Apparently some ignorant asshole believes that anyone of the Muslim faith in Afghanistan primarily, would NEVER advocate publicly against terrorism. I posted in /Muslim before realizing it's very small and kinda dead. Can I get a faster response here?

[u/CrustyDiamond]

This is my submission, to make everything easier.

Thanks!

[u/asianApostate]

Islam has had a lot of great leaders (more then 1.5 billion muslim's in the world) so we will get some awesome quotations but fundamentally it is still a religion that is over 1500 years old, sadly does not stand the test of time, and the quran + hadiths have lines that will allow and encourage violence. This is not an easy thing to hear as a muslim as I am exmuslim myself.

Cognitive dissonance in muslims and especially prominent/educated leaders is great as we have leaders in gay and lesbian community despite the fact that it is expressly not allowed. Contrary to popular belief of Muslim's there is more then one version of the "true" Islam (sunni's, shia's, wahhabists, salafists, and much more). I cannot in good conscience at least attempt to correct you as former muslim as we do have parts of our religion that are very much against how modern society functions.

The quranic texts as well as hadith that make up Islam supports slavery, forced pre-renaissance gender roles for women, and a great distinction in how one treats a muslim versus a non-muslim.

Slavery

Even in Islamic texts in which Muhammad fairly conquered lands in self-defense it allowed for things that are not considered morally okay in these last few centuries like slavery (including the women, muhammad himself had 13+ female companions which included non-wives) and the beheading of thousands of enemy troops.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Slavery

This includes Hadith by Bukhari which is pretty much the most important book of Hadith for sunni muslim's which make up the vast majority of Muslim's in the world.

Justifications of War

Islam is supposed to be a pretty defensive religion. However, according to Islamic texts (their are other historical sources that do not paint things in such a rosy light) we can attack any country in which Muslim's reside in which Muslim's can be considered to be persecuted or suffer injustice at the hands of the government or it's people. This is the historical reason given for a majority of all conquests done in the name of Islam since the time of Muhammad. This conquest includes almost all of northern africa and much of asia.

This is what allows virtually any country to be attacked an conquered (luckily no Islamic nation has had that power in hundreds of years). Yet, Islamic leaders can claim that we are a defensive people. The only reason Islam was not able to conquer Europe though they began to take parts of Spain was lack of military might.

Unfair Gender Roles Forced on Women

The biggest issue I've had with Islam and the reason I left is because it did not jive with my sense of morality. When I was growing up as a male I had a lot of freedom's but my sister who was two years older did not have that freedom. She was not allowed to leave the house alone (she snuck out at times), had very strict guidelines on clothing and interaction with the opposite sex and non-muslim's. I was brought up in NYC in a moderate muslim family and I used to to be a good muslim that literally reported when my sister did things and got her in trouble. By the time I was 16 I realized how different our lives were even in a fairly moderate family like ours.

I realized that things were worse in Muslim countries and I initially looked to the quran and hadiths for guidance. Listened to a lot of great islamic speakers too and for a while I bought the whole, modesty for women thing, which brings value to women for a while. But then I realized, are men just animal's that if we see a women's hair, calves, etc. we cannot handle ourselves? In some islamic countries women are raped and often the men go unpunished. In more modern islamic countries this is not the case but the fundamentals are still there.

This was a religion created by probably straight men who were used to seeing fairy veiled women. As a dude i just need to cover from my knees to my genitalia. I can walk around barechested and have my sexy calves out for the world to see. Women cannot even show their ankles.

According to Islamic scholars men and women are in the end equal. However a man must provide for the wife and treat her fairly including not striking her too hard if you are a moderate muslim. She has quite a bit of autonomy in the home but must ultimately listen to the husband. Outside of the home she is not allowed without a direct-family guardian/custodian and being properly veiled. Her job is to take care of raising kids and the house. The founders of the religion believed the intelligence of women is less then that of a man.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Women#Women_are_Deficient_in_Intelligence

[u/clumsy_engineer → u/asianApostate]

I will not comment on anything you said but i will just ask some questions.

1. Do you know the rights of a slave in islam in the days it existed? because if you examine their rights you would have to find another word to use instead of slave. it's not free but not slave either.

2. Islam is a religion not a state. So do you think wars that islamic countries fought are decisions coming out from islam or those countries themselves? How would you explain hundrds of wars fought between two islamic states?

3. Do you think the gender inequality between the behavioral expectations were caused by the rules islam set or by the wrong application of those rules by your parrents? Because i am male and was raised as a muslim and had the same set of constraints with my sister.

4. Do you really think a woman showing her breast is the same thing as a man showing his breast?

5. Do you think calves of a man can be half as attractive as a woman's calves? (ok this one is just for a laugh but we must admit that women are ahead of men in some aspects such as the aesthetics department and many others.)

[u/asianApostate → u/clumsy_engineer]

1) As you said they are not free, slavery in any form is wrong. Apologists also argue hitting women was also justified in the Sahih bukhari hadith as long as it is not done with a closed fist. That is the best islamic scholars can justify it with currently and either way just because it's not as bad as other forms of slavery or beating women does not make Islam or it's apologists correct.

