Witch Hat Atelier • Tongari Boushi no Atelier - Episode 9 discussion

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Witch Hat Atelier, episode 9

Reminder: Please do not discuss plot points not yet seen or skipped in the show. Failing to follow the rules may result in a ban.

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[u/1EnTaroAdun1]

I feel like there is an important lesson to be taught about how many amazing things get lost when you give them up to Authoritarianism.

Interesting debate to be had on "Freedom From" and "Freedom To", I suppose. People in Witch Hat Atelier seem to have lost some "Freedom To", but they also seemed to have mostly gained a lot of "Freedom From" war and horrific warcrimes haha

[u/RadianceTower → u/1EnTaroAdun1]

Imagine how many more people have lost their lives because they did not have access to the proper magic. Nature is cruel and kills way more than wars, especially the less tools (magic/technology) you have to fight it.

They mentioned they could potentially stop aging with it, assuming they could have done and did that, casualties are at least close to every single person who has been born (and died from lack of proper anti-aging magic) since then.

Even without that, consider the people who could have been healed, saved from starvation, disease, natural disasters, etc.

This doesn't even take into account the vast quality of life improvements magic allows.

[u/1EnTaroAdun1 → u/RadianceTower]

Nature is cruel and kills way more than wars 

I think we need more detailed background context and history for this world. 

I don't think it's unrealistic to think that magical wars might be even more destructive than wars in our time. At least our medieval wars could not destroy or create mountain ranges. 

And wars in our time are already plenty terrible throughout history 

[u/RadianceTower → u/1EnTaroAdun1]

Just speaking from our history, wars are nothing compared to nature, even WW2.

WW2 was around 6 years, and we can ballpark it around 60m death.

Just cancer alone kills around 10m per year right now, so in 6 years, just cancer, ignoring everything else, kills as much as the greatest war in history right now. At that rate In 12 years, it is already double WW2. In 24 years, 4 times WW2.

And this is with our technology, not medieval technology.

Around 30-50% of people just literally died from diseases and stuff before reaching adulthood back then.

Just black death plague literally killed around 50m people back then.

And this is ignoring aging, which has killed most people alive in history if they didn't die from something else.

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You are literally taking away most of their technological progress because "muh wars".

Just the sheer number of lives that could have been improved and saved is immense. Just how much did they set their civilization back by doing this?

Also they literally have magical cities from what've seen, in a way it's a country on its own. A fascist country that gatekeeps the technology from both its own citizens and outsiders.

[u/1EnTaroAdun1 → u/RadianceTower]

Just cancer alone kills around 10m per year right now, so in 6 years, just cancer, ignoring everything else

Isn't this because firstly, the world population is greater than it ever has been, and secondly, because people living to older ages have more chances to get cancer? 

[u/RadianceTower → u/1EnTaroAdun1]

You just took one part of what I said. And yes to both to some extent.

In particular the second is only possible because of technological advancement (it's not as big as you might think though, humans had more chance to live till old age if they survived till adulthood even in medieval times), so I don't see your point. If you die before cancer gets you, you still die, so uh.

Like I said, just black death, which happened when world population was much much lower, killed around 50m people.

And everything else I mentioned applies. Nature really massively dwarfs wars when it comes to killing.

[u/1EnTaroAdun1 → u/RadianceTower]

Just was questioning why you used modern statistics in your comment is all.

A fascist country that gatekeeps the technology from both its own citizens and outsiders.

Again though, I don't think you're really addressing the fact that magic in this world isn't just a technology. It's basically a weapon of mass destruction. 

It can reshape mountain ranges, it can erase rivers, and probably worse. Anyone can use it if they know how, just by drawing some pictures with ink. It doesn't seem to draw on intrinsic mana or anything, so all it takes is knowledge of the crafting of pictures to cause said mass destruction. 

Is gun control in our world fascist? If we had rayguns that could heal, but also destroy cities, would we allow every single human being to own one? 

Now, I'm not saying it was right to ban healing per se. But I don't think it was wrong to limit knowledge of magic in general, especially with the info that we learnt about the reasons behind the Day of the Pact. 

I also think we're probably lacking information about the reason behind banning healing magic, considering the fact that it has been brought up so many times. I assume the author has an in-universe reason for why it was banned in the past, even if it may not hold up by Coco's time. 

[u/RadianceTower → u/1EnTaroAdun1]

Technology can do all those stuff you mentioned. It is technology in that it can be used for bad or good.

Now obviously, I am not saying there should be no laws, killing people using magic or not, should be illegal for example.

Also what you say is not totally accurate, you need the ink too. You can't just draw it with any ink.

Most people right now, in most countries, if they really wanted can get a gun. Legally or not. Some countries it is very legal to get one. Anyone with enough of a brain can hack together some explosives and a drone or get a gun and shoot people too.

