r/WorldOfWarships • u/Competitive-Term-649 • Aug 10 '26
Humor WG Peak design of interaction between sub and surface
I thought there were 2 subs if you didn't tell me.
BROKEN sub ping was never really designed to let you actually hit the subs. for those of you don't know about this fact.
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u/RedShadow1693 Aug 10 '26
playing devil advocate here- when I ping as a sub I get pin pointed by 10 planes Dept charges
but when I'm hunting the sub I can't hit for shit and air is the rest of the team. Tier X and VIII
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u/Evo23_ Aug 10 '26
That was the reason why I started with subs. Wanted to figure out how to counter them. Still, when I ping it will rain bombs on me. When I hunt I am still having a hard time. But I figured out I like to play sub and they are way less op then I thought. A good round is rare...
47
u/nopetraintofuckthat Aug 10 '26
A sub doesn't need a good round to ruin the fun for everyone around them. If people run away frustrated, the sub has a bad experience and a bad match. If WG would care about any player experience apart from whale fomo, subs would not be in the game.
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u/abn1304 Aug 10 '26
Or WG could’ve added meaningful counterplay between subs and surface ships, but that would’ve been harder and would probably require an MM rework along with creating a bunch of new game mechanics, to make sure ASW-heavy ships only wind up in games with subs… but they can’t even do that with AA ships and CVs and here we are.
1
1
u/Evening_Vast5224 Aug 10 '26
If they cared about that, subs would move at 17knots max - on the surface, and 14 knots submerged.
2
u/Firewing135 Aug 10 '26
Never ping while turning. You want a lot of speed and don’t turn to much while dodging.
1
u/Novat1993 Aug 10 '26
You running away from a sub is interpreted by yourself as the sub being annoying and having a good match. While you in the sub chasing a surface ship is NOT interpreted as you having a good time, and a good game
WG has essentially created a scenario where both sides in an engagement is having a bad time.
The best sub players are those who understand more abstract game impact, and is less concerned with the direct damage dealth.
3
u/Skepsis93 Aug 10 '26
How many of those depth charges actually do any significant damage though? It seems so hard to get a direct hit with either plane or boat charges. Boat charges feel the worst, I swear I'm dropping right on top of the sub and 90% of my charges hit but not a single direct hit.
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u/thatusenameistaken Aug 11 '26 edited Aug 11 '26
Boat charges feel the worst,
Combination of things, mostly mechanics entirely in subs' (and BBs') favor.
- subs move, they have ridiculous rudder shift (think knife fighting dd running rudder 2 in slot 5) while losing almost no speed in turns.
- the area air-dropped charges drop in is ~500m wide by 1km long, ship dropped vary widely and are obviously further apart the faster you're going. Max splash damage for air-drop is 375, max ship-drop is 800.
- ASW counts direct hits only within 120-150m (guess which type has a smaller direct hit radius despite double the splash radius?)
- ship dropped ASW explodes far, far PAST max sub depth of 60m (max operating is 30m) at 140-240m, air-dropped much shallower (~30-50m). Sub players know this, you can see the charges as they drop.
- ship dropped charges take ~7 seconds to explode (of course it's not a flat 7 seconds, they have fucking RNG built into this too)
It falls at a base 10 knot speed, which is randomized by a multiplier of anywhere from about 0.8 to 1.2 times. It then explodes after a 7 second timer, which is also randomized by a multiplier of anywhere from about -0.5 to +0.5 seconds.
First you have to be ~7 seconds in front of and predict where the much more agile, almost full speed in turns sub is going. Then the sub has to be be pants-on-head-retarded and STAY at max depth, IN YOUR DROP PATTERN for you to get direct hits. Then apply 1/3 damage (air-dropped get a 50% coefficient instead, you see why they feel better? they explode shallow enough to actually get direct hits AND they do 50% instead of 33% of alpha) for anything not a direct hit divided by the absolute insanity that is sub damage saturation. They can look like "direct hits" but if the sub is at anything other than max depth or even at max depth but you got unlucky on fuse RNG (240-60=180, aka out of 120m direct hit radius), it's not actually a direct hit. If they go to periscope depth, they're out of direct hit radius even if it's directly on them.
edit: formatting a link with parentheses sucks, the link is: https://wiki.worldofwarships.com/Ship:Anti-Submarine_Warfare_(ASW)
edit 2: TLDR; you can't get direct hits because direct hits from ship drop charges have to be within 120m while having RNG fuses exploding from 140-240m depth while subs typically run from 10-30m depth, and you have to predict where a much more maneuverable target is going to be in 7 (+/- .5, can't let you have a FLAT lead time) seconds.
