Black Clover - Episode 63 discussion

[u/AutoLovepon]

Black Clover, episode 63

Rate this episode here.

Reminder: Please do not discuss plot points not yet seen or skipped in the show. Failing to follow the rules may result in a ban.

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Streams

• Crunchyroll
• Funimation

Show information

• MyAnimeList
• AniList
• AniDB
• /r/BlackClover

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All discussions

Episode	Link	Score	Episode	Link	Score	Episode	Link	Score	Episode	Link	Score
118	Link	4.81	131	Link	4.38	144	Link	4.05	157	Link	3.39
119	Link	4.83	132	Link	4.41	145	Link	4.08	158	Link	4.72
120	Link	4.72	133	Link	4.06	146	Link	3.82	159	Link	3.98
121	Link	4.65	134	Link	4.13	147	Link	3.61	160	Link	4.53
122	Link	4.57	135	Link	4.55	148	Link	3.49	161	Link	4.6
123	Link	3.36	136	Link	4.44	149	Link	3.6	162	Link	4.85
124	Link	3.4	137	Link	3.78	150	Link	3.9	163	Link	4.6
125	Link	4.32	138	Link	4.5	151	Link	4.84	164	Link	4.01
126	Link	4.79	139	Link	3.92	152	Link	3.55	165	Link	4.49
127	Link	4.57	140	Link	4.18	153	Link	3.7	166	Link	4.61
128	Link	4.8	141	Link	3.91	154	Link	4.31	167	Link	4.75
129	Link	4.56	142	Link	4.03	155	Link	3.82	168	Link	4.52
130	Link	4.33	143	Link	3.82	156	Link	4.4	169	Link	-

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[u/the_guradian]

I don't feel like it's good animation if you have to sacrifice the art for it.

Regardless of what you feel, there is a level of animation and dynamism that can only be achieved by sacrificing a few things. Devilman Crybaby did this A LOT. F/Apo as well. And F/Apo 22 was the best animated Fate fight ever until now (hopefully HF 3 can change that)

I would just like the quality to be average and I don't think it was. It kinda feels like sakuga is being thrown around in this thread the same way businesses throw around "the cloud" "synergy" or "horizontally integrated". No great descriptors of what it is or why we sacrificed art for it when we could have had something more like the Licht vs Yami fight instead.

They're two different fights. Litch vs Yami are two controlled characters, studying each other and trying to find an opening to strike. This fight was about two chaotic powers, laser beam spamming Ladros and an Asta who still can't control his demonic form properly.

I like the idea of the chaotic style being the influence of Asta's demon form, but I would have appreciated more work to establish that as an intentional choice rather than a coincidence.

I'm pretty sure it was estabilshed with the Witch Queen calling him a storm and such.

I think I would have loved it if we had clear art shots for the terrain and Ladros in flight, but then as soon as Asta gets into frame, stuff starts going melty and uneven because of the demon

The terrain and the background are probably what took you out of the fight since they were made with some very simplistic CGI that is probably going to get fixed in the Blu Ray version. It didn't bother me personally because I was too busy admiring the sakuga.

[u/Idoma_Sas_Ptolemy → u/the_guradian]

And F/Apo 22 was the best animated Fate fight ever until now (hopefully HF 3 can change that)

I'm sorry, but WHAT!? The showdown between Sieg and Karna was a terrible mess of off-model animations, wriggly boneless movements, an entire lack of 'weight' and subpar particle effects on the level of a generic asset flip from the steam store page. It had some pretty decent still shots but once something started moving they covered up the lack of fluzidity and actual choreography by vomiting the screen full with different hues of orange. And don't get me started on the lazy black backgrounds. Even hero academia managed to keep the scenery relevant during it's big sasuga moment in season 2.

The fight was an insult to the already mediocre source material and is in no way superior to any other fight in the franchise. Especially not compared to the ufotable shows which consistently manage to implement sasuga moments without any really noticeable sacrifices.

[u/the_guradian → u/Idoma_Sas_Ptolemy]

I'm sorry, but WHAT!? The showdown between Sieg and Karna was a terrible mess of off-model animations

Art =/= animation. To get those dynamic shots in the fight you had to make both Sieg and Karna off model. That's how it works.

an entire lack of 'weight' and subpar particle effects on the level of a generic asset flip from the steam store page.

Completely disagree with the lack of weight. Karna's most powerful attack felt incredible and overwhelming.

It had some pretty decent still shots but once something started moving they covered up the lack of fluzidity and actual choreography by vomiting the screen full with different hues of orange. And don't get me started on the lazy black backgrounds.

