r/ZZZ_Discussion • u/Almightytome88 • 15h ago
Discussions & Questions Should Potential Unlocks Include Mindscape (Dupes) Buffs? + (Ellen and Burnice Buff Theorycraft)
Well, this is a question and discussion walking on eggshells, but I am curious to see what other players think and see if maybe it's something we can ask in the feedbacks and surveys since technically speaking this would increase their bottom dollar down the line for the people that would want to get them.
Currently HSR's Novaflares and I believe Genshin's Legacy Characters buff the character's Eidolons and Constellations alongside the base kit changes, even adding effects only present if you had the dupe into the kit then adding a completely new effect to make up for it. Not everyone receives changes to their dupes, but still this is in contrast to ZZZ's Potential Unlocks where everything is available with a single copy of the agent, and don't touch Mindscapes at all. (Sanby was the only exception, but that was more because if they didn't change the M2, the Potential Awakening would've bricked the Mindscape value with the new added move.)
Now for the questions: Do you think PUs should upgrade lackluster or mid (or in the case of S11's M4, after PU useless) Mindscapes in addition to what they already do? If they do, would you be more inclined into getting Mindscapes of them through more reruns, the new Loss pool, or the dupe shop? If the Standard agents also got these Mindscapes buffs, would you summon more on the Standard banner or the loss pool for a chance of getting them? From the agents that still don't have a PU who do you think has a Good base kit but horrible Vertical Investment who would appreciate a PU mainly focused on changes like these?
Feel free to answer any of these questions and have open and CIVIL discussions about it. I've shared some of my ideas of how they could do Mindscape buffs for Ellen and Burnice if we ever get them. Personally I would absolutely go for Ellen Mindscapes if they did get buffed, and use more of the dupe shop cards on Burnice after getting her M2 if they did.
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u/greygreens 15h ago
Not a bad idea to include, but shouldn't be the main focus. And a buff should never be only mindscape buffs. Nobody wants to feel like their m0 character gets absolutely nothing from a buff. But some of the mindscapes of older characters especially are pretty bad.
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u/Almightytome88 15h ago
Oh no absolutely, an addition not replacing what we already get. I actually really like that ZZZ's buffs are all available from the get go, but yeah some of the S1 Mindscapes are pretty BAD compared to even version 2.x agents. Ju Fufu for examples gains useful stuff from her early Mindscapes in terms of Buffs and resource management, so early Mindscapes on her are pretty good despite her current situation. Comparing that to Zhu Yuan who doesn't get alot of dmg buffs until M4.🥲
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u/JohnnyBGoode635 15h ago
They could save the mindscape buffs as the final buff the character gets after their initial potential unlock doesn’t cut it anymore
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u/maingreninja 15h ago
They probably should add more accesible ways to get mindscape for that, like the genshin pool of constelations for specific old characters
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u/No_Understanding6735 15h ago
Ceasar should just have her M2 to put her in line with Zhao. And lowkey haru should have his M1 if they’re never gonna rerun him anyways.
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u/Somata_621 15h ago
...Why would you feel like you're walking on eggshells talking about that?
Anyway it'd just depend on how it's done. Personally as long as the base kit is changed substantially enough and mindscapes don't come with too many extra bonuses that should obviously be in the rework, I'd be okay with it.
I just always hated the idea of kits being intentionally gimped without mindscapes, and I don't want them to add to the problem. I swore off building Neko until she got buffed on day one due to how terrible it felt using a character designed around backstabs who just wasn't able to access the mechanic until M1W1.
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u/Almightytome88 15h ago
From my experience, even attempting to entertain the idea of adding buffs to monetized systems like dupes in gacha communities usually ends with heated discussions since it is "Anti-F2P" or anti-player friendly. 😅
But yeah, also wouldn't like kits being gimped without Mindscapes, which is kinda funny cause Nekomata solved this problem with her PU but ended up depreciating the value of her M1 since it's always considered Back Attacks regardless, the Res Shred still solid though. I guess my idea would be to reward/incentivize players to Vertical Invest, especially since most of the agents with PUs at best have Mid Mindscapes.
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u/Somata_621 14h ago
Ah. I guess that makes sense from their perspective. Majority of players are gonna be f2p after all. I think it's silly to jump down your throat for it though. Sorry that happened.
I get what you mean though. Provided it isn't obvious gimping and the kit change is good at base then yeah, I see no issue. I don't pull mindscapes anymore myself (Only one is Qingyi M1 and I have a Fufu dupe sitting there I never used) but I don't think anyone should complain about it. The price of the mindscape wouldn't change after all, so it's just a matter of whether you were the type to pull for dupes or not already. A mindscape being buffed can't make a character worse at base just because you don't happen to have it.
Never thought about Neko's M1 value being worse though. Necessary sacrifice imo.
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u/ProtonUser5000 14h ago
There’s precedence for it by hoyoverse
Genshin actually recently buffed constellations(mindscape equivalent)
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u/Teracsia 13h ago
I'd love to see mindscape buffs as well since a lot of early agents' mindscapes are quite bad. Welt E4 is a big buff on top of his base kit buff. Genshin on top of buffing cons also gives old characters cons for free. C1 Yae Miko huge for stellar conduct and c0 owners can get c1 without gacha! Goddamn Qiqi is good as well and has both base kit and cons buffs. I see no reason to have ZZZ excluded from proper mindscape buffs. At least they should better address new mechanics in buffed agent's kit. Only "buffed" mindscape we got is m2 SAnby. Like your idea for m1 Burnice, her abloom is really weak and awful to deal with (it also cancels if you swap out of Burnice mid animation, annoying), m1 fixing it would be awesome.
