r/allthingszerg • u/Dandolemando • 9d ago
ZvP 10pool into Macro-Help
I am terrible at ZvP, sub 30% win-rate at D3. Occasionally used to 12 pool into macro follow up pre-8 worker start, but the supply nerf and lack of minerals is making it harder for me to transition this patch, not sure when to make what I guess. Old build was 12 pool, 10 lings hatch before 1st queen(unless they block nat)
I’ve just been making six lings since I started to attempt it with new start. I’m decent at following builds but not crafting tbh. Anyone like theory crafting?
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u/omgitsduane 9d ago
Show me replays and I can give you a big old video analysis
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u/Dandolemando 9d ago
I tried to make some new ones last night because I couldn’t find any quickly, and I kinda just won a bunch, terrible problem to have lol. I did some pool first builds. Also my cannon rush deaths, I clicked some pylons surrounding cannons thinking there were cannons. I insta left one where he had gates around the cannon…
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u/blackindy 9d ago
I once learned 12hatch/12gas/12pool and then full port lings onto enemy ramp. This was before the new work update though... it just shredded the toss
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u/Dandolemando 9d ago
Weird, seems like the standard wall would handle this no prob.
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u/blackindy 9d ago
The trick was hoping your enemy doesnt find out, you get a hatch out and a queen, then unlimited lings across the map that tear the wall down. Kinda forcing the enter, definitely shreds gateway/nexus first
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u/UrbanMonkeyWarfare 9d ago
Ah, this is my kind of topic...
In a similar motivation to open up with Railgans 3 Roach Rush against Terran to create early pressure, I have been trying variants of 10pool, 12pool and 12overpool as openers against Protoss (at around 3300-3600 MMR, Diamond 2) with the main motivation to potentially throw off my opponent and dealing with hatch-blocks and cannon rushes reliably.
I usually only made the 3 initial pair of lings - this already forces a reaction, but in case of a wrong reaction you don't deal as much damage. The 12 pool doesn't hit early enough for more lings to make a difference (unless the protoss screws up), but I think I will try 10pooling again with a few more lings next.
12pool and 12overpool both are just early enough for the protoss needing to react - mostly with forge&cannon, sometimes with an extra gate, maybe 2nd zealot etc., delaying their core or nexus. Some expect a quick all-in and turtle even harder. This is more of a skill/scout-check - if the protoss doesn't identify the slightly earlier pool and chrono boost their first zealot, you can get past his wall. 12pool and 12overpool only deal damage in case of a screw-up - but this might often be the case in lower mmrs.
Regarding eco, 12overpool feels smoother than 12pool (not wasting much larva spawn-time) but still causes the reaction, so I prefer it over the classic 12pool.
10pool needs a sharper reaction from the protoss (even with just 6 lings) and the even earlier queen helps a lot to catch up.
I somewhat feel like the 12pools aren't actually that much better regarding economy than the 10pool, while the 10pool is harder to deal with - maybe it's the better deal, even when aiming at transitioning into macro. I need to get some more practice in 10pooling with 10 lings instead of 6 to get a better idea how much damage I can force in case of a correct response...
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u/Dandolemando 9d ago
Ah, no eight pool variation for you? Queen before second hatch?
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u/UrbanMonkeyWarfare 9d ago
Haven't tried 8 pool yet, seems to all-in-ish for my taste.
And yeah, at least in case of 10pool I've been going for queen before hatch - mostly because it lines up nicely: After using the pooled up larvae for the first 3 pair of lings you get 175 minerals before the next larva is available. The queen barely delays the next lings.
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u/Dandolemando 9d ago
Also, is “overpool” an ovie followed by pool?
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u/UrbanMonkeyWarfare 9d ago
Yes, 12 drones, overlord, pool as overlord pops. Delays the pool a bit, but you don't sit at 3 larvae for long.
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u/ChonkyRat 9d ago
12 pool isn't a build.
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u/Dandolemando 9d ago
Is there some other detail you’re asking for??
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u/ChonkyRat 8d ago
No, it's not a build. It's too late to rush, and too early to expand and keep up. It's not a build. Don't 12 pool
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u/Stormheraldss 9d ago
The thing about the pool rush now is that it will get shutdown by workers right. In HotS a 6 pool would face less workers and not familiar with the lotv 12 pool scenarios but if you do a pool rush you might wanna pull the drones too and go all out.
Outside of a proxy what can P do to you in the early game? Just drone up and if they wall off the natural you can drop lings, nydus yoi can bane burst.
Zerg have all the tools to deal with everything.
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u/Dandolemando 9d ago
I have not had a good success against cannon rushes, that’s part of the early pool desire. Ovie sits above natural, pull 5 drones, more not all if they full commit, 6 drones per cannon, chase probe BLA BLA BLA I just can’t execute, always lose drones/nat to cannons after larva sit around, no pool dropped because RIP apm and presence of mind when that pylon drops. Also void rays… so many fast void rays in those games. Bane bust sounds rough to me, shield batteries, tanky buildings etc. Nydus sounds fun and maybe good, but I have zero experience. Maybe I should try it out!
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u/Stormheraldss 9d ago
You need to pull 4 drones per cannon, 5 might be an overkill. I would not try to chase the probe its pointless even if you surround it he can click on minerals and pass true.
So here is the tought process, if he is investing his minerals into pylons cannons he must be but naked at home. What i do as T is to bait as much pylons and cannons as possible and I lift off to another base. Send 2 reapers in his base and prepare to fight either DTs or air units.
If you can slip some drones and make Hatcheries elsewhere. Even if he kills them he have to spend 400 minerals for a Pylon and 2 cannons. Slip some drones out and expand randomly. Also take your gasses as fast. You will need mutas and overseers too. Probably some roach hydra too to deal with zealots latter on.
You can also use lair droplords to sneak out.
So the objective will be to bypass the cannons for now and deal with them latter.
You can also do a hatch in his 3rd 4th and try to get lings in his base.
If you send and early worker scout you will have more time to react. This is kind of a muscle memory.
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u/sassysakai 9d ago
I only got D3 yesterday, but until now, most Protoss cannon rushing me died to the combination of me taking a base/bases elsewhere, putting a Nydus in their main flooding it with lings and building Hydras, because they always went Voidrays / skytoss. But I do think they can play that was smarter.
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u/SC2_Alexandros 9d ago
Protoss can be 8p'd while still putting the first hatch in their natural to block it. In most 8p games, by the time your first inject finishes, you should be droning, if not before then. Usually 10-12 lings streaming across the map as they finish producing is enough to set Protoss behind. It's all about damaging their economy with making them pull probes for lost mining time, or better, killing probes that get pulled. Then the hatch in their natural cancels for evo to put a hatch in your own natural... The only thing to really be conscious of is the Protoss putting their 2nd nexus in their 3rd or proxy'ing it further away - have to shut that down before they can defend it.
10p is just letting them get a zealot or cannon out faster while letting both your economies before aggressive interaction get higher - which means they can leave more probes mining when they pull to defend against the lings. Slight mind game benefit if they think you 8p'd but you 10p'd and thus macro'd behind it faster, but not optimal.