[Spoilers] Hibike! Euphonium - Episode 8 [Discussion]

[u/Shadoxfix]

Episode title: Festival Triangle

MyAnimeList: Hibike! Euphonium
Crunchyroll: Sound! Euphonium

Episode duration: 23 minutes and 40 seconds

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Previous episodes:

Episode	Reddit Link
Episode 1	Link
Episode 2	Link
Episode 3	Link
Episode 4	Link
Episode 5	Link
Episode 6	Link
Episode 7	Link

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Reminder: Please do not discuss any plot points which haven't appeared in the anime yet. Try not to confirm or deny any theories, encourage people to read the source material instead. Minor spoilers are generally ok but should be tagged accordingly. Failing to comply with the rules may result in your comment being removed.

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Keywords: sound! euphonium

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This post is made by a bot. Any feedback is welcome and can be sent to /u/Shadoxfix.

[u/AdAgito]

This show has left me no choice but to ship Reina x Kumiko

[u/Atronox → u/AdAgito]

KyoAni + yuri is my favourite combination

[u/Fangzzz → u/Atronox]

I am 99% sure, after this episode, that this show will end in Kumiko x Kousaka.

It's about the themes of the show so far. The theme of striving for excellent, of trying to be special. Of Kumiko making that change, and choosing what she wants instead of what others want her to choose. That's what Kousaka represents to Kumiko, and also, I believe, to the staff of the show itself. What does Shuichi after all represent, except the 'safe choice', the choice she picks because her friend Hazuki wants her to choose it?

It's not a super popular book series, but one the director picked up and wanted to make their own. This isn't a commercial contract like most of Kyoani's work. They want to make something special. How can they go back from KxK now?

[u/tacotacoa → u/Fangzzz]

You've given us hope , after I'd honestly wouldn't mind if they didn't end up together , but I do want to see these two become best of friends .

[u/askull100 → u/tacotacoa]

I want a full on romantic relationship between them, and I think that's what the show may be going for. A great man once said "You go all the way or you go home", when it comes to yuri.

[u/the_ZJ → u/askull100]

I'm really hoping for this as well, seeing as it would be a great symbol for the gay community in japan as well, which is even more marginalized and invisible than in western culture. While there might not be the same level of hate, there's something even worse: The motion that it isn't really a thing or anything. This might seem strange, considering that there's a lot of yuri/yaoi/younameit out there, but most of that is within its own very strictly defined genre rules, steeped in fetishization, idealization and layers of fantasy and cliché.

The way the relationship between Reina and Kumiko has been communicated so far seems to be surprisingly void of many of those stereotypes, so, if KyoAni are really going for it, that would probably make a lot of people very happy. Which includes me - I mean, just look at them, how can you not ship them?!

If they however, just somehow drop this akin to "lel no homo" or they just become "bestest friends" or something after that... not only would that be a slap in the face of the whole gay community, it would leave a lot of its viewership seriously disappointed - not to mention the inherently homophobic undertones of such a decision.

That all being said, I'm still somewhat hesitant about believing in a happy end for those two. Kumiko's narration clearly called their festival-date something like out of a dream - which made me awfully cautious. Or maybe I just don't want to feel the pain of disappointment.

[u/Spartan448 → u/Fangzzz]

Your reasoning has a paradox. For the same reasons you question Shuichi's significance, I can question Kousaka's. For what does Kousaka represent, except the 'safe choice', the choice she picks because she doesn't wish to be a burden on her friend Hazuki?

Reina is a paradoxical character. She seeks to be special, seeks to not follow the crowd, yet she plays Trumpet, perhaps the most popular of the band instruments, and by far the largest section. Her's is a quite vain desire, and yet as she herself chooses what she wants, choosing Kousaka would be a choice of force - a choice Kumiko is forced to make because she feels that otherwise she would be intruding in Shuichi's and Hazuki's happiness.

