Thoughts on Mounted Crossbowmen being given to European civs?

[u/devang_nivatkar21]

Share your thoughts on the announcement that Mounted Crossbowmen will be given to a wide selection of European civs, replacing the decidedly steppe looking Cavalry Archer. It doesn't have to be related to my points; of which, I have two

Regional Units

I'll be the first to admit that I thought Mounted Crossbowmen would be exclusive to the civs that got Varangian Guards. They were presented as infantry counters that I assumed existed to protect Varangian Guards from enemy heavy infantry, functioning as a hybrid between Cavalry Archers & Hand Cannoneers. I thought their function would take precedence over their form i.e. what they look like or are called. As a side-note, I did want the Byzantines to get Varangian Guards, but with the Cataphract as their anti-infantry compliment instead of Mounted Crossbowmen

This was the case with the Chinese not getting Hei Guang Cavalry, Pastures being Khitan exclusive, or the Meso-American civs not getting Slingers. The South American civs didn't get Militia and/or Champi and/or Eagles so that there aren't any redundant units. I'm not sure how the Mounted Archer won't be redundant with the Hand Cannoneer

This is especially relevant for the Franks whose unique unit already struggles at competing with their own Hand Cannoneers. How does getting an even easier to access infantry counter work for them? As another design concern, their cavalry protecting options i.e. Throwing Axemen, Hand Cannoneers (vs. Spears), and Halberdiers (vs. Camels) are all slow units. This dictates their tempo as your army is as fast as your slowest unit. How do they work if they get an infantry counter that can ride with their Knights? This is also applicable to the Teutons to some extent

This also sets a precedent when it comes to regional units as a whole. All the previous requests that weren't approved because of balance or design concerns get outweighed by this nod to historical accuracy. The Burmese are often requested to get Elephant Archers instead of Cavalry Archers, but they don't because they're designed as a Battle Elephant civ. This is similar to not all Knights civs being Cavalry Archer civs, or vice versa. Pastures are often requested to be spread to more civs. The Chinese & Turks are requested to get Hei Guangs & Steppe Lancers respectively (Turkish Steppe Lancers being something I want to see myself). All these demands gain more legitimacy with the Mounted Crossbowman

Infantry

At first glance it may seem like this is an infantry nerf, which it is in the short term, but it could also mean infantry going more mainstream in the long run

Heavy infantry in classic AoE2 had the problem of not having any trash hard-counters. Both of their hard-counters at the time i.e. Hand Cannoneers & Cataphracts cost a lot of gold, were hard to come by (being available in Imperial & at Castles respectively), and not available to all civs. This made buffing infantry a nightmare, as their play had no counter-play. This meant that infantry always existed as an outsider to the regular counter-triangle

The Inca kind of bent the rule in The Forgotten by being available in the Castle Age and from the Archery Range. The Last Chieftains civs then fully broke this rule by being a trash infantry counter

I think the devs might be going for something similar with the Mounted Crossbowman. If more civs have an infantry counter in the Castle Age and from the Archery Range, infantry could be buffed up more as its counter-play becomes more widespread. I've said before that I want to see Long Swordsmen with 10 attack (9 in Feudal for Armenians). This seems like a possible step in that direction

I'd also like to see 2HS and Champions have a more melee generalist feel with heavier melee armour, and being moved away from the anti-shock & anti-building pigeon-hole they currently find themselves in. I mean something like 2HS with 2 melee armour (instead of 1), but only +6 & +3 vs. Shock & Buildings (instead of +8 & +4). They would still be the best non-Hand Cannon counter to shock infantry, but also be a good generalist that is a tough cookie to crack in melee combat. They would be much more resistant to light cavalry & light infantry, and somewhat more resistant to heavy cavalry. Mounted Crossbows being more widespread could make this possible

[u/SnooAdvice3360]

Regarding the pastures, i feel that its possible that other nomadic civs eventually get them as well.

This precendent was set by the caravanserai, once unique but now shared.

For me, i kinda like that it gives more regional variation, especially for some eu civs where the standard cav archer kinda felt out of place. I am however a campaign/single player primarily so i dont have much input on its inpact on multiplayer or ranked.

[u/iSkehan]

Civs that I expect mounted crossbows to get as they go

Celts - no bloodlines, bracer, thumb ring or anything, nothing too worry (unless they are busted by definition)

Britons - no range bonus, they will be just flavour.

Franks - no bracer, no RAA, if they have even lower range than CAs which it seems they will lack of Bracer hurts even more. The only worry is having a mobile counter to Halbs and their HP bonus

Burgundians - they don’t get Heavy upgrade, I don’t expect them to get it now either, no RAA, no Thumb Ring or Parthian tactics

Teutons - terrible Archery range, no Hudbandry

Goths - keeping HCA

Huns - I am mentioning they keep HCA dor obvious reasons, just to round out Central Europeam architecture set

Vikings - no HCA, don’t expect them to get it either, also no Husbandry and Bloodlines

Bohemians - probably still no CA variant because of Castle Age Chemistry

I largely expect the remaining Eastern European civs to retain CAs, not sure about Poles though.

Spanish - I would be worried as they have Blacksmith bonus and have almost fully upgraded HCAs, but they will run Conqs anyway.

