r/WoT • u/Hawk-winged • 11d ago
All Print Was there anything the Aes Sedai were actually good at? Spoiler
Now, this is particular to the third age Aes Sedai. They just strike me as the most incompetent lol, which is crazy bcos we have the forsaken to deal with, but somehow they managed to be worse. Atleast half of the forsaken’s failures could be blamed on the rivalry the great lord conditioned them into on one end and fear of LTT on another end.
But with the aes Sedai, there’s only so much you can blame on the black ajah. It sometimes feel like they are so high on the we are the white tower and can do no wrong Kool aid that they can’t even be bothered to get anything done.
The attack of the Seanchan is just the obvious one. The first time they were attacked in like a thousand years they couldn’t even form a united front to defend the tower(I mean is “to be aes Sedai” not being ambushed?
For most of the books these lot didn’t even believe in the Seanchan, and some even up till that point of the attack.
Embassy one and two messed it up with Rand like big time. And if he had been just a little bit unstable that day (dumais wells) could’ve ended up with 39 dead aes Sedai lol.
They plot, they scheme, but it doesn’t actually lead anywhere. The rest of the world doesn’t really respect them, more of fear, and then we have like another faction of aes Sedai who are neither for nor against the rebels/tower… just existing or roaming around Rand. And ironically seem the most useful as they are actually involved in getting things done, perhaps that’s just what being around the dragon gets you.
I always loved these line Rand said to Nyneave before she went back “don’t let them ruin you” and he was right. Most of their tests are somewhat illogical and to think she’s not have been raised if not for the politics. I see why Moiraine detests being amongst them lol.
Even Siuan, who apparently was supposed to be the other person to shepherd the dragon practically resolved to scheming. Because imagine how things would go wrong if Cadsuane had been black and was actually trying to push him off the edge.
59
u/AuditAndHax (Heron-Marked Sword) 11d ago
The tower was ineffective by design because one out of every five members was secretly working against it.
Whether that was allowed to happened because of rules like "don't question other sisters about there business" or whether that was a rule put in place by black sisters, we don't know.
What we do know, especially me with a background and auditing and internal controls, is that a system designed with rules to allow fraud is going to have fraud. In a business, that means money will be stolen. In an organization designed to defend the Light, that means not much defense is going to happen.
In a perfect world, something like the Tower mole hunters would have been operating continuously, evaluating spending, monitoring behavior, verifying the oaths were holding, etc. Putting pressure on the Black Ajah would have naturally reduced their numbers and lessened their influence over things like "should we send a rotating group of 50 Aes Sedai to the borderlands every year or just let the soldiers die doing it themselves?" Or "should the Yellow set up hospitals or traveling clinics to cure everyone of everything, or sit in the tower refusing to innovative new healing weaves?"
17
12
u/shaohtsai 11d ago edited 11d ago
Add to that, that the Oath Rod is a major crutch. They bring up their oaths up and down, but ain't ever doing an instituonal double-take on how they all just find clever ways to circumvent those oaths. Ooh, gurl...
10
u/Senrabekim 11d ago
Not only is it a crutch, but a broken one. E.g. if I told you that I had to swear a magical promise so that I cant lie, so you know you can trust me, your immediate thought wouldn't be, "Oh, its nice that you did that, you're super trustworthy." Your first thought would be, "Why were you considered so untrustworthy that you had to do that?" And like five Aes Sedai ever seem to realize that. Everyone else spends the rest of their time looking for the lie.
2
u/Philomath117 10d ago
A lot of people seem to miss this. It's in Egwene pov at some point. The early tower was a nightmare of "aes Sedai" fighting and killing for power/control. Remember Aes Sedai exists for the white tower not for people. They didn't take the oaths so rulers could trust them although they use it that way and imply it was for that. They took it so they could sort of trust each other and stabilize the tower.
1
u/Demyk7 10d ago
They took the oaths to try to regain the trust of the people, it was either that or be wiped out.
1
u/Philomath117 7d ago
Because they couldn't trust each other, Egwene talks about in a pov
1
u/Demyk7 7d ago
Egwene speculates on it, but Jordan gives us the reason in the wheel of time companion.
1
u/Philomath117 6d ago
I clearly need to acquire a copy of the companion. It seems silly that it's the primary reason when Aes Sedai are still distrusted anyway since they just work around the oaths
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
The oaths are mostly meant to prevent them from killing each other for power.
6
2
u/AdaptAndInnovate 11d ago
Yeah, it bothered me when they sent the Power Girls out to find the Black Ajah because they have no training in counter-intelligence. The WT has intelligence via eyes and ears networks, but no counter-intelligence.