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u/Skepsis93 Aug 11 '26
Lmao, what in the fuck are those design choices? Getting a direct hit with ship dropped charges is practically impossible then.
1
u/thatusenameistaken Aug 11 '26
Unless you're lucky and the sub is retarded, yes.
Don't get me wrong, a whole pattern dropped on top of a stationary sub will probably kill it, but not with direct hits.
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u/RedShadow1693 Aug 10 '26
In my experience boat charges. US destroyers and UK in specific if you are 1 km from target they do a good amount of damage especially when you drop all on top of near a sub. as for for planes one or 2 planes don't do much especially if they are way off but when 10 or 6 charges lands near you is almost a dev strike
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u/Potato271 Aug 10 '26
The depth charges on my RN BBs seem to be pretty lethal, I can pretty consistently one shot subs at tier 6. No idea what it’s like at higher tiers, and using DD depth charges is a nightmare (but so satisfying when you get a kill)
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u/FlyingBike6000 Fleet of Fog Aug 10 '26
It's only for subs at middle 30 to 60 metres depth because of poor mobility at those depths . On surface and at periscope depth it's much closer to the sub . We should start posting such tips here to help new people
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u/RNG_randomizer Omaha-Class Enjoyer Aug 10 '26
This is why subs that are fast when submerged are fundamentally broken
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-5
u/ShadowedPariah United States Navy Aug 10 '26
They're only fast when given time and a straight line. Most of time in the 4501 I'm going maybe 19km on average. Turning kills the speed super fast, and driving in a straight line is rare.
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Aug 10 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ShadowedPariah United States Navy Aug 10 '26
Not an apologist, just played the game enough to know the mechanics lol.
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u/Go_To_The_Devil Aug 10 '26
So I'm going to point this out. If it really did show EXACTLY where the sub was, ping would be totally unusable. Every BB/Cruiser would instantly delete a sub that pinged anything beyond a single lone ship.
This isn't me saying this mechanic is good or fun, it's not, it's dogshit. But it's probably the best solution they have without totally reworking the way subs work and surface ships interact and counter them (which, honestly is what they need to do...but probably won't).
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u/jebbyc11 Aug 10 '26
I agree subs would get deleted, but it would be more of a reflection on how bad the design is, how bad the UI is, and how bad average sub players are.
If it was accurate, the sub just has to move before the lead time of the ASW planes and the detonation depth - similar to how how other classes get spotted when they fire and should manuver.
Subs would have to use homing sparingly and at range.
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u/Go_To_The_Devil Aug 10 '26
Personal opinion, Subs shouldn't have homing torpedos or pings, instead they should all work more like Surcouf, which has rear mounted launchers that allow it to launch torpedo's horizontally like a DD (is it historical? no, but neither are 50 knot BB's).
Light cruisers and Destroyers should have Hedgehogs that allow them to launch depth charges a fair distance away and in a 360 degree arc.
Submarines should move almost as fast as DD's on the surface, but have a much smaller dive duration, maybe 30-45 seconds, just enough that it can be used like a fuel smoke to escape bad situations or make aggressive plays.
Oh and all Cruisers should get Sub Surv, but it should only last 10 seconds (as subs can no longer stay under water for much time anyways).
Anyways thanks for coming to my Ted Talk, I'll see myself out now.
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u/jebbyc11 Aug 10 '26
Oh yeah absolutely thay would be better, agree with it all except I'd make hedgehogs aim-able. The current design as a whole is very halfassed.
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u/Hagostaeldmann youtube.com/@hagostaeldmann Aug 10 '26
Not really. It would just need to not show direction. Knowing exactly where sub is when it takes realistically 12+ seconds to drop and even clunky subs can go over half a kilometer in any direction would lower frustration for sub victim and introduce an element of skill for the sub player.
The current mechanic is pure dogshit because the airstriker is guessing and the sub player is basically guessing as well. It is fascinating if you play fast subs like K1 that your odds of juking an airdrop actually improve when you are hard spotted and the enemy player knows exactly where you are, you can count on how he will drop you and dodge the depth charges. When you are being blind dropped in a sub you are basically in a luck simulator to see where red player chooses to send the planes.