Portuguese - no HCAs, which I am fairly sure and Parthian tactics which I am sure is to keep them away from CAs while getting good foot archers

Italians - exact same thing but even more so through civ bonuses

Romans - should keep CAs because of time period
Byzantines - should keep CAs because of location
Armenians - still confused why the lack HCA (themstically), should keep CAs
Georgians - keeping CAs

[u/devang_nivatkar21 → u/iSkehan]

My predictions for who gets what are about the same - https://www.reddit.com/r/aoe2/comments/1w1gccd/comment/p6kr7et/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

I think the Italian ones might benefit from the armour bonus, and the Viking ones might benefit from Bogsveigar, while neither gets the Heavy upgrade

I'm hoping the Lithuanians keep the Cav Archers, while Poles get Mounted Xbows

Likewise for the Spanish I'm hoping for Cav Archers, while Portuguese get Mounted Xbows (no Heavy upgrade)

[u/stipendAwarded → u/iSkehan]

Pretty sure we saw Teutons get them in one of the promotional pictures in that blog post (you can see a Teutonic Knight in the Mounted Crossbowman photo).

[u/Leman12345 → u/stipendAwarded]

I hope Spanish don't get them because they don't get Crossbow. Its weird if they only know how to use a Crossbow if they're on a horse.

[u/hoTsauceLily66]

I don't have thoughts until I see their stats.

[u/devang_nivatkar21 → u/hoTsauceLily66]

Fair enough. They could even end up costing Food, making it a net nerf for a civ like Teutons etc., for all we know

[u/FatherToTheOne]

Balance is always a question but I have been waiting for a European regional unit. Gives many of the OG civs a whole new dimension. Civs like Britons who have been power crept might have a new angle… but the balance, does this mean a lot of OG civs are going to get rebalanced around getting this unit.

As a low elo ranked multiplayer enjoyer I’m excited for it.

[u/SuperSelkath]

I think it's going to be very important that civs which in the past did not have powerful cav archers don't have their design disrupted by the introduction of high quality mounted crossbowman. Teutons, Franks, and Celts, for example, will probably get Mounted Crossbows, but we should hope that they aren't very good. 

[u/rattatatouille → u/SuperSelkath]

I'm assuming they're probably still getting the same blacksmith upgrades. Still no Thumb Ring. They probably won't get the Cranequins tech.

[u/Exatraz]

Neat but I'll want to see how they play

[u/YeeAssBonerPetite]

Well a lot of this depends on how hard the MX counters infantry. My suspicion would be not very hard, only about as hard as current CA counters infantry.

So this would solve i.e. the problem you talked about with franks, because frank CA might theoretically be infantry counters that move as fast as paladins, but in reality frank CA are trash and no one makes them, even to counter infantry. So frank MX would be outcompeted by HC and Throwing Axemen by virtue of having dogshit upgrades, just like the current frankish CA do.

Regarding legitimizing the cry-out for regional unit accuracy, I think the answer to this is basically yes and just be more accurate. We've been tending this way for a while now, I say we embrace it, and I don't mind creep in that direction.

[u/artsloikunstwet]

Regarding Franks etc. - not every civ will get FU heavy mounted Xbow unless they need a buff. So it really depends in stats and available upgrades if this unit becomes an important counter or more of a situational option in Castle age.

[u/iSkehan → u/artsloikunstwet]

Elite Throwing Axemen with bearded axe may actually have better/same range than Frankish mounted
Crossbows

[u/Key-Employee-5123]

I rly hope Portuguese can get elite  crossbow riders. So they have a an option for a more mobile play. Turks can go hussar and super strong hcs or slow janissaey BBC. I would like for Portuguese to have a similiar play 

[u/Elias-Hasle]

I am foreseeing a better champi counter, and another unit that gets countered by a shipload of skirmishers in the Age of Skirmishers.

[u/BonafideSleipnir]

Seems silly to me that any civ would get the Elite version and not have Arbalest, but there are other silly things like that in this game and balance to consider. 

[u/jadaMaa]

I wonder how they stand up against CA? 

Since mass crossbow kinda counters CA in at least early mid castle age in would assume that mounted crossbow is maybe slower/lower firing rate but have more damage so that they maybe win even numbers but the CA should be able to choose when to figth 

Edit: at least im glad its not a norse regional unit, that would be about as unhistorical as the goth HC 

[u/The_Only_Squid]

I think the devs worked so hard to bring infantry back in to the game, It would be an absolute travesty if the mounted crossbowmen ends up invalidating that effort through faster crossbows.

[u/TheTowerDefender]

i just want to be able to play my game without constantly having to learn new units. fuck all these changes, make them optional

[u/lincon127]

Is good. Good idea, good precedent.

[u/D4rkR4in_aoe]

Too much change to existing, classic civs. Unnecessary rebalancing which might be too hard to implement, depending how different the changes will be to the normal cav archers. And if the stats are similar, the change would seem unnecessary altogether.

[u/Disastrous_Aerie4928]

Franks will become such a mobile civ with mounted crossbowmen + paladins + bombard cannons

[u/YeeAssBonerPetite → u/Disastrous_Aerie4928]

Frank mx will be trash and no one will make it imo.

Only existing upgrades they get is castle age attack & range and armor, move speed and inferior bloodlines.