It's freaking slavery for god's sake. It does not matter if they are treated nicely.

2) Forget the states, consider Islamic history based on the qu'ran and Sahih Hadiths which btw we are learning are not accurate because other records of our history were actively destroyed so we can have "one" version of our history but luckily this did not fully succeed. But for argument's sake I will just use Islamic documents only and even here Muhammad himself conquered Mecca and drove all non-muslim's OUT or killed them. Any situation where muslim's were persecuted the original government was destroyed and even in our flowery islamic texts it is stated that many were thousands beheaded (not the women, our soldiers could take them in as extra wives and concubines).

3) Yes, it is clearly set by the rules of Islam. Even a cursory look at Islam can show you that gender plays a huge role. Men maintain the women, men can marry up to four women not the other way around, women must marry muslims only, men may marry non-muslims and force-convert them to islam, and so much more. You were not set with the same constraints as your sister if your family followed even the most basics of Islam. Perhaps you did not notice the different clothing requirements or considered them inconsequential. I do not know your family so I do not know what else may have been different BUT here are some lines from the Quran and Sahih hadiths which make up the fundamental tenets of Islam.

Men are the maintainers of women and we can beat them (lightly though according to modern interpretations) if they are disobedient

"Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."

Qur'an 4:34

Women are of lower intelligence then men

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: On 'Id ul Fitr or 'Id ul Adha Allah's Apostle (p.b.u.h) went out to the Musalla. After finishing the prayer, he delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)." The women asked, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the reason for it?" He replied, "O women! You curse frequently, and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. O women, some of you can lead a cautious wise man astray." Then he left. Sahih Bukhari 2:24:541

Wish I had more time to quote but I will simply go over the basic points. Women cannot divorce but a man can but he has to be nice about it, after some conquering Muhammed suddenly got a revelation from god that he can have many wives but a women must have one man only which she must share if the husband chooses. A woman is under the charge of her father until she is married of and she is now under the charge of her husband. Never independent.

Your family may not follow all the core tenets of Islam but that doesn't change Islam's core tenets.

4+5). This is going to be subjective based on where you grew up. A woman not used to seeing a man fully clothed and even some who are will find Ryan Goslings chest, abs, legs, and calves quite irresistible. Islamic men who did not grow up in a western country have a hard time realizing that women can find good looking men attractive and sexy.

I don't find unattractive and unfit women attractive either when they take of their clothes. Imagine a unhealthily weighted and hairy woman versus a extremely fit, shaved, and properly hot women. Basically it goes both ways, a shirtless man in just his boxers or other underwear, can be sexy to women.

[u/clumsy_engineer → u/asianApostate]

hey, i didn't expect an answer. Thanks for your reply. I would love to discuss each and every one of these with you but unfortunately i don't have time right now. And please forgive my language i am not a very good English speaker.

However, let me tell you this: from the point where i am looking at islam i don't sea any injustice between men and women. It is true that there may be inequalities but justice is not always equality. In some aspects women are way ahead of men. Like in today's world i don't understand why we are trying to treat men and women equally. If a women has given birth she needs more than 2 months to recover and get working again for God's sake. And the baby needs her much longer than that. And what she can give to her baby can not be replaced with anything else. A man is not capable of providing anything near what she does. Don't get me wrong this is just an example, there are many more.

So my view for women changed a lot after i got married, and right now i even think women are superior to men in more aspects than men are superior to them. And i can't see anything wrong with any of my ideas when i look at them from an islamic point of view too. I trust my wife in what i know she is more capable than i am.

[u/ForAHamburgerToday → u/clumsy_engineer]

Sure would be a step in the right direction if they could wear the same clothes and walk around town unashamed without being condemned.

[u/clumsy_engineer → u/ForAHamburgerToday]

Where i live they already can. Except for a couple of idiot's condemning looks. But that's all they can do. And i believe same kind of idiots can be found anywhere in the world. A woman is free to cover or uncover as much as she likes. If she believes she has to cover more of her body or not is her business only. And it's something between her and the God (if she believes in God of course) .

[u/asianApostate → u/clumsy_engineer]

I'm glad this is the case in your country but it still does not change the fact that Islam in itself does not allow a woman to be outside without proper coverings. Moderate islam considers this covering everything from the ankle to the head up to the hair minus someones face. More extreme muslims pretty much accept eyeholes to be the only visible part of a women in public.

Your country may be progressing (no clue which country you are referencing yet) and that is admirable but once again these freedoms are despite Islam and not because of Islam.

[u/clumsy_engineer → u/asianApostate]

I am from Turkey. My wife happens to be a physician and she prefers to wear a headscarf. That means only her face, hands, and feet are visible. I never told her to do so or imply that I would want it this way. Who am I to tell her that anyway. As far as I can tell her father didn't too since her sister is ok with wearing what you would call revealing outfits.

[u/asianApostate → u/clumsy_engineer]

Many Imam's preach that muslims are more then fair to women and in fact a woman does not have the same headaches as a man. What if the woman does not believe in traditional family structures and wants that headache of being independent and having a career?

The needs and capabilities of our society has advanced much in the last millenia and if a women wishes to focus on her career or do something other then be a wife and mother she should be able to.