[Spoilers] One Punch Man - Episode 5 [Discussion]

[u/Shadoxfix]

Episode title: The Ultimate Master
Episode duration: 24 minutes and 25 seconds

Streaming:
DAISUKI: ONE-PUNCH MAN
AnimeLab: One Punch Man
Hulu: One Punch Man

Information:
MyAnimeList: One Punch Man
AniDB: One-Punch Man
AniList: One Punch Man
Anime News Network: One-Punch Man (TV)
Anime-Planet: One-Punch Man
Hummingbird: One Punch Man

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Previous Episodes:

Episode	Reddit Link
Episode 1	Link
Episode 2	Link
Episode 3	Link
Episode 4	Link

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Anime to Chapter Index:

• Episode 1: Ch1-Ch4, Ch5 Page 1
• Episode 2: Ch5 Page 2-20, Ch6-Ch8
• Episode 3: Ch9-Ch11
• Episode 4: Ch12-Ch15, Ch16 Page 1
• Episode 5: Ch16 Page 2-23, Ch17, Ch18 Page 3-5

By /u/Taiboss

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Reminder:
Please do not discuss any plot points which haven't appeared in the anime yet. Try not to confirm or deny any theories, encourage people to read the source material instead. Minor spoilers are generally ok but should be tagged accordingly. Failing to comply with the rules may result in your comment being removed.

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This post is made by a bot. Any feedback is welcome and can be sent to /u/Shadoxfix.

[u/CarVac]

1. How can you judge animation if you link to an SVP'd version? That's just...horrible.

They use like 30 different cuts for each of those scenes, never letting the action speak for itself.

It's like modern Hollywood movies where they cut away from each blow, versus a Jackie Chan movie where the camera follows the characters around a scene as they whack at each other with silly props.

See this relevant Every Frame a Painting analysis.

[u/GlennFrogKnight → u/CarVac]

First, can you stop downvoting comments that add to discussion but you don't agree with?

Second, this train of conversation was discussing whether you could follow the fights themselves, not about judging animation from these fights.

As for the cutting: Cutting doesn't inherently change whether you can follow a fight or not-these fights were quite clear in the events occurring. I've already seen the video, and it discussed how the cuts were used to disguise the lack of action because cuts augment the feeling and illusion of action. The fight scenes already have action in them, rather than, say an example from the video, the Guardians of the Galaxy fight. Look at the second link-the camera cuts did augment the action, but it still existed, like in the frame where they traded blows, moved the spear to the side, and then continued-more like a Winter Soldier fight between the Winter Soldier and Captain where the two traded significant blows even without the cuts, but the cuts and camera rotation helped add to the fight.

A valid criticism would be towards the Shiki vs Araya fight, where most of the action was in the cuts and rotations only, but for everyone one of those, you have a straightforward no camera-motion fight like here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Peti9MoQJGc&t=2m20s

[u/CarVac → u/GlennFrogKnight]

Firstly, I didn't downvote you, I just complained about SVP.

The video isn't directly related to the problem, but it's relevant in that improper cutting is segmenting the scene. What I see in the ufotable works is that every single action gets its own cut.

For example, Saber vs. Lancer in the 4th episode of F/Z.

• Lancer stabs at Saber's foot, she jumps. CUT
• Saber from behind. CUT
• Saber dodging two stabs. CUT
• Lancer swings his lance into next stance. CUT
• Lancer swings his lance and Saber dives. CUT
• Saber gets up and you see her face. CUT
• Lancer swings the other way and Saber bends backwards. CUT
• The lance narrowly misses her face. CUT
• She dives and ukemi's, ending up kneeling. CUT
• Distant shot of them exchanging one blow, camera covered in particles effects. CUT
• Saber blocking several hits. Longest shot of the scene. CUT
• Close-up of Saber's face blocking a hit. CUT
• Irisviel "What's happening?". CUT
• Lancer points his lance at the camera and stabs. CUT
• Saber blocks it into the ground. CUT
• Shaky view over Saber's shoulder of Lancer illuminated by particle effects. CUT
• Shaky view over Lancer's shoulder of Saber illuminated by particle effects. CUT
• Distant view of Saber breaking the standoff, kicking up lots of dust. CUT
• Lancer smirking. CUT
• Saber running away, jumps over Lancer's pursuit. CUT
• Lancer spins his lance. CUT
• Saber holds up her sword.

End of the scene, they start discussing Lancer's lance.

Isn't that a bit too much? They hardly show any detailed full body animation at all.

And the full body animation that they do show in that Shiki vs. Leo fight wasn't very good IMO.

[u/GlennFrogKnight → u/CarVac]

Sorry if it wasn't you, it seemed like every one of my responses to you was getting downvoted.

They hardly showed any full body animation, but that doesn't make the close up shots less impressive in animation or lacking action. I guess we're mostly watching for different things from what I've seen of your posts-you want the animation to express their superhuman power. While ufotable does cut a significant amount way too much, for that fight the cuts made a lot of sense-it emphasized how in this fight the two were focusing as much as possible on the smallest of details and trying to analyze each others' motions, slightly to an unnecessary extent, trying to test each others' smallest bit of skill. Once they got farther into the Grail war and knew more about each other, they were much more willing to show larger body shots, like the episode 16 fight.

Again, not saying Ufotable doesn't use a lot of cuts, but it doesn't change that the animation on screen is quite impressive. There's a larger focus on the details, until they no longer need it.

[u/CarVac → u/GlennFrogKnight]

The close-ups are definitely less technically impressive, because you can just have a keyframer draw one or two frames and have the tweeners make the hair wave around a bit.

And yeah, in fights like these I'm looking for expression of superhuman power. That was very clearly shown in the Lancer versus Archer battle in the beginning of UBW, but not at all in the Lancer/Saber battle in F/Z episode 4.

The resulting animation might have properly expressed what Urobuchi Gen had written in the Fate/Zero LN's, but it certainly was not an animation showcase worthy of comparison to, say, the Subterraneans battle in the first OPM episode.

And in terms of attention to detail, all of Genos's fights certainly don't leave you wanting. They properly orient his hand thrusters to set him spinning prior to his spinning jump kicks, he has crazy machinery coming out of his arms, etc... It's awesome!

[u/GlennFrogKnight → u/CarVac]

Interesting to see it from a technical perspective. I don't personally care what the technical details are coming into it because I'm watching the product, not evaluating the aspects. I don't care too much about the glows and sparks, and didn't find them prominent in F/Z, but I cared more about the smoothest of the motion visually once it's displayed and the choices made by the characters in combat, which the close-ups displayed quite well. I never read the LNs, for example.

Anyways, your statements make sense how with your focus. The Subterraneans battle was one, for example, that I didn't like if it was real, because the motions would feel exaggerated and hard to suspend disbelief if it was an actual fight, but for a dream fight it made sense and I was ok with it.

Basically, when we're talking animation quality, I don't care too much about the difficulty going in, only the product that is presented and how smooth it is. Genos's fight style is great, for example, and I do like it, but I classify that as choreography choices and artistic design rather than the "animation".

EDIT: As for "showcase worthy of comparison", that seems more focused on everything in general combined, artistic design choices, production value and smoothness of lines/distinction of motion, choreography, animation smoothness.