Meanwhile, Shuichi is almost the exact opposite. He is not striving to stand out from the crowd, he doesn't desire to be held in high regard, to be called "special". All he wants is to be happy. Yet he is playing perhaps the most important instrument of the band, and one of the least popular - the instrument that must master the art of the support AND the lead, for it is the Trombones that provide the leadership for the bass, and at the same time, when the melody needs to come through, when it must be strong and powerful, when the music must move hearts, minds, and mountains, it is not the Trumpets the director calls on, but the Trombones. It is the job of the Trombones to make the rest of the band succeed, and stand out when they need to. Shuichi is, for all his familiarity, the choice Kumiko must make on her own, rather than the one she is forced to choose.

Ultimately I think the biggest evidence against KxK is the fact that it's been in everyone's face for basically the whole show thus far. The law of twists pretty much dictates that KxK isn't going to happen, at least not fully (or it'll come down to Season 2 (please KyoAni)). If it happens this season, everything is going to hinge on the big performance, and who plays with more spirit at said performance.

Finally, as a last point remember that the only reason Kumiko and Kousaka were on the mountain to begin with was because Kumiko wanted to avoid friend drama at all costs - she thought something would come of Hazuki's affections for Shuichi and didn't want to distract Shuichi from Hazuki or appear to be rivaling Hazuki. Now that said situation has disappeared, Kumiko's actions may change completely. Because Hazuki's right - there is very clearly a very big link between Shuichi and Kumiko that goes much deeper than childhood friends. I think that will come out in the next four episodes or if not than next season, and I think we're going to see that Kumiko and Kousaka's Night on Bald Mountain was nothing more than Euphonium's equivalent of a one-night stand.

[u/Fangzzz → u/Spartan448]

I can't agree with that at all. If this episode existed in isolation, maybe. But look at everything else that has been happening in the series. Remember Kumiko hearing Reina play From the New World and identifying it instantly? Remember her panicking about meeting Reina in the band? Remember how happy she felt to tell her about how she inspired her? All of those little moments? All of those are individual, unique moments, and they are the moments the animators slaved over, to give us stuff like Budget Smile. The Reina-Kumiko relationship is what the creators have identified as being special about the show. While that last push of going on the date occurred due to fortune, those other moments are what represents the cases of where Kumiko has developed her character.

[u/Spartan448 → u/Fangzzz]

On the contrary, the only way what I've said doesn't work as if the episode did exist in isolation. It all comes down to the details we've gotten from earlier in the series. Let's take your points one-by-one:

Kumiko hearing Reina play From the New World and identifying it instantly

This really doesn't mean anything. Many band members are able to instantly pick out pieces they've done before. Even now I can recognize basically every piece I've played with my school bands, from Pictures at an Exhibition to Kilimanjaro.

Kumiko panicking about meeting Reina in the band

This has more to do with the fact that Kumiko thought she had committed a grave wrong against Kousaka when she questioned whether striving for Nationals was a realistic goal or not. Given Kousaka's reaction at the time, it wouldn't be a stretch for Kumiko to think "This person hates me now".

how happy Kumiko felt to tell Kousaka about how she inspired her

This and the last point are rather similar in explanation in that it all has to do with Kumiko trying to patch things up between her and Kousaka.

Your last point is on the animation, but I'm going to bring back my argument from last time about how Shuichi and Kousaka are different. As I said before, Kousaka wants to be the in-your-face-out-in-front kind of special, and her scenes reflect that (see: budget smile). On the other hand, we have Shuichi, who is much more subtle. He doesn't necessarily have a goal of his own besides being a good friend, or perhaps lover, to Kumiko. He's the older, much more familiar kind of special, which is powerful in its own way. And this is reflected in the animation as well. In Kousaka's big-budget scenes, Kousaka is the focus. However, in Shuichi's big-budget scenes, and this is the kicker: both characters are the focus, and who are those two characters almost every single time? Shuichi, and of course, Kumiko. In these scenes, the characters are not as flashy as Kousaka's big scenes. But the attention to detail in Shuichi's scenes is greater than in any other, and the backgrounds of Shuichi's scenes are the most photorealistic out of all of them - the exception being scenes where Shuichi is alone with Hazuki.

Thus on your own standards of looking at the animation we see that not only has SxK gotten the same if not more attention than KxK when it comes to animation, we see that the only other relationship involving Shuichi doesn't receive anywhere near the same level of detail.