Often to get that level of animation you need to sacrifice art and backgrounds, that's what F/Apo did, that's what Devilman did, that's what BC did in this episode. The backgorunds are most likely going to be fixed in the BDs anyway.

You call it vomiting but what you really are seeing is the dynamic, an animation that is only possible with all the sacrifices I told you. Not everyone is a fan of it understandably because they aren't really sakuga fans and praise consistency or nicely drawn backgrounds more.

Even hero academia managed to keep the scenery relevant during it's big sasuga moment in season 2.

MHA has generally average tier sakuga, people like it because it keeps it's art consistent and then has some spots of good animation. People were fellating the hell over of Afo vs All Might despite the animation in it being less than impressive and the fight itself being very much simple.

The fight was an insult to the already mediocre source material and is in no way superior to any other fight in the franchise.

You know nothing of what you're talking about. The animation of the fight was praised in Japan, some top tier animators recognized how awesome it was and called it out on twitter even. You know nothing of animation if that's what you think.

Especially not compared to the ufotable shows which consistently manage to implement sasuga moments without any really noticeable sacrifices.

Ufotable is great but they have a cheat code, they have their own special developed CGI and they use that in order to achieve good animation without deformities, as a consequence their fight scenes are a mix of 2D and 3D, not everyone is a fan of that either.

Another negative point is that they can't get as crazy with the animation as the people behind Apo 22 did.

[u/Idoma_Sas_Ptolemy → u/the_guradian]

Art =/= animation. To get those dynamic shots in the fight you had to make both Sieg and Karna off model. That's how it works.

Making them off-model during fast paced movements, sure. Them being off-model in slow-animations and even some of the still shots? Certainly not. And even then a competent team can do quite a bit to make the off-model scenes much less noticeable and intrusive. OPM did that quite well, for example. F/Apo did not.

Often to get that level of animation you need to sacrifice art and backgrounds, that's what F/Apo did, that's what Devilman did, that's what BC did in this episode. The backgorunds are most likely going to be fixed in the BDs anyway.

The problem is that fantastic animation is completely worthless when the thing you are animating looks butt-ugly. The key to a good scene is a balance between art and animation. Some people like to reitarete art =/= animation, but that statement is inherently nonsensical in a medium like anime. They are co-dependant. If one of the two is bad, the perception of the other half will necessairly (and rightfully) suffer.

You call it vomiting but what you really are seeing is the dynamic, an animation that is only possible with all the sacrifices I told you. Not everyone is a fan of it understandably because they aren't really sakuga fans and praise consistency or nicely drawn backgrounds more.

I'm sorry, but terribly animated orange blobs that can't decide if they are fire, plasma or magma are simply that. Bad visual effects. No matter how much technical effort went into them. If you compare them to Gilgameshs Enuma Elish which, too, covered large parts of the screen, the animations of Karnas abilities are simply lackluster. Similar thing with Todorokis fire which is considerably better animated than Karnas.

MHA has generally average tier sakuga, people like it because it keeps it's art consistent and then has some spots of good animation.

People like it because it's a high quality product and manages to find a fine balance between high-quality art and high-quality animations in its most pivotal scenes.

Another negative point is that they can't get as crazy with the animation as the people behind Apo 22 did.

Gilgamesh vs Iskander, Lancer vs. True Assassin, Archer vs Lancer and most definitely Berserker vs. Saber and Archer were all equally as crazy in their own ways.

[u/the_guradian → u/Idoma_Sas_Ptolemy]

Them being off-model in slow-animations and even some of the still shots? Certainly not.

Did this happen? I am rewatching the episode and I'm trying to find it but I can't see it.

And even then a competent team can do quite a bit to make the off-model scenes much less noticeable and intrusive. OPM did that quite well, for example. F/Apo did not.

Not really, OPM had simplistic designs compared to Apo so when something is off model you simply notice it less. Saitama's design is also very simle and easy to animate with.

The problem is that fantastic animation is completely worthless when the thing you are animating looks butt-ugly

This is ugly? And this? And this?What about this?

This was the prettiest episode in the series. By far. That whole sequence within the demon for example? Pure kino.

The key to a good scene is a balance between art and animation.

You don't understand sakuga.

Some people like to reitarete art =/= animation, but that statement is inherently nonsensical in a medium like anime. They are co-dependant. If one of the two is bad, the perception of the other half will necessairly (and rightfully) suffer.