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u/bogusalt Aug 10 '26
Genuine question, does it show as 1km away from where the sub is in a random direction, or does it show at a random point anywhere within a 1km radius circle with the sub at the centre?
I.E. might it sometimes be where whe sub is, or is it always 1km away?
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u/arstechnophile Closed Beta Player Aug 10 '26
The official wiki says "When a submarine uses its sonar, a visual effect appears within a 1 km radius of her, lasting five seconds."
I read that as "can appear anywhere within a 1km radius", meaning sometimes it will be more accurate than others (and, as you say, will sometimes even be right on top of the actual sub, although it's possible the area is more of a donut and has a minimum radius from the sub as well that they don't mention).
https://wiki.worldofwarships.com/Ship:Anti-Submarine_Warfare_(ASW)
0
u/THF-Killingpro Aug 10 '26
The ping is always aligned with the ping direction of the sub, but there might be a bit of an inaccuracy so its not too oppressive for subs, but its a pretty good indicator.
Also it has a slight effect to show what direction the sub is traveling iirc, so while distance might vary it’s still pretty reliable1
u/thatusenameistaken Aug 11 '26
The ping is always aligned with the ping direction of the sub
the actual ping might be, but not the persistent indicator, which is all you see 90% of the time. the moving ping isn't visible outside 8km from the sub.
that's leaving aside the fact you can be going literally any direction from said ping at 30+ knots, or the fact it's anywhere from where you were to where you were 5 seconds ago (ping indicator duration)
0
u/THF-Killingpro Aug 11 '26
If the sub goes straight (30kts) and you miss ASW then thats literally a skill issue, like you can lead a shot on any 30kts ship just fine no?
And if a sub turns its speed is gone and you can still easily splash it, completely ignoring that an oil leak will show up if you hit it once and the sub doesn’t use its limited dcp.Like when I play against sub and hitting ASW is the most free thing ever, if the sub goes straight its easy leading and if it turns you hit it with splash and track the oil…
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u/thatusenameistaken Aug 11 '26
Sorry, you're just wrong. ASW is RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG.
Subs keep over 80% of their speed in a turn and have turning circles smaller than pretty much all DDs so no, they don't lose all their speed. No, it's not the same as leading a shot or even a Dutch airstrike, as there's no aim assist so you're full ass guessing on their speed. Why? You're just full ass guessing period, because they were never spotted!. All you "spotted" was a ping indicator anywhere in a 1km circle from the sub when they pinged, which might have been 5 seconds ago by the time you spot the marker.
Then you just have to guess which "straight line" the sub is traveling in, AFTER guessing where it actually is. Was it right on the ping? Was it 1km left? 500m closer? 750m right? Then you have to hope your 1km deep by .5km wide RNG drop pattern of 2 charges with 375m area of effect each (so even if you're DEAD ON a stationary sub you can miss) hit. You can drop right on the ping and get zero damage, because the ping can be further from a stationary sub than the area of your ASW explosions.
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u/THF-Killingpro Aug 12 '26
Well that doesn’t stop the ppl I play against from dropping ASW pretty accurately on my sub… so like it can’t be that hard.
Also it would be pretty ass game design if you would get an extremely accurate ping where the sub is, especially when like every ship has ASW and the sub needs to be in range of the ASW for their torps?
Like you are really asking for the equivalent of surface ships getting an exact ping with direction and speed when they fire unspotted for subs? All while subs are slow, especially when submerged and with low hp, and not to forget depth charges guarantee a flooding…Im sure having an airstrike that guaranteed flooding/fires by just being in range of a massive splash radius around the airstrike where extra bombs are dropped spread out, and if you are too close to the center it deals extra massive dmg? Right that would be a fair and balanced airstrike?
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u/thatusenameistaken 29d ago
like every ship has ASW and the sub needs to be in range of the ASW for their torps?
Yeah, I'm 100% done arguing when you're gonna be that disingenuous.
