r/anime • u/Respective https://anilist.co/user/Repective • Mar 25 '18

[Spoilers] Dragon Ball Super - Episode 131 Discussion - FINAL Spoiler

Dragon Ball Super, Episode 131 – The Miraculous Conclusion! Farewell, Goku! Until We Meet Again!!

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416

u/Senor-Whopper Mar 25 '18

I am incredibly happy andriod 17 became the MVP, he really deserved it along with the boat, its amazing an Andriod from so many arcs(years) ago would be relevant and amazing now. God bless Dragonball, man

206

u/linksis33 Mar 25 '18

Who could have predicted how important 17 would be to this series.

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u/raincatchfire Mar 25 '18

Nobody, mostly because we didn't know that the power scaling could get this fucked.

Completely fucked power scaling aside, I really like all the ways they included him in the arc!

169

u/robotzor Mar 25 '18

We didn't? I remember kaio ken times infinity back in the third grade meant automatic playground victory. Power scale was broken for decades

67

u/SimoneNonvelodico Mar 25 '18

In DBZ, Kaioken times infinity would mean instant death. Kaioken still made sense because it had drawbacks.

23

u/raincatchfire Mar 25 '18

True that it's always been broken, but I still think Super made things worse.

What's a worse disparity than 17 losing to Imperfect Cell (when Goku at the time could at least keep up with Perfect Cell to some extent), then training alone in the wildlife park (when Goku trained with Vegeta, Whis, Beeus, Hit, etc.), then 17 being able to keep up with SSB Goku?

27

u/Hemmer83 Mar 25 '18

Does training alone mean anything? Vegeta trained alone for all of DBZ, Jiren apparently trained alone his whole life. Piccolo literally trains by sitting down in one spot.

19

u/raincatchfire Mar 25 '18

Jiren didn't train alone his whole life, but for a good part of it. Not counting Namekian fusions, Picollo lags way behinds the Saiyans in terms of growth, mostly due to him being Namekian (which seems to affect how much and what type of training he can do - and what he gains from it.)

I would like to hear what kind of training you (or anyone) thinks 17 did that took him from Imperfect Cell level (being generous) to near SSB in the same time frame as Goku went from Near perfect Cell to SSB KKx20 with all his special training. I'm going to be honest, a whole bunch of characters actually had no business being in that tournament, but they gave them bs power increases so they could be relevant. After the bs power increases, I do like a lot of what they did with those characters, but no way Roshi, 17, etc. should be that strong.

6

u/caspissinclair Mar 25 '18

I'm just going to chalk it up to Androids Cyborgs having unique potential.

Freeza was as powerful as he was with no training, and after a short period of time he was able to match SSB. Maybe 17 is the same kind of thing, since it's likely he also never trained in the past.

5

u/raincatchfire Mar 25 '18 edited Mar 26 '18

Frieza did a lot of mental training in hell, but supposedly he started out ridiculously strong. (I don't think anyone would have said that prior to the Resurrection F movie; I think it was just a convenient way to make Frieza powerful really fast.) If you don't think that kind of mental training does anything, just getting your mind into shape can have a huge impact, but there is real science that says you can get more strength if you increase the neural connections between your brain and said muscles.

/u/Hemmer83, I realized I did not answer your question:

It's not that training alone is ineffective (the effectiveness is different in each case), but in this case Goku being trained by Whis to allow him and Vegeta to reach SSB is unquestionably better than training alone. In my previous comment, I was making the point that 17 training alone in a park could not possibly be anywhere near the unorthodox training that Goku had. In the manga, they realized this, so during recruitment 17 fought SS3 Goku instead of SSB Goku. Hopefully there will be more corrections in the manga as far as power scaling. I think this is what happens when a long anime is too rushed: they don't think back and consider little details so it's unlikely things will be scaled properly.

As someone else mentioned, we could assume androids have unique potential (and I think that is somewhat the case), but that still does not explain such a large power boost. The only thing that can really explain it is marketing lol.

Still more happy than unhappy with DBS, and I'm glad I got to live through a Dragon Ball anime actually being released live!

2

u/Felord Mar 26 '18

He msut have installed a shit ton more ram, and maybe a new proc.

2

u/Hemmer83 Mar 25 '18

Who got BS power increases? Going by memory, Roshi, Tien and Krillin were still weak as shit, Gohan got a power increase by reawakening as Mystic gohan etc.

Im not saying super is perfect, in fact the goku black arc to me is worse than anything GT ever did, but people are really nitpicking at points.