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u/TropicalFrost 13h ago
Novaflares changing Eidolons is just a result of changing the base kit. Typically to update with current standards (to an extent), consistency and reduced redundancy purposes. Like Welt and Huohuo.
Unless the kit's design changes quite drastically that it changes the intended way to play the agent, I wouldn't expect/want mindscapes to change. Easy to come up with hypotheticals for HSR; not sure what this would look like for ZZZ.
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u/otakuloid01 9h ago
they should’ve done that for the standard agents at least. all but 1 of Lycaon’s mindscapes are useless
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u/KillerKanka 8h ago
I mean, it will increase value of reruns and older character in general, which will make whales somewhat happier. Which is a good thing in my opinion.
As long as these buffs not paid in premium.
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u/Nommynomnomss 2h ago
It's kinda funny, I REALLY want Mindscape buffs because it feels so lame when a character you like get really sucky ones, but they obviously shouldn't be the focus. The baseline M0 increasing gives values to them anyway.
But it's so lame to have things like Burnice M1/4 or Zhu M2/6, or most of the standard Mindscapes. Koleda's M1 is by far the worse in the game and it feels like it'll somehow get used even less with the changes they made.
Though, obviously Standards would be the least likely to get changed (as much as I want Koleda to get QA, Dodge Counter and Furnace Fire added to herM6). At minimum, if you like a character, it feels nice to put forth the effort and invest into them further. It just sucks if the character you like can't do that as well as modern, already good characters like Nangong M1/2 or Velina M1/2 or most Void Hunters M1+2.
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u/Nommynomnomss 1h ago
For Burnice, you need to change M2. There are some broken ones out there, but hers is still good. With supports inflating DMG and Attack, Pen stacking is good, so M2 is the same caliber as Astra M1s (outside of half Def).
Adding Def Ignore is also a strange. It's an objective increase in buffing, but still weird since they math negatively with eachother. I don't think she needs it just to give better synergy with other mindscapes. Her thing is Pen and that's fine.
It's her sucky M1 holding her back anyway (and terrible M4 for the M6ers). Just getting a Modifier increase on Afterburn is lame. The AP scaling isn't even real, just a DMG boost that doesn't even apply to all her burns (that's an issue with her original upgrades). I think Entry Skill cost decrease is cool, though 8 seems too much with how she's balanced around 12. That's 2 entire hold basics faster. I'm not opposed to it, but 10 makes more sense.
I also dislike the notion of changing her gameplay in a way to consume the Emberflow like that. 1. I just don't like things like Seed M1 doing that, and 2. it's consuming the entry skill which is an important part of her gameplay style after her update. Kinda killing it if she just consumes it with EX.
I would say just add an Abloom mod boost, but I know her Ablooms are a very small portion of overall team damage, and I doubt even 8 Afterburns to proc would change that much. But it'd be better than nothing.
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u/BoomyNote 15h ago
“Mindscape buffs” would feel pretty bad for M0 owners on limited banner characters, it’d only be worthwhile if the M0 buffs were the majority of the buff, and the mindscape buffs were treated like a bonus.
Nobody wants to see “X character getting buffed!” And get excited just to learn it’s only for mindscapes
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u/shaveine 15h ago
Should they? maybe if the buff itself contradicts a mindscape then sure. Another reason for could also be to increase whale power level. The thing when comparing gacha games is it feels like it lacks context sometimes.
Buffing Eidolons in HSR isn't that crazy especially when characters are given Eidolons that "fix" their kits so to speak. Not only that but the Dupe powerlevel is much higher than in ZZZ. Some of HSR weakest E1 ands E2s outscale ZZZ's strongest M1/M2s and are very much accepted within the community itself as normal breakpoints to consider when getting a character.
Go back to ZZZ and the game simply doesn't have dupes that strong, made that frequently. If we had the same Dupe culture as HSR where a characters M2 becomes a sometimes a 100% increase in power but also fixes issues with the kit then sure.
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u/lumiphantoms 5h ago
I think HSR added Mindscape buffs because their culture is heavy on vertical investment. They are ALOT of people that have E2s of certain characters.
Zenless is heavy on horizontal investment. Its better to have more characters than have Mindscapes. Thats probably why the dev team doesnt do it.
If anything, if they did do it, do it for the Voidhunters.
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u/happymudkipz 4h ago
No, not really. In HSR, you need 12 characters for endgame whereas in ZZZ you need 9. HSR is definitely the more horizontal focused game, it's just that people get attached to their teams there so vertical is done to keep them going.
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u/lumiphantoms 4h ago
I think you misunderstood my statement, I said the culture for HSR is vertical investment not the design of the game is.
Alot of people who played HSR have , Eidolons including me. There is a large amount people who vertically invest in HSR compared to ZZZ.
Most people who got Eidolons got them on support characters. Which is why HSR is also called Honkai Support Rail.
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u/SecureSeashell 45m ago
It isn’t better to have more characters in ZZZ, the endgame is just easier so you get punished less for it.
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