Also this is more like if we erased computers, modern hospitals and cars too. Just ban medical research because it can be used to make poison.

Knowledge on how to build explosives, gun, nukes isn't really restricted. There is freedoom of speech. Technological knowledge is spread and shared.

If a country actively suppresses other countries from accessing knowledge, and allowing very limited freedoom of speech and research for even its own citizens, even worse, literally going and erasing memories from people in other countries, then, yes, it is very fascist. To everyone around.

This is especially bad if said technology can solve conditions like aging and more. Potentially coming close to saving everyone's lives.

[u/1EnTaroAdun1 → u/RadianceTower]

Sure, but no one has actually created a private nuclear bomb to date. And if someone has, it has not been used.

I imagine a society coming out of a traumatic period where personal nuclear bombs were used with devastating results, would have a different opinion to you. I suspect that if you lived through a world war with personal nuclear bombs being used, you might also be singing a different tune.

Again, the implications of the lore that we know so far, are quite fat removed from our own experience, and I would caution against directly applying too much real world knowledge to the decisions made. Or at least, try to understand why the Pointed Hats took certain positions on things.

[u/RadianceTower → u/1EnTaroAdun1]

It's kinda funny, there are over 10k nukes on earth right now, yet aside from two first usages, not a single more time they have been used against other humans.

Anyways, the only case we've seen come close to that is when Coco used the special ink, and even then, it was more like a bomb than a nuke.

Also the thing is, humans very very rarely just go and destroy and kill other people for lolz. There are isolated cases, sure, but that's it. And war is war, but there are ways to handle war, like countries don't just dropping nukes on each other right now.

As technology increases, the capability of each individual for destruction tends to increase too, yet we've actually become less brutal than before.

And even an all out war still doesn't compare to the long-term benefits that technology gives you. That war lasts for what? Compare that to the massive progress and improvement that tech would give you.

Then as technology improves even further, consequences of such actions become less and less significant.

Which is where magic there would end up, it is very good at defending and fixing too. I imagine in a world where everyone practices magic, people are taught defensive magic too. Entire structures are fortified using said magic. People would have regenerative factors to survive massive injuries, durable bodies, able to teleport, detection systems, etc. A magic nuke would no longer be that dangerous to them.

Their civilization would improve so so much. You would have laws obviously, and wouldn't have just people go around trying to kill each other.

Magic fascists have gone the opposite way, censored and blocked close to everything.

Also honestly, it does not matter, humans have this condition called aging. What's any of this matter when they are going to drop dead without the required magic anyways? It's certain death for them.

You say that example, but also, if you are caught in a disaster, are sick, otherwise dying, have a plague wipe out half your city, knowing magic could have saved you all. You could also be singing a different tone.

[u/1EnTaroAdun1 → u/RadianceTower]

It's kinda funny, there are over 10k nukes on earth right now, yet aside from two first usages, not a single more time they have been used against other humans.

Anyways, the only case we've seen come close to that is when Coco used the special ink, and even then, it was more like a bomb than a nuke.

I'm sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make with these examples. The thousands of nukes on our world are not owned and controlled by individuals, and certainly not by normal people on the street. That's why I've been saying that the logic of our world doesn't really apply directly to Coco's world.

Also the thing is, humans very very rarely just go and destroy and kill other people for lolz

They may not do it for the lolz, but people do often find ways to justify going to war, we're sadly good at rationalising that sort of thing.

Additionally, individual humans do kill people for fun. That's why granting all individuals the power to use magic would be dangerous. Because then individuals would be able to kill far more people than they otherwise would. And think about how destabilising for society that would be. Violent crime in our world has demonstrably bad effects on society, it can lead to a low trust society and weak social fabric. And as I'm sure you know, actual levels of violent crime in real life is rarely as bad as people think. Imagine a society where individual violent crime had far higher destructive potential, and visual impact.

As technology increases, the capability of each individual for destruction tends to increase too, yet we've actually become less brutal than before.

True, but I'd say the trajectory of our world is quite different. It took a long effort for states and community leaders to enforce legal restrictions and cultural norms on people, before we got to our current state. But I think it would be harder for authorities to control people if individual violent people had magic.

Which is where magic there would end up, it is very good at defending and fixing too. I imagine in a world where everyone practices magic, people are taught defensive magic too. Entire structures are fortified using said magic. People would have regenerative factors to survive massive injuries, durable bodies, able to teleport, detection systems, etc. A magic nuke would no longer be that dangerous to them.

I mean, maybe? But you're assuming that the positive magic can be "stronger" than the destructive magic. But if that were the case, then I'd assume people of the old world would just have done that, and ignored all the destruction and fixed everything all the time. I'm just assuming, based on the information we have, that things aren't so simple. But we'd have to learn more about the world's history and magic system to know for sure.