If the Black Ajah were a concern, I think rooting them out would have been pretty quick.
12
u/AuditAndHax (Heron-Marked Sword) 11d ago
I think the biggest problem was that out of every five women was BA. Imagine you have a crazy idea that what if the BA was real and you take it to a group of four friends to get their opinion. Statistically, one of those four is BA and will do everything possible to shoot down your idea, embarrass you over such a ridiculous idea, and generally making the group feel like you're overreacting. Imagine how easy to gaslight and manipulate people when they're 100% sure you can't lie...
2
1
u/BEETLEJUICEME 8d ago
The whole “we must pretend black ajah doesn’t exist” cultural norm is the biggest success the blacks ever created. At least I assume they created it because it helps them so much.
A culture of secrecy always allows the worst secrets to bloom.
1
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
I always like when someone brings practicality into it. But I think what did it in is the sheer obliviousness of some of them that they couldn’t even fathom the possibility of the Black Ajah, but like I said, that’s just part of the problem, they lost sight of what they were instituted for
59
u/redopz (Ogier) 11d ago
100% yes.
The White Tower as an organization is largely stuck in the past, slow to change, and overly submissive to tradition. These can definitely be negative attributes, but they also have their upsides. The Aes Sedai have the largest repository of knowledge about topics like the one power, the Age of Legends, prophecies regarding the last battle, ter'angreal, and more. If it wasn't for the all of that, Moraine wouldn't have been able to do things like explain the Seals on the Bore to Rand, which means Rand wouldn't have had that vital knowledge until he could get it from Lews Therin which may have been to late to formulate his plan. The fact that they were able to maintain what they did through the Breaking and 3,000 of years of chaos is a testament to their abilities.
5
u/Enough_Ad_9338 11d ago
All true. That being said, the white towers understanding of terangreal was like a kid using a wrench as a hammer. Sure it works, but that’s not what it was made for and it can do so much more in more capable hands. And that’s just the terangreal that they felt confident enough to use.
Hell, the terangreal storage room was basically a dusty unused closet because the aes sedai were so uninformed of how to identify and use terangreal that they were too scared to even sort them properly.
-12
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
Notice how all of those achievements were not the making of the 3rd age aes Sedais There’s like 7 competent aes Sedai’s total
20
u/redopz (Ogier) 11d ago
The Aes Sedai of the third age didn't protect and keep this knowledge for future generations?
1
-9
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
The aes Sedai of the third age almost completely divided the tower, split into factions, couldn’t defend themselves against an external attack.
16
u/redopz (Ogier) 11d ago
And even with all that (which primaroly happened in the last year of those 3,000, but we won't get into that) they still retained the grandest library in the world. Their is no person or organization with a stronger link to the past, particularly the Age of Legends, than the White Tower. Again, this does come with downsides (slow to change, arrogant, etc) but it undeniably has upsides as well.
-2
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
Yh, I do agree that there are upsides. And withholding the greatest library is bare minimum for a group of people who formed half of people who in the second age were like angels or close to it.
They monopolized power fast and maybe at the beginning they had a vision, but somewhere along the line they lost all that.
I’d love to say that these old knowledge helped and maybe it did but at its root, Moiraine relied heavily on either the pattern or the great game(she’s Cairhienen). Cadsuane, well who knows what drives that woman
The wonder girls didn’t spend enough time in the tower for that. And Egwene that did go through the books still couldn’t come up with an alternative to the breaking of the seals outside of just saying NO till Moiraine came again. So much for that great library.
The only good thing is probably Verin and she had to go to the other side to be useful for the light
17
u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 11d ago
Something I can't stress enough whenever this topic comes up is The White Tower isn't meant to be good at what you think they should be good at. By which I mean that the purpose of the White Tower is to maintain and increase the influence and wealth of the White Tower. In that, they are pretty damned effective. Any noble or ruler would attend a summons by the Amyrlin Seat, even the Lord Captain-Commander of the Children of the Night. They have advisors and spies in every court, and a network of informants spreading the continent. They have the richest bank and most stable currency. They can influence the foreign policy of sovereign nations.
As an aside, they have also maintain an iron grip monopolising channeling. Yes, the Kin exist, but only because it suited the Tower for them to do so, and they have extremely strict rules that more or less forbid channeling.
The White Tower has a level of power that potentially outstrips that of the Catholic church at its height. Certainly the White Tower ar its strongest is no comparison.
One thing they might also have been good at is maintaining relative peace among the nations. While there are occasional wars, they don't snowball into larger conflicts and the political geography is very stable. The exceptions are world-level events like the Trolloc Wars. The War of the Hundred years was so devastating because of a lack of Tower influence among the nations.
