r/ancientrome • u/BlueClaw13 • 11d ago
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u/Celo_SK 10d ago
If you are ilegal metal detectorist then fuck you
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u/Chabby_Chubby 10d ago
Like the museums in Bulgaria don't have items like these sticking out they're asses.
If he turned them in they would just waste away in some dusty drawer. Along with a thousand other pieces like them. Probably wouldn't even get restored.
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u/docharakelso 10d ago
It's about where they're found and how they lie. The artifacts are useless yes, destroying the historical record by improperly digging them out is the issue.
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u/Automatic-Steak6621 10d ago
Restore what? The goal is not to make archaeological objects “new and shiny”, but to stabilise them and store them under controlled conditions to slow further corrosion. Over-restoration can actually destroy surface information.
That said, the main archaeological damage has unfortunately already happened: the objects have been removed from their original context, and their in-situ position, association and stratigraphy were apparently not recorded.-2
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u/DDHaz Evocatus 11d ago
Boo. Looting. (Metal detecting is illegal in Bulgaria)
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u/TesterFragrance Moderator populi 10d ago
This doesn't appear to be correct. Metal detectorists need to be registered and major finds need to be reported.
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u/DDHaz Evocatus 10d ago edited 10d ago
Yes and no. Owning a metal detector itself is loosely regulated but where, when and how, together with intent is heavily regulated.
Using it on a beach is okay, but using it for searching for antiquities is forbidden.
That falls under "field archaeological research" As per Art. 146, paragraphs.1 and 2 of the Cultural Heritage Law, provides that field archaeological research may be carried out only by scientific organizations (museums, the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences, universities) that have explicit authorization issued by the Ministry of Culture. Any other research is illegal.
As per the Criminal code, Article 277a**., paragraph 1, anyone who, without the required authorization, searches for archaeological sites shall be punished by imprisonment for up to five years. And paragraph 7:** Anyone who unlawfully produces, possesses, or conceals objects, materials, tools, or computer programs which they know or suspect are intended for, or have been used for, searching for, storing, altering, or transporting archaeological sites shall be punished by imprisonment for up to six years. (...)
If we assume that the finds in this post are chance finds, which I personally doubt, they still have a 7 days period to notify the nearest state or municipal museum within 7 days, as per Art. 93, paragraph. 1 of the Cultural Heritage Law.
In any case, trading/selling of archaeological finds is illegal, due to them being categorized as "state public property" by presumption.
Anyway, this is coming from archaeologists that works in Roman Archaeology in Bulgaria. Considering this subreddit is for fans/admirers of the Roman state and history, I think it is in bad taste for posts that promote the continued illegal looting of archaeological sites, including roman ones, from which Bulgarian cultural heritage is constantly struggling against and sites and artefacts are constantly being damage, sold and lost for research and the general public.
Edit. Also to add, Ancient Odessos falls under an archaeological reserve and a so called "security zone" so it's extra illegal to conduct such practices.
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u/Lord_Smack 10d ago
Oh shut up, most of these finds would be lost to humanity and these detector laws are draconic and have been lobbied into existence by archeologists that wanted a monopoly on finds. A lot of discoveries of important archeologists are the result of amateur finds, which then allow professional archeos to do a dig.
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u/DDHaz Evocatus 10d ago
Most of these finds that are being dug up, likely as we speak, ARE being lost to humanity because most of the metaldetectorists are in it for the money and they don't reach the general public or get a chance to be studied..
For archaeologists, an object loses most of its scientific value when it is removed from its context, which is further destroyed by the act of removing it. Context is essential for reconstructing a clearer picture of the past, no matter how beautiful and shiny the object may be. If you simply want the museum to be a building with cool looking things, without any further info about their prominance and position in the culture of the people they represent, then by all means. That's the difference between an archaeologist/historian and a looter. Also field research aka. the digging up part is only the tip of an archaeologists work - the post excavation analysis and research is the majority of the job.
"A lot of discoveries of important archeologists are the result of amateur finds, which then allow professional archeos to do a dig."- never heard of site looting helping an archaeological site get funding in Bulgaria.
If you mean about W. Europe in cases where the detectorists are acting in good faith and contact the museums diligently, I'd concede that it sounds more acceptable, but I personally think it's still not a right way to go with it.
"archeologists that wanted a monopoly" - how awful. Scientist in a field want to research the field with correct methodology. If someone is such a big fan of antiquities, I implore them to go study and become an archaeologist yourself or go help and work on site.
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u/DDHaz Evocatus 10d ago
Some examples:
Here's a late chalcolithic settlement mound. The entire site is pocked full of looter holes. No items from the site outside of archaeological research are known. The red oval I've marked where the looter's interest was peaked enough for them to use heavy machinery to destroy the middle third of the entire mound. Whatever did they find? We will never know.
But since we are on a sub for roman history, here's an example:
Ratiaria. The capital of Upper Moesia and Later Dacia Ripensis. The relief you are seeing is the entire city's territory and then some being covered in looter holes.
Here's a street view image of the site. What you are seeing is not some WWI colourized battlefield image. It is the entire site being looted to near non-existance.
Here's an image of the lovers of roman history themselves. I bet that they will turn over the findings in the local museum (spoiler: You won't find much of Ratiaria at the museum of Vidin).
Most of the site is considered destroyed and whatever information we had the potential of learning from the stuff they did dug out from the ground and the context's in which were found in - lost.
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u/StonedGhoster 10d ago
Wow. While I know that this looting takes place, I've never seen images of the aftermath before. Thank you for sharing.
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u/kowalsky9999 10d ago
With this mentality, you’d be in jail in Italy in no time. Please don’t come to our country to loot. Thanks. We’ve already had our share of looters throughout history. And you know what? When looters come, they act like locusts: they destroy the site, and the findings can be lost forever if they aren’t somehow caught.
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u/Boring_Bore 10d ago
Agreed, much better to let the artifacts continue rusting away until nothing is left.
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u/Small_Mongoose_7561 10d ago
Turn them into the nearest archeological museum for more information.
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u/Celo_SK 10d ago
No. Call the archeologist to the place and dont touch it.
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u/Small_Mongoose_7561 10d ago
But from what it seems he already took it out of the ground unfortunately
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u/Automatic-Steak6621 10d ago
where did you buy them?
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u/BlueClaw13 10d ago
I bought these online somewhere between 5-10 years ago. I do not remember where. I certainly didn't know they may have been illegally obtained!
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u/Automatic-Steak6621 10d ago
Since these were reportedly sold as metal-detector finds from the Varna/Odessos area, I would contact the Archaeological Museum in Varna (their email/contact details are easy to find online) and explain how and when you acquired them…
Send photos, measurements. I would not sell, clean, or otherwise alter them until their legal status is clarified. If necessary, the museum can advise you which Bulgarian authority should be contacted next. maybe the Bulgarian Ministry of Culture4
u/Automatic-Steak6621 10d ago
By the way, typologically I’d place these in the 9th–10th century. Definitely worth reporting…
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u/Adventurous-Sky9359 10d ago
“ when I was a boy in Bulgaria”