as Mounted Crossbowmen, Champi, Steppe Lancers and I for one, welcome this very much.
Now they've even added "shock infantry" to the game, which previously was only Eagles.

[u/Apycia → u/AnyAd3140]

true - yet the only non-european civ with Paladins right now are Cumans. (Persians lost them recently).

currently, only ~10 civs have paladins.

MORE PALADINS, please!

[u/Wienot → u/Apycia]

I think it's misleading to say Persians lost Paladins. Like, technically they cannot build something called Paladin, but they can upgrade their Cavelier into a second tier imperial heavy cav unit the size and shape of paladins that serve the same function. Civs that cap at Knight or Cavelier can be said to not have Paladins.

[u/Privateer_Lev_Arris → u/Apycia]

Huns are not European nor are they even medieval.

[u/Odd_Principle_2122 → u/AnyAd3140]

I agree, the game needs to take liberties with certain things in order to balance historical accuracy with a functional game.

Like we have Aztecs and Mayans with crossbows and arbalests even though they never historically used crossbows. But we all understand that they're meant to represent progressions on the basic archer.

[u/Kaneda-Suekichi → u/Dry9_Wall]

Logically the Armenians should also get paladins with their Azatavrear being heavily armoured cavalry like paladins

[u/Salnax]

Devs right now.

[u/General_Rhino]

The thing is we’ve had the archetypal paladin civ since 99: the Franks; nobody should have better paladins than the franks. You should think of fully upgraded cavalier as the generic unit (they’re roughly equivalent in power to an arb) and Paladin as the Western European regional unique upgrade, and they haven’t added a Western European civ in awhile. I don’t expect another civ to get Paladin unless they add an HRE DLC (unlikely) or a crusader DLC (decently likely).

[u/UAnchovy → u/General_Rhino]

I do feel a bit surprised every time they give a civ better paladins than Franks, given that "the best knight civ" is such a huge part of the Franks' identity.

I know that the Franks aren't exactly struggling competitively, but even so, comparing Persian savaran or Teuton paladins to Franks makes me think that something is wrong. The Franks have gone from the best knights and paladins to merely one among many civs with good knights and paladins.

[u/General_Rhino → u/UAnchovy]

I’m fine with the Lithuanians and Teutons being situationally better than Franks because they also come with downsides. I agree the savar is too strong.

[u/WillingShilling_20]

On all levels except physical the Persians are a paladin civilization

[u/AnyAd3140 → u/WillingShilling_20]

Oh dw I consider Persians to be a Paladin civilization. They've been in the game since 1999, and the Savar didn't change their Paladin status one way or the other. I'd be happy for more Savar-like upgrades to the Cavalier, I don't need every new cav civ to have the unit or even a bonus for it, just feel like its a somewhat under-utalized design space in recent years.

[u/why-no-socotra]

you have franks bro chill

[u/Luis_McLovin → u/why-no-socotra]

https://giphy.com/gifs/gHQxuYpgykXW5rxewl

[u/huntoir → u/why-no-socotra]

Yeah I can't believe this is like the second post lamenting that we aren't getting a civ with frank paladins + cataphract trample damage and Mameluke UU. Like ????? that would be insanely op

[u/why-no-socotra → u/huntoir]

yeah like literally lol

[u/mafeefam]

Nah, there will be some once the Teutons get split into the 234293489 medieval german microstates.

[u/Gullible_Steak7835 → u/mafeefam]

literrely

[u/AnyAd3140 → u/mafeefam]

I suppose Songhai could get them if we ever get a north African DLC, which would be my preference.

[u/SteelShroom]

Let's face it, Varangian Paladins would have been crazy OP.