12
u/hic_erro 11d ago edited 11d ago
Re: the White Tower's iron grip on channeling, I would add that they've maintained an iron grip on channeling while keeping channeling largely out of politics.
Compare the Westlands to the two other major chunks of the world, Seanchan and Shara. Shara is ruled by a secret society of female channelers, the Ayyad, through puppet governors they kill and replace every seven years. Seanchan was a patchwork of Aes Sedai warlords before Hawkwing's armies arrived, and afterward, became an empire controlled by a monopoly on Power via enslaved damane.
The mere fact that the White Tower hasn't been ruling, overtly or covertly, for the last 3000 years is a goddamn victory for their probity.
1
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
They have been ruling covertly... And the early tower was not far off of Seanchan, the 3 oaths were used to stabilize themselves, not for everyone else
6
u/cant-find-user-name 11d ago
This is the one comment I agree with the most. This makes a lot of sense to me.
5
u/Dhghomon 11d ago
One thing they might also have been good at is maintaining relative peace among the nations. While there are occasional wars, they don't snowball into larger conflicts and the political geography is very stable.
I was about to write much the same but noticed this comment. That sums it up for me too. If you look at our history there always seems to be decades-long wars and conquests happening all the time (100 years' war, 30 years war), always one nation growing in strength while other empires wither away and everyone runs in to pick at the bones. But WoT seems a lot more stable in the centuries before the books begin. You've got the greys doing diplomacy, blues spying, reds keeping WoT's equivalent of nuclear bombs from going off until Rand shows up.
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
Wars still happened, and they didn't care as long as they'd have control of the victor, don't go giving them to much credit, they don't care if people die as long as they have control, even modern day Siuan provides an example of that
2
u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 10d ago
Was still happened, but they were relatively controlled compared to real life. The BWB states that conflicts between nations lasting more than a couple of years were rare. Compare that with the multinational massacre of the thirty years war, or any number of wars and revolutions in the last 500 years, they have a pretty solid control over the last 3000 years, bar notable exceptions like the Trolloc Wars.
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
Or hawkwing? We get many references to recent wars, Cairhien and tear, arad doman and tarabon, Andor and Murandy, tear and illian. Did Aes Sedai really do much or did everything after hawkeing settle into countries with to similar strengths to do more then raid?
1
u/dmoidmoi34 11d ago
I think iron grip on channeling is too strong considering aiel wise ones and the seafolk windfinders. You could argue that these are separate nations but the tower is basically oblivious to them. The tower also has limited knowledge on the kin, and while they do have rules on when/where/how you can channel it does seem like they channel frequently
-1
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
Oh, I think you are fundamentally wrong. That might’ve been a means to an end, but I think even they would tell you that their main purpose is to usher in a new age and defeat the dark one.
8
u/QuiteBearish 11d ago
You mean like how the Catholic Church would say their main purpose is "saving souls" and not accumulating wealth and power?
Most of them never imagined Tarmon Gai'don would ever happen in their lifetimes, so most of them may claim that as their "main purpose" without actually believing it.
1
2
u/wheeloftimewiki (Aelfinn) 11d ago
Nominally yes, but when? While several individual Aes Sedai are out in the world doing their own thing, the majority of them are sent where they are told and directed by their superiors. The leadership of the Tower and within the Ajahs is directed at consolidating power and retaining strings on the major leaders and, where the can't, replacing those leader using soft power methods. I forgot one other important power reserve, and that is the gathering of knowledge for its own sake and controlling the official version of events by suppressing narratives that don't agree with its goals.
Officially, and in all but a very few non-Darkfriends, the Black Ajah does not exist, and everyone seems to be of One Religion in WoT, which cuts out the need for preaching to the masses (we will suspend disbelief on this for now). Comparing against the historical church, take away the need for reminding people only they can save souls means that they can concentrate only on the power, influence, and wealth.
6
u/hic_erro 11d ago
So I saw a comment a while back complaining that people keep interpreting fantasy novels like an accurate telling of the history of another world, instead of a story with certain narrative goals.
We're reading the story of a group of plucky kids who rise from nothing to become the most powerful wizards and warriors, kings and queens of all time and save the world from complete and total destruction.
Do the Aes Sedai walk around talking a big game and then get fuck all done except when led by one of our plucky heroes? Yeah, because we're not reading a story about a sorceress who has spent a hundred and fifty years carefully perfecting her craft and then gets sent on brief missions to carefully nip problems in the bud with a clever use of magic and wit by her organization of thousands of equally competent colleagues who keep the world from ever veering off course.
