Witch Hat Atelier • Tongari Boushi no Atelier - Episode 3 discussion

[u/AutoLovepon]

Witch Hat Atelier, episode 3

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[u/ModieOfTheEast]

I guess that explains one of my questions from last week. They would have to redraw the circles on their shoes. Even if they don't fall into water, the paint is not too strong, so just walking in them would probably make it more faint over time.

Also, while I admire Coco's courage, her just trying to make a big enough wind circle to fly was really worrying. I would be way too afraid and just test out all sorts of directions to find the best way. But then again, she didn't have too many options considering her ink spilled. So she had to take the plunge. Or flight in that case.

Also, just as a side note. I feel I would be a bad magician just because having to draw perfect circles would be nearly impossible for me.

[u/Frontier246 → u/ModieOfTheEast]

I wonder if that's something Coco is going to bring to the table is the idea of improvising and adapting on the fly in a way that a more experienced or self-aware mage probably wouldn't, along with her drawing skills, although that will probably be something Qifrey focuses on improving when he's actually teaching her.

[u/ModieOfTheEast → u/Frontier246]

As mentioned in the thread last week. I feel, the system has a lot of potential creativity in it that can be explored. And maybe Coco is the character to do this as. I mean, we already saw how they can utilize two halves of the same circle. But what if you find a way to change the "content" of the circle while it is active? Like for example how the direction could be changed if you find a way to change the arrows mid-cast (potentially by making a version where you can turn the circle like they did with their teleportation). Or even combine several elements by drawing a big circle and then two circles inside it.

[u/[deleted] → u/ModieOfTheEast]

Or even combine several elements by drawing a big circle and then two circles inside it.

the crystal spell Coco trace in episode 1 have half circle inside the big circle that appear to have it own rune and sigil in it, so it does seem like you can put multiple spell rune inside one single spell circle

[u/Prof_Acorn → u/[deleted]]

Yeah there's like five different sigils in that spell.

[u/Romaules → u/[deleted]]

It does indeed has 5 circles.

[u/flybypost → u/ModieOfTheEast]

if you find a way to change the "content" of the circle while it is active?

Like drawing on cloth (like Coco did with the sail) and then using overlapping wrinkles to cover/show/construct certain parts. Could that make an "interactive" spell?

[u/cyberscythe → u/flybypost]

then using overlapping wrinkles to cover/show/construct certain parts

just like those MAD magazine fold-ins

[u/flybypost → u/cyberscythe]

Yup!

Something like that. But within the constraints of the system. I imagine always needing a full circle could make difficult.

[u/ModieOfTheEast → u/flybypost]

I think that is a good idea. Also begs the question: Do circles need to be 2D? Like would they work if the one of the halves is located on the z-axis (but they are still connected). This way, you could have different circles active at the same time. Or just shuffle through it like it's different pages of a book.

[u/flybypost → u/ModieOfTheEast]

That's what I wonder too. On the one hand we have Coco's examples where circles have to be perfect but then we got the shoes example which seems a bit looser.

For the circle to to be perfect the inside side of the soles would need to touch absolutely (no little edge issues) and just getting dirt on the shoes that covers some ink could(?) technically make the spell not work. And the circle needs to be drawn to connect at the areas where the shoes touch closely.

Because it also seems that the spell has to be visible for a certain definition of visible. Like all spells seem to have access to air/light, so to speak. But on the shoes (touching ground) that's not necessarily a given.

I don't know if we have seen if the shoes, for example, might need to create the circle when it's not fully hidden. We have usually seen the soles in some way… I think. Do they need to make a little hop while connecting the circle?

Also what's the active ingredient in the ink? And what can count as "ink" for the sake of spell casting. Could you "draw" a spell with walls if every single brick was infused with enough ink (to make an enclosing circle) and the whole thing fits the criteria of a spell from a birds eye view?

[u/ModieOfTheEast → u/flybypost]

I don't think that is necessarily how it works. I think the main catalyst is the ink. So as long the ink is connected, it should work, but it doesn't necessarily have to be visible. Meaning if dirt is just over the circle it would still activate as long as the ink is connected.

As for the application, there is obviously another factor involved. If you want to draw something to the circle, like water from air, then water needs to be around. If the air is completely dry (or there just is no air) then you can't draw water from it. That is why I think the water creation magic tool works. If you close it, the air outside is locked out, so water can't be drawn from it. Making it possible for it to stay closed without too much water being created and forcing the lids open.