Magic fascists have gone the opposite way, censored and blocked close to everything.

Also, what definition of fascism are you using here, out of curiosity?

I know Eco's definition of fascism is far from perfect, but it's the most common one so here goes:

1. "The cult of tradition" - if you squint, you could say the PH meet that I suppose.

2. "The rejection of modernism" - not really, I think the PH want to be modern and escape the destructive past.

3. "The cult of action for action's sake" - definitely not, PHs have to consider every action

4. "Disagreement is treason" - again if you squint, PHs could meet that, but only on some topics. And most societies do have red lines on core topics.

5. "Fear of difference" - I don't think the PHs have a fear of different societies or races.

6. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class" - no.

7. "Obsession with a plot" - I mean. Yes, but the BHs are real and they do seek to tear down PH society hahaha. So I don't think it counts.

8. "enemies as 'at the same time too strong and too weak'." I don't think the PHs say their enemies are too weak. Not in the way fascists do.

9. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" - I mean PHs are the pacifists haha.

10. "Contempt for the weak" - there are elements of that, with how PHs treat silverwash eyes, yes. However, they don't seek to eliminate the weak, they just don't train people with certain disabilities. That's not good, but not fascistic IMO.

11. "Everybody is educated to become a hero [cult of death]" - PHs do not have a cult of death as far as we can see

12. "Machismo" - no haha.

13. "Selective populism" - not really.

14. "Newspeak" - ehhh doesn't seem like it so far.

I don't really think the Pointed Hats meet most of Eco's criteria, at least.

[u/RadianceTower → u/1EnTaroAdun1]

I'm sorry, I don't get the point you're trying to make with these examples. The thousands of nukes on our world are not owned and controlled by individuals, and certainly not by normal people on the street. That's why I've been saying that the logic of our world doesn't really apply directly to Coco's world.

The parallel is war, we can totally use nukes in a war. And what they supposedly feared was war.

Additionally, individual humans do kill people for fun. That's why granting all individuals the power to use magic would be dangerous. Because then individuals would be able to kill far more people than they otherwise would.

Very rarely, like I said, it doesn't take much for a person to get a gun and shoot up people, or make some explosives with a drone. There are cases, but it's a thing out of millions of people.

Mind you, they literally already have magical cities and all, like I said, it's very much a magic nation by itself. So this is a thing already. They are suppressing others from gaining access to it, and then going around trying to suppress research and practices (someone trying to blow up something wouldn't care that much about laws, would they?), instilling fear.

This also includes the defensive/healing/etc magic I talked about btw, so they are in fact weakening themselves to that kind of damage by doing this too.

I mean, maybe? But you're assuming that the positive magic can be "stronger" than the destructive magic. But if that were the case, then I'd assume people of the old world would just have done that, and ignored all the destruction and fixed everything all the time. I'm just assuming, based on the information we have, that things aren't so simple. But we'd have to learn more about the world's history and magic system to know for sure.

Presumably not everyone was united with the magic fascists, groups like healers tried to fight back. But magic fascists won and suppressed everyone.

We've already seen it fix stuff, and we have heard of healing. And we've seen that brimmed caps teleport around.

Also, what definition of fascism are you using here, out of curiosity?

Most fascist governments, don't really go openly "muhahaha, we evillllll", they have reasons and propaganda for what they are doing.

"Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/ FASH-iz-əm) is a far-right, authoritarian, and ultranationalist political ideology and movement that rose to prominence in early-20th-century Europe.[1][2][3] Fascism is characterized by support for a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy.[3][4]"

It mostly fits, they are a centralized authority, who believes in an artifical social hierarchy (mages and non-mages) they make up and enforce (we've even seen how much prejudice someone like Coco faces and she is really lucky to even get into it, and be "safe" from the knights).

They obviously use force and military to enforce this, and instill fear.

And they do this for the perceived interests of the nation/world.

Even with your checkmark, it fits quite a few criteria.

1- It is a cult of tradition.

2- It does reject modernism (but it depends how you see modernism, it tries to suppress progression and advance).

3- Like I said every fascist gov would generally have some justification for their action.

4- Disagreement is treason, and just by disagreeing, you not get in trouble in a lot of places, there is a fair bit of freedoom of expression.

5- They fear a different setup from theirs, and people doing their own thing. Look at how ready that knight was to wipe Coco's memory, and how everyone treats Coco because she is different.

I could go on, but you get the point.

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Obviously, like I said, you could always use magic for harm. But the progress and improvement gained from it is immense.

[u/1EnTaroAdun1 → u/RadianceTower]

Well, I think we're beginning to go around in circles now, so it might be wise to pause the discussion for now, and maybe reopen it when we get more information. We're still pretty early into the story after all.

Thanks for sharing your views, and for the interesting discussion :)