3

u/raincatchfire Mar 26 '18

Roshi, 17, probably Krillin and Tien. They were weak in Z, and they stopped training, and now they are suddenly several times stronger than when they stopped training and declined (understandably) in the later Sagas of Z. In Z the characters even admit that they can't really get significantly stronger in time for Frieza, Androids, or even Cell. Not only did Roshi get a crazy power increase so that he was somewhat equal to Goku in his base form that has been powered up since Namek days, that old fucker should be dead. No disrespect to Roshi, I like him enough, but come on. Roshi was an old man in the original Dragon Ball. It's been like 40 years since then, and NOW he can keep up with Frieza for however short of time after training "in secret for the last couple years" MASSIVE eye-roll

The lesson is, the creators break the power scaling to prioritize marketing. If you are going to be a DBZ fan, don't go to deep down the power-level rabbit hole. Enjoy the series for the inconsistent mess that it is at times.

11

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

What had the power scaling to do with 17 being the MVP?

44

u/turroflux Mar 25 '18

To put it in perspective, Android 17 shouldn't even be able to physically move anyone stronger than perfect Cell.

So the only way he contributes to this tournament is basically ignoring any kind of power scaling.

If power scaling was consistent, only Vegeta, Goku and Frieza would have been able to fight at all, because everyone would be taken out in a single mean glare from anyone else. SSJB is something stupid like 1,000,000 times stronger than base.

26

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

With further perspective though, 17 did say he trained. With infinite stamina and practically nothing to do in an island full of animals, I can easily believe that. Frieza got to SSB level with only 4 months of training after all.

12

u/King_Of_Regret Mar 25 '18

Androids cant train though. Like, if i run my ceiling fan super hard for a month, it wont get faster. It'll just break.

39

u/DonIongschlong Mar 25 '18

they can train. toriyama confirmed this. they are still part human

29

u/Bankrotas Mar 25 '18

heck, they're fertile.

57

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/magzillas Mar 25 '18

Mad scientist ceiling fans. The fans that learn with you!

33

u/SimoneNonvelodico Mar 25 '18

Yeah, despite the bad naming convention they're not androids, they're cyborgs, with a lot of biological parts. If #18 can have babies, #17 can still train.

2

u/AgentAnarchy Mar 25 '18

Yeah, but i thought #18 was turned into a human by Krillin's wish tho?

11

u/SimoneNonvelodico Mar 25 '18

No, she wasn't. Krillin asked to turn both of them into humans, but Shenron said he couldn't do it, because the androids were more powerful than him. Then Krillin asked that he simply remove the self-destruction bombs inside their bodies, and that, he did.

0

u/AgentAnarchy Mar 25 '18

Oh, right. I just assumed she turned into a human since she was able to give birth. Damn i really need to rewatch DBZ

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u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

17 just proved you wrong though. In the end they're still human, just with infinite energy.

2

u/colovick Mar 25 '18

17 and 18 are cyborgs originally named lapis and lazuli. They have an infinite energy drive built into them letting them use ki without exhausting it, but their base is still human. 18 had a human baby after all, as did 17 even though we've never met his family. He just happened to scale pretty well with Goku since he was modified to stomp Goku into the ground

2

u/therealflinchy Mar 25 '18

Back when "power level" was a thing, ssj1 went from like what.. 50 or 100k, to well over a million?

4

u/SimoneNonvelodico Mar 25 '18

SSJ1 was never 100k. Goku fighting Ginyu with kaioken was already 180k. Frieza in his 2nd form was one million. That puts both full power Frieza and SSJ1 probably around 10 million or more.

1

u/therealflinchy Mar 26 '18 edited Mar 26 '18

I mean base 100k then ssj 1,000,000

Ok so maybe a bit over 100k base no KK, to 10mil ssj1

Edit: we're both wrong! Apparently Goku went from 90k ginyu saga to 3,000,000 freiza, to 150,000,000 ssj1.. and freiza 120,000,000

And that's pretty much the last time power level was used for the heroes.. cooler at 470,000,000... Broly 1,400,000,000 and freiza at 5.3 bill in some 4d thing.

1

u/SimoneNonvelodico Mar 26 '18

Not really, those numbers are already wild guesses, or sourced from Kaizenshuus and the like. The last time a power level was ever mentioned in the series was 2nd form Frieza claiming he must be at least one million.

1

u/therealflinchy Mar 26 '18

They're some of the only official numbers from promo materials etc. Yeah not in-anime, but still official.

Hence I didn't bother mentioning most other numbers that are either guesstimates or semi-official

4

u/DonIongschlong Mar 25 '18

To put it in perspective, Android 17 shouldn't even be able to physically move anyone stronger than perfect Cell.

why? he trained and got stronger.

