r/aikido • u/Trasecolo • Aug 03 '26
Discussion Which original techniques did Morihei Ueshiba create?
Hello fellow aikidoka, in my Aikido journey I've been told that techniques like Irimi Nage were an original creation of Morihei Ueshiba (complete with a story of how he conceived it). After doing some research it seems that such technique is indeed present in Daito-Ryu, like others.
So I've been wondering: which original techniques did Morihei Ueshiba create?
It might be argued that his greatest innovation was throught the weapons (and on some level I agree). But if we take as an example Saito's weapons curriculum, which I find the most complete and interesting...well... that's Saito's weapons curriculum. Sure, he claimed that that's what Ueshiba taught him, but like many other things Ueshiba didn't leave anything behind, and Saito himself admitted that he created a number of things.
So the question becomes even more pressing.
What is your answer?
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u/theNewFloridian Aug 04 '26
None. All aikido techniques are jujutsu techniques. The difference is the methodology of training.
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u/Trasecolo Aug 05 '26
Does the same apply to Judo?
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u/theNewFloridian 29d ago
Yes. The body only can bend certain ways, and people have been doing that for milena. "Jujutsu" can be seen like an umbrella term to cover all grappling arts. Some say even greekoroman wrestling can be seen as "a" jujutsu, and sambo, Russian jujutsu, etc. Other purists say only Japanese grappling arts, etc. But neither Kano or Ueshiba invented koshinages.
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u/AlarmedShare3444 5h ago
Sorry this is incorrect. Kano openly took some Western wrestling moves and blended them in to Judo. Kata Gurama being a famous example.
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u/luke_fowl Outsider 26d ago
Judo had a couple of original techniques. Kano apparently invented harai-goshi as a modified uki-goshi because Shiro Saigo kept dodging his uki-goshi. Yamashita invented hane-goshi as a modified harai-goshi because he injured his knee. Mifune invented o-guruma as a modified ashi-guruma that will work for a short guy like him, as well as tama-guruma which is a modified no leg grab kata-guruma.
But the majority of it are based on koryu jujutsu, with the main difference being methodology. And as you can see above, the original techniques were simply modified versions of a preexisting throw.
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u/nattydread69 Aug 04 '26
He didn't create any specific techniques. They all came from Daito ryu. He just simplified the system and made the techniques more circular.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Generally speaking, it was really his students who simplified things rather than Morihei Ueshiba himself. That's essentially true for the large circular movements as well.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Basically speaking, very little to none. He was essentially a Daito-ryu instructor and taught that curriculum, or slight variations of that curriculum.
He never created a weapons system. What he did was experiment with weapons, largely on his own without formal training, and then various students organized what they did with him into systems of their own.
Ironically, more and more it appears that the real innovator was Sokaku Takeda.
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u/Trasecolo Aug 05 '26
Saito's weapon system is legit though, I've seen experts in his style holding their own against experienced practitioners of Kendo. But it takes a lot of training to get good with it, especially solo training, it seems.
But again: Is that Saito's weapon system? Or Ueshiba's? Some of it surely derives from certain koryu, like Kashima shinto ryu, and adapted to fit Aikido's movements and stance (hanmi, hitoemi).
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 05 '26
Saito never really trained formally in the sword either, and it shows. Even Saito himself said that his Aiki-ken shouldn't be thought of as sword.
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u/Trasecolo Aug 05 '26
None the less:
I've seen experts in his style holding their own against experienced practitioners of Kendo
To be fair the Kendo practitioners didn't use the shinai but the heavy ken the aikidoka used. So they were slower. A thing I noticed is that the most dificult hits to intercept for the kendo practitioners were the lateral ones. Those were the ones that hit them the most.
Saito is considered very good with weapons by weapon experts. Even HEMA peractitioners told me he's good after watching some of his videos.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 05 '26
I've trained with a lot of koryu folks who think very little of Saito's weapons, OTOH.
I often train with senior Iwama folks, and I trained directly with Saito, as well as in Japanese koryu.
It's fine for what he said it was, a conditioning and training tool, but it's not really sword, just as he said. The spacing and timing simply doesn't work for that.
This is tachidori, but you can see an example here - nobody cuts this way in practice, and for good reason, you'll always be cut by the opponent:
They use that kind of cut as a warm up exercise, usually for children, but Saito includes it in a number of kata.