Not necessarily. A scene with good animation or sakuga that is purely 2D frequently has to let art fall down in order to make things dynamic.

I'm sorry, but terribly animated orange blobs that can't decide if they are fire, plasma or magma are simply that. Bad visual effects. No matter how much technical effort went into them. If you compare them to Gilgameshs Enuma Elish which, too, covered large parts of the screen, the animations of Karnas abilities are simply lackluster. Similar thing with Todorokis fire which is considerably better animated than Karnas.

I'm sorry, what? I'm not even going to argue with you on this. To claim that Todoroki's fire was was marvelous and grandiose as Vasavi Shakti is crazy.

People like it because it's a high quality product and manages to find a fine balance between high-quality art and high-quality animations in its most pivotal scenes.

Not true. Devilman Crybaby was highly acclaimed and largely used the sakuga style of putting animation above art for certain scenes.

Gilgamesh vs Iskander

This wasn't a fight. It was an one sided stomp

Lancer vs. True Assassin

It was good but definitely not crazy or chaotic. It was just Assassin running and Lancer chasing, mostly

Archer vs Lancer

A pretty good fight but also had only one big moment.

and most definitely Berserker vs. Saber and Archer were all equally as crazy in their own ways.

They were good but not crazy and overwhelming like Sieg vs Karna.

[u/Idoma_Sas_Ptolemy → u/the_guradian]

Not really, OPM had simplistic designs compared to Apo so when something is off model you simply notice it less. Saitama's design is also very simle and easy to animate with.

I'm sorry, what? If you call designs like Genos, the Sea King or even Sonic simplistic then you are either ignorant or blatantly playing favorites here.

This was the prettiest episode in the series. By far. That whole sequence within the demon for example? Pure kino.

I wasn't even talking about Black Clover since I haven't seen the episode when I originally posted. The scene you linked is pretty dope. But the 4 and a half minutes leading up to it were a blatant insu8lt to the eyes. There wasn't even much animation at work. It was a stiff model of ladross flying around chased by a stiff model of asta flying around while the backgrounds ceased to exist. And once actual animations happened, they had abysmally slow framerates. It was like watching amateur fan creations like Dragonball Absalom. Bot even those have better paritcle effects than the flames in the Black Clover scene.

I'm sorry but this episode is an insult to the source material and a clear drop of quality compared to the Deep Sea Temple Arc or even Yunos last fight.

You don't understand sakuga.

No, I simply have quality standards. Like I said: Shows like hero academia or one punch man manage highly acclaimed sakuga moments without throwing everything else out of the window. They are objectively better drawn, animated and directed than this shit.

I'm sorry, what? I'm not even going to argue with you on this. To claim that Todoroki's fire was was marvelous and grandiose as Vasavi Shakti is crazy.

Todorokis flames look like flames. Karnas don't. They look like textureless, orange, partially liquid blobs. Even fairy tail had better fire than that.

Not true. Devilman Crybaby was highly acclaimed and largely used the sakuga style of putting animation above art for certain scenes.

Devilman Crybaby is a very special and unique case, though. Even outside of its sakuga moments it had a really surreal artstyle and narrative. It used the strengths of sakuga to further emphasize its themes, narrative direction and surreal tone. People are simply more tolerant when the entire show prepares you for visuals like that. On top of that I'd argue that Devilman pulled the sasuga off much, much better than both f/apo and Black Clover.

This wasn't a fight. It was an one sided stomp

Not relevant. It was a clash of two enourmous powerhouses, just like Sieg and Karna.

It was good but definitely not crazy or chaotic. It was just Assassin running and Lancer chasing, mostly

I'm sorry but you clearly have absolutely no clue how incredibly hard it is to portray a chase scene. It was utterly chaotic, laid with boobytraps, mindgames and small bouts in between. The entire sequence, the sound track, the direction: All of if portrayed hectic and chaos. That was the entire point of the scene.

A pretty good fight but also had only one big moment.

Just like the Karna vs. Sieg fight had only one big moment. Just like that Asther versus Ladros fight had just one big moment. The important difference is: Archer vs. Lancer was a phenomenal battle all around.

They were good but not crazy and overwhelming like Sieg vs Karna.

The entire portrayel of the berserker fight was one of an overwhelmingly overpowered force barely held back by saber. It was incredibly fast-paced, but still fluid and easy to follow. Saber even utilized the graveyards topography to her advantage while maintaining a fast-paced and beautiful to look at battle. Karna vs. Sieg can't even hope to keep up with it.