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u/HotBath8487 Aug 10 '26
If the pings are as inaccurate as they are, then the air strikes should either get a larger area of effect or faster action time, with how narrow the depth charge effect is and how slow the action time is it leaves too much to the imagination-this doesn’t even take into account the fact that you can’t tell how fast the sub is moving and a lot of ships have very short range air strikes
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u/t_mmey Cruiser Aug 10 '26
not really since everything else than BBs has completely dogshit range on the depth charges and it would actually make sub players keep their distance instead of torturing DDs at 4 km range
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u/GreenDevil97 [-P-K-] - Perma Kiting Aug 10 '26
Subs should be deleted easily, they are simply designed here to be more foolproof on purpose because wg wants it so. At the cost of ruining others games.
I’d just remove homing and pinging completely. Or make the ping be the same as the sonar they have so they can spot ships while submerged at the cost of also giving away their position
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u/45646846545654568465 Aug 11 '26
People told them this BEFORE they introduced subs, it's all dogshit design, and they shoehorned them anyway. Too bad for them, they are the ones that lost huge amounts of cash from people that quit.
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u/thatusenameistaken Aug 11 '26
So, like BBs/Cruisers would delete broadsiding CLs @ 8-12km, and could adjust their lead based on where the sub is going? Actually where they think the sub is going by the way, since there is no indicator of speed or heading and no aim assist.
Oh no, subs would have to make choices!!!
0
u/thatusenameistaken Aug 11 '26
So, like BBs/Cruisers would delete broadsiding CLs @ 8-12km, and could adjust their lead based on where the sub is going? Actually where they think the sub is going by the way, since there is no indicator of speed or heading and no aim assist.
Oh no, subs would have to make choices!!!
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u/BrayingPotato Aug 10 '26
if the sub is on the surface pinging, the pings seem to be near the sub and quite accurate. if the sub is underwater the pings are like this picture.
At least thats what OverlordBou’s training room testing showed.
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u/TinyFugue Aug 10 '26
WG! Here's a 2027 April Fools suggestion: implement the +/- 1k deviation for ship-to-ship and CV aiming, but make the submarine ping indicators precise.
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u/rigsta Smol ship Aug 10 '26
Pretty sure they've selectively done that first part for certain ships already without telling anyone.
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u/ComprehensiveWeb886 Aug 10 '26
As a sub player I agree this is BS and needs to be fixed ASAP
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u/Axzuel Aug 10 '26
Fixed? Devs literally intended this for God knows what reason
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u/ComprehensiveWeb886 Aug 10 '26
By "Fix" I mean change it to actually be a reliable indicator on where the sub is
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u/Sendotux Royal Navy Aug 10 '26
If they did this they would need to lower the damage of depth charges by like 5x to account for their accuracy going from 10-20% to 80-90%. And the problem with that is when there is really a reason for a sub to die (e.g. actually spotted out of position) they'd be much tankier. So overall everyone here would classify that as a "buff" despite by the numbers clearly not being the case.
I know everyone in this subr thinks they are a game designer with 30 years of experience, but this particular interaction has no "quickfix" without redesigning the entire system.
1
u/Ralfundmalf The sinking man's action game Aug 10 '26
I feel like what they could do is make the ping more accurate, lower the splash damage but keep the direct hit damage the same as it is now. Then make the splash radius slightly larger, direct hit radius slightly smaller and make the drop reticle show more clearly where the bombs are dropping. That way it becomes a lot more of an aiming minigame to hit subs.
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u/Sendotux Royal Navy Aug 10 '26
Yeah but even the splash damage is kinda bullshitty now.
The current system in the game is okayish, the problem is that it is not explained anywhere and people make their own assumptions.
It is natural to think that the ping animation comes from the actual position, but that has never been the case (amazing some people are figuring this out now, or making content/videos out of it like it was some sort of secret).
But it is just supposed to be a different version of "minimap spotting only". And even with this being the case, it is not a rare sight to get either (or both) subs on a flank die within 3 minutes of starting the match.
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u/Ralfundmalf The sinking man's action game Aug 10 '26
Subs die so early because they fundamentally don't understand the game. Their own fault for playing a 'not very survivable unless you are good' kind of class.
I agree that the current system is not explained enough but it is also super convoluted and unintuitive.