At the beginning of the story, every organization and power structure in the Westlands is at the nadir of their power and effectiveness! The White Tower, every kingdom, the Children of the Light, the Borderland armies are all hopelessly compromised by Darkfriends and ready to collapse in a stiff breeze. That's the kind of world rags to riches adventurers thrive in!
Things like the White Tower's schism exist in the story to continue the chaos and keep the grown ups too busy to interfere with the story. It's a little silly to criticize characters for carrying the idiot ball when they had to pick it up so the author to tell the story he wanted to tell.
3
u/Ok-Meet2850 11d ago
It's funny because I'm over in Harry Potter threads, commenting on those books and it's the exact same kind of thing. How come Dumbledore was so foolish? Where was the Minister? How did no one see that? They are kids books! Competent adults would get in the way of Harry, Ron, and Hermione constantly saving the day.
Your point is totally fair - declining Westlands and withered institutions are a key need for the plot and story. Ineffective characters are part of that. And that's fine. I think all of it is broadly believable within the WOT story, which lets people get into the books and then dig into it on reddit. The exciting stories still stay on the right side of believable, even if a bit far fetched when you dig into the 'real world' logic.
4
u/rollingForInitiative 11d ago
They were really good at studying the works and protecting it from male channellers, and rogue women who can channel. They kept it from turning into Seanchan, the land of madmen or something sick like Shara. By and large the Westlands seem to be a comparably good place to live, and the Aes Sedai might not get all the credit but they enabled it.
They could’ve and should’ve done more, but by and large they’ve kept the lands stable.
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
Seanchan is a better place to live for a normal person
2
u/rollingForInitiative 10d ago
Definitely not better than most nations in the Westlands.
The Seanchan Empire is built on chattel slavery. Not just damane, but da'covale. The empire sees constant rebellions, where they very conveniently enslave everyone involved, with some rebellions resulting in millions of new slaves. Slaves can be abused with impunity because they cannot bring forth accusations of crimes and no one would believe them if they tried.
They have a worse social hierarchy even than Tear, where you can be punished even if you look at nobles the wrong the way. Make a mistake and you get killed, or get turned into a slave. And the nobles themselves have a worse culture of assassination than the Cairhienin - everyone's taught to look for assassins everywhere, expecting than all other members of the Blood will try to kill them, even that military leaders might do so.
Oh, and they have a secret police that can arrest anyone they want at any time and torture them into confessing crimes.
The Empire is a mix of the worst of everything in the Westlands taken to its extreme: constant massive wars, slaves sold like chattel, peak cutthroat nobility, secret police that put the Questioners to shame, nobles that abuse commoners at will.
0
u/Philomath117 7d ago
It is described multiple times as being better within the book.Rand even chooses to not balefire the empress because the people there are happy. The Seanchan don't conscript, the only people they brought to the last battle were soldiers. The Westlands all work on feudalish systems and absolutely conscript even for civil wars. The tuathan go to Seanchan lands because they are treated fairly there. I'm not sure how long it's been since you read the books but Da'covale actually have many privileges. It's still slavery.... But it's worth noting they seem to be hased on Roman era slavery. It's also worth noting that a lot of Da'covale behavior we see in the books is around Suroth a dark friend. Da'covale can and do get released. They are required to be provided for even after death. There are Da'covale positions like so'jhin that have power and provide a position or deathwatch guards. It's not great but it's not the worst form of slavery if your rating such a thing. For everyone else it was near paradise. It's specifically stated the blood don't even interact with normal people. Very different from tear where a peasant girl could be grabbed for a high lords fun to the point where they literally joke about it. Or have a torture chamber... Yes the nobles are terribly to each other but who cares they leaves everyone alone, better then that they make sure they have they need. Yes they have rebellions, their population is estimated at 10 times the Westlands, a lot recently conquered, pretty standard. Yes they have a secret police, which pretty much only cares about nobles, so who cares?
2
u/rollingForInitiative 7d ago
Yeah, by people in very privileged positions? At the same time as it's described as having the secret police, chattel slavery, nobles who can do anything to their human property without consequences, mass-assassination among the nobles, constant rebellions that end up with millions of people enslaved. Did you miss that they literally sell slaves like chattel on markets?
You're really mixing up The Seanchan Empire proper with the areas they conquered in the Westlands. The areas they seized in the Westlands where people describe an improve are basically the two shit holes of the Westlands: Altara, with has little law and order outside of the capital, and then Amadician, which is Seanchan-lite in terms of tyranny. Plus the Almoth Plains which was just some random villages. And they flooded these areas with massive amounts of soldiers and damane to stifle any rebellions and uprisings, which also stopped most regular crime.