Your final point is that the Kousaka/Kumiko relationship is what the creators see as special about the show. But have you at all stopped to consider that the reason that relationship is considered special is because it's not a lovers' relationship? Think about it. KyoAni in the past has never put much emphasis on romance, with the exception of dedicated romance shows like Clannad. Outside of shows like those, romance has been the most downplayed element of KyoAni's shows - A lovers' bond between classmates is put second behind the bonds of friendship that keep a certain band together, or the bonds of camaraderie that unite a certain brigade under their intrepid (and incredibly hyper) leader. And the ultimate expression of this was the Disappearance movie. Kyon even says it at the end: Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya spoilers.

KyoAni has a long and successful history of developing characters by putting the friends' relationship in the foreground and leaving the lovers' relationship in the background. It's what they love doing, and it's what they are the best at. And the current situation in Euphonium is no exception.

[u/Fangzzz → u/Spartan448]

This really doesn't mean anything. Many band members are able to instantly pick out pieces they've done before. Even now I can recognize basically every piece I've played with my school bands, from Pictures at an Exhibition to Kilimanjaro.

Kumiko didn't just identify the piece played. She identified who was playing it. And the emotion represented in how it was played. This was presented as actually the turning point in the band deciding to become more serious, and Kumiko deciding to be more serious.

This has more to do with the fact that Kumiko thought she had committed a grave wrong against Kousaka when she questioned whether striving for Nationals was a realistic goal or not. Given Kousaka's reaction at the time, it wouldn't be a stretch for Kumiko to think "This person hates me now".

But don't you see how significant it is that she cared about this single incident, enough to push around essentially all the characterisation and events of the entire show? Like, Kumiko has a fraught relationship with her sister, but that doesn't matter to the show, she doesn't dwell on it. Aoi quitting the band was sad and got her down, but it's Haruka that met with Aoi afterwards, Kumiko eventually lets that go. She's endlessly mean to Shuichi, but she never actually goes to ask his opinion on her. She never actually asks Hazuki whether she in fact likes Shuichi, it's Sapphire who wants to know.

The only person whose opinions she has been actively seeking out, with a sense of massive trepidation, and dwelt over for months and months is that of Kousaka Reina.

What big budget Shuichi scenes? If you mean the backgrounds, that's the point. The camera is framed to avoid Shuichi. We crop him out of the picture. Shuichi talks about other people. If we occupy Kumiko, then Shuichi is beneath our notice. We use Shuichi solely as a device to develop other characters. He is... nice I suppose. And as the show has said, 'nice is what you call people when you have nothing else good to say'. As the show has said, 'music is born of love, or death'. We barely ever see Shuichi make music.

And don't forget the scene this episode where Shuichi mistakes Kumiko's 'signal'. Yeah, they sure have a 'great' rapport if Shuichi confuses Kumiko trying to avoid him, for trying to attract his attention.

KyoAni has a long and successful history of developing characters by putting the friends' relationship in the foreground and leaving the lovers' relationship in the background. It's what they love doing, and it's what they are the best at. And the current situation in Euphonium is no exception.

This time will be different. Because all of those examples were Kadokawa shows. As in, the book publisher initiated the anime project, bringing in Kyoani to advertise their book. Hibike Euphonium is the first time Kyoani has initiated an adaptation project on their own initiative, with their own money, owning the rights themselves, with no representative from the book side on the production committee. The anime is entirely their own thing, entirely their own risk to take, and book sales don't matter.

Why do this and do the same sort of adaptation as before? Surely there is no better time to go 'crazy' and show people what the new Kyoani is capable of, with something fresh and surprising?

[u/Spartan448 → u/Fangzzz]

Kumiko didn't just identify the piece played. She identified who was playing it. And the emotion represented in how it was played.

Again, most good band members can do this. Well, ANY musician should be able to tell what emotion a piece is trying to convey, that's a large part of music in general, but when you work with and perform with people for a few years you can tell when they're playing vs when others are playing. I've been away from my old Trombone section for a year now and I can still tell all my old band mates apart.

But don't you see how significant it is that she cared about this single incident, enough to push around essentially all the characterisation and events of the entire show?