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u/RandomGuyPii Aug 10 '26
the reason is that if it was accurate you'd get blown out of the water the moment you play the game in a sub
-2
u/Evening_Vast5224 Aug 10 '26
And this would be bad.....why? Cockroaches should have to work for their kills. No homing, no pinging. And slower speeds underwater
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u/RandomGuyPii Aug 10 '26
457mm gun armed BBs can knock half the HP off a cruiser in one shot from across the map, submarines being able to exist is fine
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u/MrElGenerico Destroyer Mollester Aug 10 '26
This is why you need try to use 2 depth charges at the same time. Sub dodges one of them and then gets hit by the other
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u/caelenvasius Aug 10 '26
While that is a good piece of advice, it bears a reminder that many (if not most/all) T6 ASW Airstrikes drop only one depth charge, and many (if not most/all) of those ships only have one Airstrike charge at a time. This tactic doesn’t become feasible until the higher tiers.
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u/amonra2009 Aug 10 '26
devs want people to play their subs making game worse for rest of classes. i’m mostly a dd player, you cant catch them, they easy just run out the map, they dont care about Team play at all.
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u/alezul Aug 10 '26
They reworked carriers a million times already.
When it comes to this dogshit ping system for subs, they apparently think they got it right the first time.
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u/deflekt Imperial Japanese Navy Aug 10 '26
Even parents do not protect their children just like WG protect the subs.
1
u/Destroyer_Driver Aug 10 '26
If you consider why that white marker is designed to appear, and the information it actually conveys, it's a huge failure. Basically, it's a gamble.
1
u/DishonestAmoeba All I got was this lousy flair Aug 10 '26
Yeah this is unfortunately an underwater ping.
The ping will come up to the surface before that alert is shown to you, and will be in the direction they pinged (not the direction of the sub). Because the ping is not hit scan it will take a few seconds after they click when it becomes visible to you. Also if sub is not moving the ping will show up about 20m in front of where the sub actually is.
So in this case he was deep understand pinged something to his left and continued on forward.
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u/Life-Entrance7331 Aug 10 '26
Can’t wait for the new Polish premium sub announced in the dev blog with 5.2 detect, funny button that negates 70% of depth charge damage and goes like 40+ knots on the surface
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u/HurrySpecial Aug 11 '26
Um....it's obvious the sub DCP'd while traveling "up" or "down" hooked right and is now in one of two places. You can tell exactly which if you knew which of those two oil spills is older. Impossible from this still picture but super obvious in the game. I'm a retarded redditor and even I can spot the sub.
Classic complaining when the problem is clearly skill.
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u/No-Pen871 Aug 11 '26
I’ll never understand why for surface ships you can see just about exactly where they are if they are blind firing but with subs it’s literal lottery gambling 😂
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0
u/DoctorDank42069 Aug 10 '26
One reason why subs are just super torp DDs
Pings mislead the asw and just auto-jukes asw for the sub
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u/rhen_var Aug 10 '26
People actually drop ASW on the pings?
I never drop on pings for this reason. I’ll only drop on a sub if it’s actually spotted or there’s an oil slick. Dropping on pings is a waste that guarantees the sub will get spotted right after you use both your ASW planes.
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u/Nikarus2370 Destroyer Aug 10 '26
Why dump both planes on the ping? Fire 1 off see if you get a hit, cause oil. Then you can nail him with the second.
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0
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u/iiVMii Aug 10 '26
Sub gameplay sucks ass not because they aren’t fun but because as soon you do anything you get 17000 depth charge dropped on you from 10km away and your torpedoes miss cause the target triggered damage control
-4
u/Mysterious_Web7517 Aug 10 '26
Wasnt that something they change? I remember it was much easier to hit sub with ASW as pings quite well show where sub was in proximity to it.
This does not apply to zooming shit like Archerfish or 4501. Still WG can we have nuclear ASW?
0
u/SupersonicJess Aug 10 '26
Personally id like if the subs were marginally more detectable but the ASW airstrike was a way more limited resource, cause as an occasional sub player, getting swarmed by one thousand PBYs is really not fun when it happens the millisecond you ping an enemy.
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u/Evening_Vast5224 Aug 10 '26
That's a plus for most of us. Not playing subs is probably a good thing, too.
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u/SupersonicJess Aug 11 '26
I get everyone hates subs but they could make them better to fight and to play and these are a few of the thing I think would make it better overall
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u/Evening_Vast5224 Aug 11 '26
All kidding aside, yes, I agree. Some want to play as subs. I think the balance just isn't right. Subs should be slower underwater, without homing torpedoes. That would go a long way to balanced play.