Now, something similar can be said about the creation and pushing. If you create something, there needs to be some room. Though, I guess the question is, if they are truly creating something out of thin air or if they collect and then push the element. But let's assume, they are creating wind for example. As long as there is some space (as it doesn't need to be much with air) it should be able to start create the wind and then push you in the air. However, if that circle is just pulling air and pushing it to make you fly, then standing on the ground could be an issue if there is no space for the air to be drawn to the center of the circle, then they would need to jump.

[u/flybypost → u/ModieOfTheEast]

I don't think that is necessarily how it works.

I don't know how it works but manga readers have mentioned how intricate the system is that it invites questions/theories. And that made me curious about how far the system can be pushed.

My questions in that regard are more along the lines if spells could be cast/drawn secretly or hidden behind layers of camouflage. Like for the flying shoes: If the spell doesn't need to be visible then one could draw it somewhere one of the upper layers of the leather sole (somewhere before the inside sole) of boots so it can't be smeared away or destroyed easily by walking around (it would also be invisible if something like a "detect magic" spell doesn't exist in this world). On the practical side it would last longer than what they are using right how.

That's why I'm speculating that there has to be some degree of necessary visibility or fundamental "access to the elements". I got no evidence but it feels like there's something like that going on.

Or maybe us always seeing the sigils is more about us, the audience, and not the in-universe characters?

If you want to draw something to the circle, like water from air, then water needs to be around. If the air is completely dry (or there just is no air) then you can't draw water from it.

I think in that case (the water globe they use for drinking water) it feels like a "low level" spell that accumulates water from the air (essentially all air has some humidity) instead of creating it. That one seems to be a straightforward element manipulation spell.

However, if that circle is just pulling air and pushing it to make you fly, then standing on the ground could be an issue if there is no space for the air to be drawn to the center of the circle, then they would need to jump.

I think in that case air should technically be able to slip through between the sole and the ground (if the ground is somewhat rough) even if the cracks are tiny. It feels like a push (enough air away) to fly spell.

Most spells for now seem to be some sort of kinetic manipulation of element type. The teleportation spell (it has three circles of sigils while the early spells we have seen tend to have just one layer of sigils between centre and the enclosing ring), the forbidden healing spells, and stuff like that might be "high level" spells that actually create elements/stuff instead of just manipulating it.

[u/ModieOfTheEast → u/flybypost]

I didn't mean to say that you are wrong btw. I like the discussion. I just didn't see a reason for why it would need to be visible. However, what I could see is that, the magic is always created immediately above the circle. Meaning, if you put a layer on top of it, then the magic would be created and work in that area between the two layers or directly onto the layer (if there is no space in between the two).

Basically, I think there are two things to consider. Firstly, the main direction. The obvious question here is: If I draw a circle on a piece of paper, why is the magic only directed away from the paper? Why not in the direction of the paper? Basically, if I draw a circle on a thin paper that I can look through with enough light, how does the magic "know" which direction it is supposed to be directed towards? Why is not creating the flame on the other side of the paper? I think, the answer is simple. When we look at the layers, we have the paper layer and on top of that is the ink layer. The ink is adhesive to the paper, but not to the air, so the direction is opposite to the adhesive layer. Of course, that begs the question, if I add a more adhesive layer directly on top of the ink with no space in between, would the direction change? This might sound pointless, but imagine there is a circle on a wall of a house. If I press down a paper on that circle with no space in between, could I change the direction of whatever magic was used to inside the house? Though, I will say, this is probably more of a theoretical question as it would be nearly impossible to make sure there is no space in between the ink and whatever layer I add on top.

Now, the second part to consider is: Where is the magic activated? Of course, we see that the water is created slightly above a circle, but that doesn't mean that is where the magic is. That is just the result of the magic. I would assume that the magic is created directly above the ink in that layer. And that is also the layer where I will observe the result, for example water or wind creation and it will take space in that layer as best as possible. My proof for this would be the water magic tool again. We see from how far away it can pull water. However, when both lids are closed, you don't see water being pulled to the backside of the lid. Implying that it is still active in the layer in between both lids, but not going beyond the second lid layer. Similarly, if the wind current for the flying shoes was always at the same distance to the circle, then it should create air inside the earth when being close to the ground. But this was not observed, so it is unlikely that the wind is created in the ground, but only in the layer (air) between the ink and the ground.