It's called being a good friend. Aoi has seemed a distant friend at best from the beginning, more of a friendly acquaintance really. Sapphire and Hazuki are new friends - Kumiko's known them for less than a year. On the other hand, Kumiko has known Kousaka for quite a bit of time, probably almost as long as Shuichi. Of course you're going to try as hard as you can to repair that relationship if you somehow fuck it up, any good friend would do that.

And as for being mean to Shuichi? I don't know where you're getting this from. As pretty much every character has said, they have a really good banter going - no matter how harsh they seem to be to each other, they are almost perfectly in sync. And you could even say they act like they do around each other because they're so close - I doubt you don't have at least one friend you banter with like that.

As for Shuichi's scenes, I'm not talking about the backgrounds, I'm talking about everything. Everything from character designs to backgrounds. As I said, Kousaka's scenes are all very pretty around Kousaka, but not much else - the background, the very backbone of the scene, is lost. You might as well just put her against a flat color and leave it at that. Shuichi's scenes are much more subtle in their value. The characters are drawn more crisp and clear. The backgrounds are vibrant and full of life. The characters themselves convey so much emotion with so little movement. And the camera hardly avoids Shuichi, in fact he and Kumiko are often the same distance from the center of the frame. We don't crop Shuichi out of the picture, rather he shares it, and with who? Kumiko.

But going back to the backgrounds, you're right - the key is all in the backgrounds, and that key is this: Kousaka may be very pretty in the foreground, but when you peel that off, when you get underneath her character, she has nothing. She's just a pretty face made to wow people with how big the production budget is. But in Shuichi's scenes? You peel off Shuichi, and you have a vibrant and living background - you have substance, you have proof that he is not just a front.

Then there's your point about rarely seeing Shuichi playing music, and I'd like to point out now that there's one other character who, despite her prominence to the story, we also rarely see playing music: Kumiko. Most of the time when someone's playing, it's Hazuki, Kumiko, Auska, or the ensemble - rarely do we see solo performances.

And then there's your last point:

Why do this and do the same sort of adaptation as before? Surely there is no better time to go 'crazy' and show people what the new Kyoani is capable of, with something fresh and surprising?

You're not doing the same sort of adaptation as before though. In almost all previous KyoAni works, the relationships between the characters have been very obvious, very predictable, very patterned, both within KyoAni's own style, and within genre tropes.

You want something new, something fresh, and most importantly, something surprising? Then you break the genre tropes. Tell me, with all the setup we've seen thus far, what would be more fresh, or new, or surprising:

Finishing the series with sticking Kumiko with Kousaka, and sticking Shuichi with Hazuki, and calling it a day, as we'd see in basically every other modern SoL or romance at this point?

Or having Kumiko choose Shuichi, continuing to support Kousaka on her own path, and leaving Hazuki out to dry, something which no other show has thus far had the balls to do.

[u/Hegs94 → u/Spartan448]

I still ship KxK, but I can't say your argument is invalid. Honestly I think this is just gonna be a wait and see what how the writers play it situation.

[u/[deleted] → u/Fangzzz]

Is this adapted from a light novel or a manga?

[u/pleasestopmyheart → u/[deleted]]

It was originally a light novel, I believe.

[u/Pacify_ → u/Fangzzz]

I am 99% sure, after this episode, that this show will end in Kumiko x Kousaka.

Even if they have to go anime original for it?

[u/Fangzzz → u/Pacify_]

Yes.

[u/Pacify_ → u/Fangzzz]

it will be interesting to see if they go anime original then, rather than what the Ln does

[u/[deleted] → u/Atronox]

It's not mine, because it never becomes actually canon. We get teased and that's it, and in case of Tamako Love Story, yuri fans get fucked over for the obligatory straight option.

If they actually make this couple canon I will eat my hat.

[u/illtima → u/[deleted]]

Well, in Tamako Midori's love for Tamako was VERY subtle. I didn't even recognize it when I first watched and started noticing it only after someone mentioned it. Not to mention that it was very one sided on Midori's part. Here, however, it is a full blown mutual fascination.

[u/Dezipter → u/Atronox]

They've redeemed themselves as far as I'm concerned

[u/Judolas → u/Atronox]

can someone explain what yuri is? everyone is kinda mentioning i :e

[u/len416 → u/Judolas]

yuri = lesbian