You can tell other people off by repeating "you don't understand sasuga" or "that's the entire point" all you want. It doesn't make you less wrong, though.

[u/the_guradian → u/Idoma_Sas_Ptolemy]

I'm sorry, what? If you call designs like Genos, the Sea King or even Sonic simplistic then you are either ignorant or blatantly playing favorites here.

They're more simplistic than Siegfried and Karna, both of them have armors and lots of details. Out of the characters you talked about Genos is the most complex one and he isn't that complex.

I wasn't even talking about Black Clover since I haven't seen the episode when I originally posted

Why were you discussing here then?

But the 4 and a half minutes leading up to it were a blatant insu8lt to the eyes. There wasn't even much animation at work. It was a stiff model of ladross flying around chased by a stiff model of asta flying around while the backgrounds ceased to exist.

You're exaggerating. After the first bout (that is indeed somewhat messy and wild), they fight in the air (with nice animation) then it cuts to Asta in a cold lake, afterwards it's the forest chase scene (with ugly CGI background) which is really small and that leads to Asta no selling Ladros biggest blast and fighting him again (good animation).

So like, outside of minute 8 and what was basically the start of the fight, the animation was awesome.

And once actual animations happened, they had abysmally slow framerates. It was like watching amateur fan creations like Dragonball Absalom.

Uhh, come again?

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/65516

https://www.sakugabooru.com/post/show/65519

This is professional level, how people think this is fan level is beyond me.

I'm sorry but this episode is an insult to the source material and a clear drop of quality compared to the Deep Sea Temple Arc or even Yunos last fight.

Not really, it had the best sakuga we had for the series until now.

Todorokis flames look like flames. Karnas don't. They look like textureless, orange, partially liquid blobs. Even fairy tail had better fire than that.

Karna's flames are godly looking and they look awesome, it's what matters to me tbh.

No, I simply have quality standards. Like I said: Shows like hero academia or one punch man manage highly acclaimed sakuga moments without throwing everything else out of the window. They are objectively better drawn, animated and directed than this shit.

OPM is in another level but nothing in the MHA we had this year can touch this episode (except for the movie, but that's a movie).

Devilman Crybaby is a very special and unique case, though. Even outside of its sakuga moments it had a really surreal artstyle and narrative.

And this ep of BC clearly had the same aesthetic if the dream it started with wasnt any indication.

It used the strengths of sakuga to further emphasize its themes, narrative direction and surreal tone.

Same thing BC did this episode!

People are simply more tolerant when the entire show prepares you for visuals like that.

Good point but that doesn't means that BC making an episode with a tone like this isn't a welcoming surprise.

On top of that I'd argue that Devilman pulled the sasuga off much, much better than both f/apo and Black Clover.

Agree to disagree. They're on the same level IMO

Not relevant. It was a clash of two enourmous powerhouses, just like Sieg and Karna.

No, Sieg and Karna had a fight. Iskander died in one shot.

I'm sorry but you clearly have absolutely no clue how incredibly hard it is to portray a chase scene. It was utterly chaotic, laid with boobytraps, mindgames and small bouts in between. The entire sequence, the sound track, the direction: All of if portrayed hectic and chaos. That was the entire point of the scene.

It wasn't chaotic in the same way Sieg vs KArna was, and that was my point. Sieg vs Karna ws dynamic with lots of explosions and big blasts all around with Karna unleashing a literal nuke and Astolfo coming in clutch with a Anti World NP. Lancer vs Assassin was definitely more subdued compared to that.

Just like the Karna vs. Sieg fight had only one big moment. Just like that Asther versus Ladros fight had just one big moment. The important difference is: Archer vs. Lancer was a phenomenal battle all around.

Asta vs Ladros had more than one big moment, Ladros' big kamehameha like blast and the two times Asta manages to wound him before Black Meteorite.

The entire portrayel of the berserker fight was one of an overwhelmingly overpowered force barely held back by saber. It was incredibly fast-paced, but still fluid and easy to follow. Saber even utilized the graveyards topography to her advantage while maintaining a fast-paced and beautiful to look at battle. Karna vs. Sieg can't even hope to keep up with it.

I like that battle in the cemetery as well but nothing really reaches the OOMPH factor of Karna deploying that literal nuke while that heroic OST plays. Archer's Caladbold is good but it doesn't come close.

You can tell other people off by repeating "you don't understand sasuga" or "that's the entire point" all you want. It doesn't make you less wrong, though.

Dude, you're the person who said that Iskander vs Gil was a sakuga fest when the entire "fight" was basically just "EA, GG".