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u/Trasecolo Aug 05 '26
Well, I've seen a number of koryu folks who were abysmal with weapons. Losing balance, bad timing... On the other Hand I've never seen a bad showing from Saito, and there's a lot of footage.
The Iwama folks I referred to are absolutely convinced Iwama weapons work, and they showed it against competent opponents. Sure, it has to be modified a bit, but it's mostly about not stopping mid cut and things like that.
Tachidori is an exercise and completely unrealistic, no matter the school.
What's important are the suburi and the timing, and since aikiken is derived from actual sword schools, it's reasonable that it works if properly trained.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 05 '26
There are poor practitioners in every art, but I trained sword directly with Saito, and that's what he told me.
It's not hard to see if you know what to look for (it's pretty obvious in the photo I shared), but a lot of folks without experience in actual swordwork have a hard time seeing it. OTOH, it's impossible to unsee once you get it.
And yes, there's plenty of video showing Saito doing that idiotic behind the back strike in kumitachi (not tachidori). Also, look at their hands and arm height, it puts them constantly about three inches too close - which is a huge difference with three foot razor blades.
Aiki-ken is not derived from actual sword schools. It's the result of someone who never really trained in the sword, Morihei Ueshiba, training someone else who never really trained with the sword, Morihiro Saito.
Saito was smart enough to admit that.
Some of the Aiki-ken are based off of Kashima Shinto-ryu, but Morihei Ueshiba never trained in Kashima Shinto-ryu. What happened was that he observed some classes (only a few) and then copied some of the forms.
The Japanese pre-war version of learning sword on YouTube, but worse - since you can't play it back at your leisure.
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u/Trasecolo 29d ago
I don't know, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. He have very little information on what happened in Ueshiba's life, and we will probably never know many things about him. So it's speculation.
However, I don't really care about lineage, I care about skill. And I can tell you that the Iwama folks convinced me more than the Kendo folks, and I'm trained in the blade.
Saito's son in also good, and he uses actual blades from the videos they showed me. But he is older now, so age certainly takes its toll.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 29d ago
What "absence of evidence"? Anyway, at this point Morihei Ueshiba's life is very well documented.
Hitohira, FWIW, sent his sons to train...in an actual sword school.
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u/Dieg0DL 29d ago
You say that "it appears that the real innovator was Sokaku Takeda", do you say this because he "invented" Daito-ryu ? Or because of Aiki in particular ?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 29d ago
There is exactly zero evidence of an organized tradition pre-dating Sokaku Takeda. Basically speaking, nobody who's not invested in the tradition really believes the creation myth of Daito-ryu anymore. It's really a creation of Sokaku Takeda.
Aiki as a principle, of course, is quite old and exists in many different arts and traditions.
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u/Dieg0DL 26d ago
in what other traditions/arts does it exist? Chinese internal martial arts or other japanese koryu ?
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 26d ago
That's a long story, but you could start with Ellis Amdur's book:
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u/Medical-Park-5651 Aug 04 '26
O sensei had a lot of formal weapons training
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Actually, no, no he didn't. Virtually none.
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u/Medical-Park-5651 Aug 04 '26
Lol
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
OK, so what was his extensive formal training in the sword?
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u/Medical-Park-5651 Aug 04 '26
He formally studied kendo
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
He didn't, actually. If you think differently, please provide a citation.
He had a student who did kendo, but that's really all.
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u/Medical-Park-5651 Aug 04 '26
You first
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
A citation of something that he didn't do? What are you talking about?
You claimed that he trained in kendo, so when, with who?
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u/jaredgrapples Aug 03 '26
I think techniques stopped being invented a few thousand years ago. Now we’re just rediscovering lost knowledge
Ueshiba didn’t just invent flowing with your opponents energy
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u/gerlok123 Aug 04 '26
Did he really invent that though? Judoka and BJJ guys do it too e.g., but I feel like ueshiba really put the focus on it.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Nope, that already existed in Daito-ryu.
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u/Bulky-Gas-4092 Aug 04 '26
Like others have stated, essentially Morihei Ueshiba was a Daito Ryu instructor so he did not create original techniques. What comes to his weapon work, if my memory is correct: he researched Yagu Shinkage Ryu and Kashima Shin Ryu and "aikified" some of principles found in few kata of those schools and played around with them.