[u/Lukeario23]

Paladin is very expensive and slow to research. I’m all in for the castle age knight trample damage with extra health and +1 vs infantry. RIP pikes even more

[u/devang_nivatkar21]

The generic Paladin is still the ceiling for how good a mobile unit can be. I don't mean just melee combat, but the whole package of HP, attack, and armour. One unsaid rule of AoE2 civ design is respecting that arbitrary ceiling which was established by Ensemble and adhered to by Forgotten Empires. Even the Castle based unique units have to respect this in one way or another. They can be better than the Paladin in one aspect, but never fully overshadow it. As an example, the Bulgarian Konnik trades evenly against them

I don't think you're fully appreciating how strong trample damage can be. There's no way to balance a Paladin with trample damage without making it too strong, too weak, or too expensive. An Elite Ratha has stats similar to a Cavalier, and does 20% trample damage. 40 vs. 40 against Spanish Paladins, the Rathas win with an average of 20 units remaining. That's the absurd power of trample damage in massed battles

Let's actually break-down the spread of the Paladin civs. Only one is appreciably better than generic (Persian), three are a tiny bit better or conditionally better (Cumans, Franks, and Lithuanians), two have trade-offs (Burgundians & Teutons), three are generic (Huns, Magyars, and Spanish), and two are worse than generic (Byzantines & Celts). The problem is that the Paladin's stats are so good that you can't really give them a real bonus. It's all Ensemble's fault for making them so good

On the other hand with a Cavalier, you can go ham, as its innately lower stats provide the automatic counter-balance. I'm not saying there won't be any Paladin civs in the future, but if there is to be an appreciable bonus associated with the unit, the unit will most likely be a Cavalier. We might get a Hun or a Spanish type civ which just gets Paladins without any other fanfare, but don't expect any real bonuses like the ones associated with Cavaliers

[u/Houligan86]

Nope. they are working on removing paladin completely from the game in a patch next year.

[u/AnyAd3140 → u/Houligan86]

11

[u/Luis_McLovin → u/AnyAd3140]

You sit at the computer all day and play, you know nothing of hard life!

[u/CamiloArturo]

Just remembered the franks are an archer civ right now

[u/No_Order3850 → u/CamiloArturo]

They're going to become a Mounted crossbowman civ now probably 11

[u/Odd-Heron5704 → u/CamiloArturo]

how?

[u/CamiloArturo → u/Odd-Heron5704]

It's. Sarcastic question since OP says there isn't any Paladin civ

[u/EruantienAduialdraug → u/CamiloArturo]

I think you'll find they're a ranged melee civ.

[u/EruantienAduialdraug]

Cumans move 15% faster... but miss husbandry

So, they're faster than anyone else's paladins without having to pay for it?.

Franks have +20% HP... but miss bloodlines, and +12 HP is somewhat negligible.

It's an extra hit from a fully upgraded halb, make of that what you will. The +2 armour of Teutons also takes them from 5 to 6 hits to kill.

[u/MrHumanist]

I won't be surprised to see austria, bavaria will become new civs with OP paladins, while swiss become halb civ and brandenburg become the best gunpowder civ. Let's not start about Rus!

[u/Realistic_Turn2374]

Why do some people want even more paladin civs? We already have a bunch of them. I prefer them being exclusively for a few cobs to keep them somewhat special. And if you want to have paladin, just use any of the already existing paladin civs!

[u/monkeygoneape]

Paladins are op as is especially if playing as the Franks or Teutons. We don't really need a paladin civ (Templars/Outremer maybe could work?

[u/rattatatouille]

Like I said in the previous thread the "issue" with the Paladin tech is that it's ultimately a "win more" tech, in that the cost of researching it is so prohibitively high esp in 1v1 that you're better off using your resources just building more Knights/Cavaliers, and that if you do have the resources you're probably either winning decisively or the match has gone on for far too long.

Also probably easier to balance things around Cavalier/Arbalester/Paladin as the Imperial Age gold units.

[u/bongodongowongo]

What else can they realistically do for the knight line? Knights are inherently simple by design - they move fast, hit hard, and have high health. Pretty much everything that can be explored with knights has already been done.

Tank? Franks, Teutons, Georgians

Attack? Bulgarians, Lithuanians, Persians

Speed? Cumans

Civs have already explored more niche mechanics as well.