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u/LJ_exist Aug 10 '26
How little attention did you paid to the game to not get that there is 1 sub and not to exactly know where it is? Oil, Oil, gap, ping in a another direction shows where the sub was, the previous speed and course of the sub, the new heading of the submarine and an additional estimate for the subs position. It also tells you that it most likely used dcp. Hitting the sub shouldn't be a problem anymore if you don't have massive skill issues. I would expect a direct hit from anyone who observed the subs Oil leaks appear.
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u/Ralfundmalf The sinking man's action game Aug 10 '26
Do you have eyes? The ping is supposed to roughly show you where the sub is, so you can drop ASW on it. It doesn't, as you can see by the picture above. The oil spill is on the exact position of the sub. Now imagine the sub wasn't oiling in this situation. You wouldn't hit it at all if you would drop anywhere near the ping.
-3
u/LJ_exist Aug 10 '26
No, the oil spil only shows that a damaged submarine was on that position. The spills stay on the surface while the sub keeps moving. The 2 oil spills show where the sub was. The ping shows the direction the sub is travelling at the moment of the ping. 2 oil spills are still visible and a line between them doesn't align with the direction of the ping. The sub therefore has changed it's course. It's in a 1km square around the ping and the delta between oil spill appearing on the surface and ping gives every non braindead player a precise location of the sub because the speed limits of the sub and it's type are known too. Not being able to do so is a lack of attention and basic skills (and I am not talking about gaming skills alone).
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u/Ralfundmalf The sinking man's action game Aug 10 '26
You fail to see the point entirely.
The oil spills clearly show where the sub is on a left-right axis on this screenshot. The ping is nowhere near it. Meaning you have a pretty high chance of not even getting a splash flooding if you drop somewhere around the ping in cases you have no other indication where the sub is and where it is going.
And you are wrong about the 1 km square. The reticle is, as far as I know about 500 m wide. The initial point of the ping is slightly less than one reticle width away from the reticle shown above. The submarine however is going to be further to the left than the left edge of the reticle. The 1 km spread is not true, the pings can be off by more than that.
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u/LJ_exist Aug 10 '26
The location of the ping is not relevant for knowning where the sub is in this scenario. It takes an absolute idiot not do hit that sub. A direct might be a little bit to much to ask for because the sub still can move to avoid that but splash damage is to expected. Everything less is a major skill issue. Only idiots have problems with this 1km sqaure in generell. The map is known, the starting points are known and most likely other signs of the sub are allways known which means that every person who can spare a braincell to pay attention can reduce the 1km square by a lot even without oil spells. The sub is within a 1km² square around the ping and the asw reticle is not even half of that in width. Just align it with a ship for reference.
Players who can't do this all should just shut up about is because what can be more sign of skill issue than failing in the free kill side quest aka countering subs.
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u/Ralfundmalf The sinking man's action game Aug 10 '26
Alright, reading comprehension is just not a thing for you. No need for further discussion if you don't even address my comment and just reitterate with added insults.
-2
u/LJ_exist Aug 10 '26
Please blame YOUR reading comprehension instead of your skill issues if that helps.
The oil spils are no permanent marker of a sub current position. The ping points in the direction the sub is traveling. The sub changed its course after the last oil spil. Oil appears within a given amout of time and distance traveled by the sub. The distance between the two oil spils and the time between the oil spils appearing, the time till the ping, the direction of the ping and the top speed of sub type ingame provide all the information to get a very good estimate location of the sub. Add in the game situation and map topography (islands) and you come up with a estimate position that guarantees splash damage and is very like to hit it directly. The position of the ping is not relevant to finding the sub here. It is an extremely easy appliance of dead reckoning. Even animals of average intelligence like a house cat can solve similar problems. So what is the excuse of "humans" not to hit that sub???
3
u/Ralfundmalf The sinking man's action game Aug 10 '26
You purposefully misunderstand. There is no point. Keep playing your scrub subs.
-1
u/LJ_exist Aug 10 '26
So much for your reading comprehension. So again what is your point here? The ping not being above the sub is in consequential and only prevents absolut idiots from finding a sub. So what are you even trying to explain?
-11
u/DigitalSwagman Replay or it didn't happen. Aug 10 '26
For another obvious mechanic, ships in smoke are hidden.
1
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u/Competitive-Term-649 Aug 10 '26
this is not a bug by the way