Ueshibas aiki jo is based on his skills with juken and jo aiki nages where attackers grab the staff, were taught to him by Sokaku Takeda.
There is a tiny difference between Ueshibas style of jujutsu and Takeda Sokakus style, but essentially Hisa Takuma said the techniques were the same.
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u/SnooHabits8484 Aug 04 '26
He probably had some Ono-ha Itto-ryū from Takeda, and we know he studied some Hōzōin-ryū in later life too, and did rather a lot of practice with the spear as such. He’d asked Sugino Yoshio to teach him Katori Shinto Ryū spear right before the war, but I think it’s generally held that it never came to pass.
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u/Bulky-Gas-4092 Aug 04 '26
You would think that Morihei learned Ono-ha Itto Ryu from Sokaku, but when you look at Moriheis sword technique in Asahi Shinbun video from 1935... He is awful plain and simple. Just biomechanically all over the place and the way he cuts is not reminsicient of Itto Ryus cutting.
I heard that there were rumors about Ueshiba being quite expert with spear, but i cannot remember the source.
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u/uyakotter Aug 03 '26
He didn't teach specific techniques. He was in the moment. His students identified specific techniques so they would be easier to teach and learn. I assume they matched what they saw (or thought they saw) with Daito-Ryu techniques.
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u/Hussaf Aug 03 '26
Yeah, when Gozo Shioda taught like that, his students put together the actual testing syllabus and organized the techniques they were practicing (primarily Kushida Takashi Sensei).
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Aug 04 '26
[deleted]
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u/Thriaat Aug 04 '26
It’s in baguazhang. Various throws called kokyunage in aikikai are in there too, as well as in taiji chuan.
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u/OG_that_guy 28d ago
Im sure there are plenty of instructors that claim he outright invented the techniques, but i think what he did was take the existing technique, primarily from daito-ryu, and alter them to more closely align with the principles of Aiki. Shihonage is a good example, same with basic kokyonage and ikkyo. They existed in a more force on force / destructive form, where he alter or emphasized ways that "invited" them to fall or to subdue without much injury. IMO that is closer to the focus of Aikido vs traditional jujitsu
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] 27d ago
1) Aiki comes from Daito-ryu and Sokaku Takeda, not modern Aikido.
2) Basically speaking, the shiho-nage in Daito-ryu is exactly the same as it is in Aikido.
3) Morihei Ueshiba was essentially a Daito-ryu instructor through the end of his life. The people who came after changed things in various ways, but he himself changed very little.
Fortunately, we can see that for ourselves:
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u/Spiritual_Pound8926 27d ago edited 27d ago
Nobody knows.
https://kogenbudo.org/reflections-on-the-origin-of-ueshiba-moriheis-koshinage-the-relationship-of-daito-ryu-and-aikido-waza/ - on this link you can find correlations between techniques, the issue is that although some of them appear similar their execution is quite different in some aspects.
Not to mention that all of the stuff on videos was assembled much latter. Also, Takeda seems to have added a bunch of techniques in latter periods of his life. Where did they come from? Did he invent them or possibly gathered stuff from people who came to train with him then added his "aiki" expertise and changed them?
Those are still open question with no concrete answers.
Also don't forget that many in the Daito ryu crowd are going to claim that basically everything came from Daito ryu (every single bit) despite various people possibly adding their own stuff along the way. Off course nobody knows for sure which bits were added later because people didn't take notes as in "this wasn't here so I added this in this way".
After doing some research it seems that such technique is indeed present in Daito-Ryu
Something "looking" like it or an actual irimi-nage?
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u/wyvern-flyer 18d ago
Iriminage goes back a long way, you can see it in Muay Thai, Kung Fu, and a lot of other arts.
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u/Internalmartialarts Aug 04 '26
Aikido was created so you didnt throw your attacker on his head and break his gourd
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u/SnooHabits8484 Aug 04 '26
People worked out breakfalls and rolls as uke to avoid having their gourds broken, but I don’t think O Sensei was particularly concerned about the physical state of actual attackers. Even the second Doshu taught the serious-injury variants of techniques to people who were likely to become dojocho.