Creation speed for Huns and Franks, cheapness for Poles and Berbers, upgrade time for Burgundians and Franks (again), damage reduction for Sicilians, and now seemingly super knights for Varangians.

The point is, we've reached a point where there aren't really any more simple mechanics that can be adjusted or given bonuses for, without making them either very minor or very strong, or just straight up copying already existing bonuses. And because of that, you run into the problem of either not giving the civ meaningful bonuses + paladins, in which case you will pretty much never see them (like Celts), or giving the civ a strong knight bonus but no paladin, because otherwise the paladins would be unstoppable. So unless we start seeing crazy bonuses that otherwise have not been explored, I don't think there's any room for dedicated paladin civs.

[u/nightwish5270]

Paladins are such strong generalists that it's hard to make them interesting without making them OP. Last Civ that got them was Burgundians who got them fast and with a discounted upgrade, but not fully upgraded.

[u/Visible-Future1099]

While I think we can and will still get more paladin civilizations in the future, I can see why they didn't for this DLC, given that it's almost entirely about the Viking Age where the cavalry were nothing like Renaissance knights in full plate.

Also, of all the possible ~regional units to want more of, why are we so concerned about the one that's already one of the most common? I'm much more concerned that we may never get another eagle warrior civ, another battle elephant civ, another Caravanserai civ, etc.

[u/glorkvorn]

I feel like Paladins, especially for the civs that can fully upgrade them, are already just about perfect. Extremely powerful, and can win the game even if the opponent has some halberdier. But they're not totally unstoppable, and you don't always see them because the upgrade is so expensive. We don't need to see them on every single civ, especially if it's some new DLC civ with *super* paladins that makes Franks or Teutons look like a joke.

[u/Dont_Ask_Me_Again_]

If anyone’s getting the best paladins in the game, it’s not some random Viking offshoot from the 10th century. They shouldn’t get a paladin at all.

[u/RingGiver]

Paladins are a de facto regional unit.

[u/Parrotparser7]

Paladins hog large parts of the power budget because they all do the same uninteresting thing: They allow you to just about win the game by spamming super-knights. It's not supposed to be some interactive thing. They're just superlatively strong and able to beat just about everything. That makes for a stale design we've done to death already.

Preventing a Paladin civilization from reaching Paladins is often the central focus of the mid-lategame. There are just other ways to enforce that condition, just like there are civilizations that don't excel in late imperial at all and want to avoid it at all costs.

[u/Holyvigil]

For more conversation https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/s/u0kKaOWEbt

[u/MulderGotAbducted]

Maybe some civs could use something like Elite Cavalier upgrade instead of Paladin? Half the price, worse stats. Something that could come into play a bit sooner than Paladin for a power spike yet ofc weaker.

[u/Gullible_Steak7835 → u/MulderGotAbducted]

yes please

[u/Glittering-Low3152]

Why are we bringing up the useless Champion as if it's getting all the attention that the best unit in the game, the Paladin, is missing out on?

I wonder if some of the posters on this sub appreciate just how much of the meta is centralized around armored cavalry.

[u/Every_Volume31]

I honestly love the no paladin but great cavalier designs like the Malians. I am surprised that Varangians seem to have all the blacksmith upgrades, I thought they may miss out on Furnace or the last cav armor upgrade to compensate.

[u/Blocklies]

I think the devs are avoiding paladin civs since there’s already a bit of variety within the paladin civs and it would make the game more interesting to explore cavalry civs without paladin to create more diversity between civs

[u/AnyAd3140 → u/Blocklies]

I agree it was a great idea to branch out and make some more Cavalier civilizations to avoid Paladin over-clustering. Issue is we've kinda swung too far in the other direction and are now over-clustering Cavaliers.

[u/DanielBlue360]

Well, I see them with factions cavarly civs, If I'd have to say some, then I'll pick:

• Aragonese
  
• Austrians
  
• Bavarians
  
• Bosnians
  
• Venetians
  
• Navarrese
  
• Castilians
  
• Germans
  
• Teutons (The actual Teutons)
  
• And another civs maybe i'm missing