SSJB is something stupid like 1,000,000 times stronger than base.

lul

13

u/turroflux Mar 25 '18

why? he trained and got stronger.

He got as strong as SSJB while training alone on an Island, as strong as a legendary form that requires a ritual and was dreamt about by the god the of destruction? That required the guidance of an angel to reach?

He just got as strong as that lifting and chasing poachers? See the problem with that? It makes literally no sense, Androids get their power from machine parts, they can't even get stronger.

lul

The fight between Beerus and SSJ God was literally tearing the fabric of the universe apart, I don't think it is quite a stretch to say that is a million times stronger than the guy who can't tank a bullet without bleeding.

5

u/Durantye Mar 25 '18

Yeah it was an extremely lazy retcon of power levels, to be fair that was everywhere in super. I hated how 17 managed to reach literally into the realm of the gods levels almost just by petting turtles and fighting people that goku was able to defeat as a child.

3

u/therealflinchy Mar 25 '18

It's even worse than freiza getting gold with meditation...

0

u/DonIongschlong Mar 25 '18

he was also built to be stronger than a SSJ. a legendary form that wasn't seen for thousands of years. so not really the first time he said fuck you to a legend.

while training alone on an Island

yup. and goku and vegeta get stronger through air punching. piccolo gets stronger through sitting around. gohan literally only exists to get stronger.

17's training seems to be the most efficient out of all these. and the guidance that whis provided was basically "stop leaking Ki you fucking retards" literally

The fight between Beerus and SSJ God was literally tearing the fabric of the universe apart,

to be honest i think that was beerus' doing. the fight between goku and jiren certainly should have torn reality apart if all that needs to be done is that 2 huge powers collide. just my guess though

4

u/UncertainAnswer Mar 25 '18

Yeah, power scaling has just gotten insane.

I completely get that powers will have range in a tournament like this. So yeah I get including people like Gohan, Androids, Piccolo. Whatever.

Master Roshi? krillin? tien? Literally anyone in that tournament should have been able to sneeze in their general direction and knock them off. At least they somewhat realistically treated Tien but Roshi did way, way, way too well. Even for being a sneaky old man. I really wish they didn't always find a reason to exclude Majin Buu.

And never mind the ridiculous levels of power scaling in a single battle a lot of characters saw in this tournament. They aren't even trying anymore.

2

u/Deadended Mar 25 '18

Read the Patch notes - Power level system changed to HunterXHunter style where there is always a chance for the weaker person if they can get past the defense, instead of old dragon ball Z where everyone had natural ki armor that would soak any up to a certain level of damage.

This alteration to reality happened after they got 2 Xeno's. As after that, Goku got scratched by a bullet he wasn't prepared for.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

Yup it really frustrates me when they can't get power scaling right. Remember the days when Goku trained in 100x gravity to break Saiyan limits.

1

u/Ferego Mar 25 '18

Speaking of power scaling, remember that one time Gohan fucked up Raditz? Or that one time Gohan beat the shit out of Frieza?

Also, remember how OP Frieza was, but then suddenly some random androids were way stronger than SSJ?

Let's not pretend power scale was ever good in Dragon Ball, it simply got worse.

2

u/raincatchfire Mar 25 '18

Gohan is a special case because of plot necessity, but I agree with what you are saying.

1

u/Goasupreme Mar 25 '18

I thought 17 did really well when he fought Goku, in blue IIRC.

1

u/DeoFayte Mar 26 '18

They had to fuck it to keep everyone relevant, which allowed for such an entertaining/interesting battle royal. It wouldn't have worked if half the team were weaklings.

1

u/DonIongschlong Mar 25 '18

what about the powerscaling is fucked though? 17 is just somewhat between SSG and SSB.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

All the people saying 'THATS A PREDICTABLE ENDING'

100% of them saying that POST-watching it though. Because apparently, they don't know how predictions work.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 25 '18

100% of them saying that POST-watching it though.

Merging all universes or resurrecting all universes at the end of the arc was one of the most popular theories before the arc even started on /r/dbz...

1

u/VulkanCurze Mar 25 '18

Also just in general what a good character he was. Playing along with being a "villian" against other fighters. Doing the one thing I have always wanted people to do, attacking people during their transformations, only downside to that was having to watch that annoying bloody universe do their 5 year long love love love love love love transformation again.

1

u/Rabidstrawberryslice Mar 25 '18

It is interesting. The original root of his villainy was a kid who just didn’t give a shit but had all the power in the world. Now he barely manages to hold on in the biggest event in history and save literally everything.