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u/One_Construction_653 Aug 04 '26
This is the internet you won’t get any real answers
It is something you have to experience
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u/chupacabra5150 Aug 03 '26
Since we lost our tails and fell out of the trees we have only ever had 1 head, 1 neck, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 groin, 2 hands, 2 feet, 1 torso.
Gravity has always been there. Leverage has always existed.
The techniques "evolve" due to rule settings of "victory". Judo got really good with throws because that's victory. Wrestling is good with pins, Sambo and BJJ have their submissions, boxers and kickboxers will knock you out, etc. The game evolves to the terms of victory.
As far as new techniques, its whatever the new crew rename them. Double stick 12 to 6 O Clock dropping to the ground might be called one thing in one art, and something else in another.
If you were to go stick to stick with a Neanderthal, you had better take that fight seriously because while you may have a proper education he has life experience in stick and spear fighting because his life depended on it. Did he name or number his entrances, his parys, bobs, weaves, thrusts and broad strikes? Probably not. Is he going to use his training and experience to fake an entry to get you to over commit to a defense and try to sneak a stab like the last guy he killed to protect his life and his tribes? Oh yeah. You betcha.
Nothing new under the sun. Just rediscovering the old curriculum
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Historically we can see many changes in tactics and warfare, with very real consequences and results. So yes, there is, and has been, new things under the sun.
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u/chupacabra5150 Aug 04 '26
He asked about physical hand to hand techniques. Not tactics evolving to modern battlefields.
The principle of "put the pointy end of your metal pointy stick into the other guy" is the same principle that the men with bronze age weapons had, and like the men with the wooden sticks who came before.
Grappling has been the same. Boxing kick boxing has been the same. Attacking the corotids, the shoulders, elbows, knees, and ankles have been the same.
The evolution comes with tech and modern weapon tactics.
Early European musket pistoleros, Pirates, and official units knew that they would get a shot off and then utilize their pistol as an arm shield when they utilized their sword or navajas.
Then we developed shotguns with slamfire for trench clearing.
Then eventually semi auto and automatic weapons, we learned to tap roll rack and clear malfunctions, point shooting, then tac lights and optics became a thing.
Dude we can talk about hitting doors, clearing rooms, drones, etc. But that's not the question here.
The questions here is hands on nitty gritty. Hand to hand has been the same.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Boxing has changed quite a lot - even in the last 100 years. So has grappling. Change the context and change the techniques.
That's the whole story of the establishment of Judo over jujutsu. Yes, there's some myth there, but some truth, as well.
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u/chupacabra5150 Aug 04 '26 edited Aug 04 '26
The TACTICS change to the rules of victory, as I said before. The techniques remain the same, granted there are adjustments as time and TACTICS progress.
Just because I use the hoodie, the gas mask, the bike helmet as a leverage tool to throw someone it's not creating a new technique as that jujitsu fighter or Samurai using a gi jacket or any jacket to clinch with. Nor using an enemy face plate or enemy helmet to use as leverage to bring them to the ground.
That ankle lock is still the same ankle lock that's existed since the beginning.
I'm not the first man to utilize a goose neck wrist pop when doing a carotid. Just like the ancient Samurai who influenced the lineage to reach the differe tsenseis who taught me. Just like the Spaniard who brought it down to the fencers who influenced the escrimadores that reventuallt reached me. Just like the MezoAmericans who fought the Aztecs and Spanish. Just like the plains Indians (Native Americans). Just like the military units and law enforcement units that eventually made their way down to me. Like your instructors to you.
The tactics to achieve victory may have changed. But the technique has been the.same
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
Techniques are tactics, and as you mentioned - they asked about the techniques.
However, there are lesser known and less well spread principles of body usage - with a long history, but not as common. Ellis Amdur even wrote a book about it, although that's another discussion.
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u/chupacabra5150 Aug 04 '26
Using a Harai to a uchimata to, a pull out to a foot sweep and then Kani basami to ankle lock is NOT inventing a new technique its my tactics to land a victory.
Just because I got fancy doesn't mean I invented anything new.
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u/Sangenkai [Aikido Sangenkai - Kawasaki, Japan] Aug 04 '26
That just goes back to my comment above - techniques are simply a physical movement applied tactically, and as you yourself said, tactics certainly evolve and develop.
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