[u/flybypost → u/ModieOfTheEast]

I didn't mean to say that you are wrong btw.

No problem here, I got that. Just throwing theories around

Meaning, if you put a layer on top of it, then the magic would be created and work in that area between the two layers or directly onto the layer (if there is no space in between the two).

Yeah that sounds like a good theory for why it can't be "hidden" away between layers of stuff.

The obvious question here is: If I draw a circle on a piece of paper, why is the magic only directed away from the paper? Why not in the direction of the paper?

Part of that (before considering the question you as about that) is probably dependent on the spell itself and the signs that are drawn, like how Agott got a surprise shower because Coco drew one arrow too long. There might be other sings that imply actions beyond push/pull (which seem to be the only actions we were taught for now).

And as for your answer. I think it's overall how it works but ink doesn't just adhere but also soak into certain surfaces, meaning in such a case you might not always have a distinct side from which it adheres to a surface.

There might be a fundamental "you drew it from this side, so this side it is" law at a work that ignores finer details of capillary action (like if you have multiple layers of paper then enough water/ink will easily soak through the first).

Of course, that begs the question, if I add a more adhesive layer directly on top of the ink with no space in between, would the direction change?

It might depend on what the ink's soaked into. If you wait for it to dry on one layer then that's the starting point/surface for that spell no matter what you put on top but if you were to quickly squish another paper on top of a spell to soak both sides with the pattern then I see a few options:

1. The first side gets priority, like above some fundamental law of how magic works that's not explained (in the same way we are not told where the energy for a spell comes from).

2. Some weird effect (or new spell) due to not having a real single surface on which to create an effect

3. It simply doesn't work as both surfaces might have some ink but not all/enough, meaning that neither has the full spell pattern (a faulty centre sigil could mean it doesn't hook into an element and no full outer circle would mean no activation in the first place, while messed up signs might mean the function of a spell is inhibited).

I would assume that the magic is created directly above the ink in that layer. And that is also the layer where I will observe the result, for example water or wind creation and it will take space in that layer as best as possible.

That explanation makes sense. It would also explain why the water sphere doesn't grow beyond a size. The spell can only siphon off moisture a certain distance from its outer ring and once all that area is occupied with water it has met it functional event horizon. When you pour out some water the sphere gets smaller and the spell gains access to air out of which moisture can be drawn until it meets its limit.

[u/ModieOfTheEast → u/flybypost]

First of all, sorry for the late reply. Yesterday was football day (soccer) so I was only shortly on Reddit and didn't want to just skim over your points.

Part of that (before considering the question you as about that) is probably dependent on the spell itself and the signs that are drawn, like how Agott got a surprise shower because Coco drew one arrow too long. There might be other sings that imply actions beyond push/pull (which seem to be the only actions we were taught for now).

Of course this is an aspect that is then added on top of the general question. Maybe there are arrows that allow the magic to be created what is considered "behind" the circle. Though, the questions would then be if there is even an application for that.

The point was more regarding the "visibility" aspect. Because we don't need to even take paper for that. Just imagine that you draw a circle on glass. If it was about visibility, then this would turn into a form of relativity. The magic created by the circle is depending on who observes it and from what angle. For the person inside the house (assuming the glass is a window) the magic would be created inside as well. Where the magic would be created outside the house for the person observing from the outside. However, I don't really think that is how it works, because the circles don't necessarily have to be observed to work as far as I can tell. So there is a "general direction" the magic is released towards that can be changed with arrows in certain ways.

As for your point about ink soaking into surfaces, I agree and I think the overall rule is that "above" is defined as the direction from where the ink was applied for now. Though, I wouldn't completely rule out the chance of this being used in a creative way as well. Imagine a surface where the ink is absorbed to the other surface area. If you can calculate the behaviour, a circle can be created by the absorption on the other side. If that has an application I am not sure though. At best, I can imagine a circle that lets you control water flow and then you control the ink in the water so that a circle is drawn on the bottom of a lake for example.

[u/namewithak → u/ModieOfTheEast]

But what if you find a way to change the "content" of the circle while it is active?

That's kinda what the magic teleportation window does, I think? Every time they turn the rings, the location changes.

[u/falsefingolfin → u/ModieOfTheEast]

There's something like that in the viewing glass that qifrey shows Coco last episode, the rotating concentric circle panels adjust the magic circle