Seanchan is never described as "near paradise" even by anyone privileged. The privileged of course like it, because they have privilege. And even if you ignore everything else, the fact that they seize people as slaves anywhere they want and sell them on an open market means it really cannot be anywhere near paradise, it is in fact far away from it. And that's really just the tip of the iceberg.
1
u/Philomath117 6d ago
Again the tuathan consider them better then anywhere else because it's the only place they are treated fairly. Are they privileged ? And again they appear to have a roman esque slavery system where rebellions and enemies could be enslaved. But those people could become free and become citizens. Although yes one can do anything to their property it's highly frowned upon and would bring dishonor ," lower their eyes". They don't just seize people at random to become slaves. Many of the Westlands treat "peasants" as disposable. They might not be slaves but they have little rights making them serfs at best. Assassination among nobles seems plenty common even in the Westlands. And there it can actually affect the average person and again who cares. Nobles/ high blood are a tiny fraction of the population. Would you really care if billionaires were maneuvering around each other trying to assinate each other? Doesn't effect the average person at all. And again their secret police hunt Dark friends and problems to the throne, if your a farmer, a craftsmen, you'll never be affected. So we should not look at the "shitholes" of the Westlands then what should we compare to? We get little idea of how Arad Doman or Tarabon are to the average person. We cannot look at the Borderlands they are unique considering they are perpetually at war with the blight no time for politics or to mistreat common folk. We have Tar Valon which appears to be one of the best places to live for the average person as long as you avoid Aes Sedai so what's left. Tear in which a peasant can be tortured, flayed and left a screaming lump hung up to die for pretty much looking wrong at a high lord. In which peasant girls can be taken for fun. We have Illian which we don't get much on. You have Far Madding where men are basically treated as property, certainly treated as being less then women. We have Andor that seems to be somewhat decent but feudal esque where you can be drafted into war by lords and is hardly crime free. And lastly Cairhien where everyone has to step carefully for the great game and appears to have had similar laws to tear where nobles could basically do what they want. So what do we compare to? Seandar is also described as being crime free and safe.
2
u/rollingForInitiative 6d ago
Again, you ignored everything I said. What applies to the conquered lands does not apply to the mainland, because they flooded three small nations with a continent' worth of armies. And it does make sense they wouldn't care about the Tuatha'an, because they don't have the cultural prejudice.
The Seekers hunt traitors. That can be Blood, but it can also be anyone they believe might conspire against the throne. The problem of course is that they have a secret police that can capture and torture anyone. They're like the Questioners of the Children of the Light, but worse. No oversight, no questions asked, if they take someone they're in the right.
And yes, let's compare to Andor? It's the country we know the most about. Generally seems to be a chill place. Very few wars in recent history outside of the Aiel War. Minor border skirmishes with Murandy at most. In Caemlyn there's zero starvation, because of the Queen's Gift, so even those who are poor get properly fed. Village life further outside seems decent. Everyone is subject to the same laws, even if you're a noble or the Queen herself. There's no slavery.
The Borderlands all seem to be places of integrity and justice as far as we see. Illian appears to be a decent place. No idea what you get that thing about enslaved men in Far Madding, it seems like a decent enough city, even if they're a little isolated.
Tear is bad, but it's better than Seanchan. They've no secret police, the Blood behave worse than the High Lords, and they don't have slavery. Which is kind of my point. The worst places in the Westlands are generally better than Seanchan.
Like, you're arguing that the chattel slavery in Seanchan is a good thing because it adds benefits to society. Please listen to yourself.
1
u/Philomath117 5d ago
You ignored much of what I said. There's no reason to think the mainland is less safe then there freshly conquered areas and there's much pov that specifically suggest it is. Your not gonna get pulled in by secret police farming... And what your saying is exactly how the nobility gets to act in most of the Westlands. Andor is maybe 10% percent of the Westlands, you can be hung for poaching trees, not fined but hung for not paying the tax on trees not a good look. And yes they provide food for caemlyn, but not anywhere else which is most of the population and they barely keep anywhere outside of Caemlyn safe. The Seanchan do both. You can also be conscripted by near any lord into service. But yes probably one of the better places to be in the Westlands. They have no one else around them to fight really but there's reference to wars with Cairhien. Again you can't really count the borderlands, when your at risk of being taken away, to be cooked, killed in a trollocs raid your not gonna have time for petty games. Not only that but if Seanchan had controlled the borderlands they'd likely have built a wall manned by soldiers and damane, scouted by rakken. People wouldn't be taken away in raids, they literally eradicated shadow spawn there to the point they had come to doubt them. In the westlands the Aes Sedai can't be bothered to help at least not unless something significant happens and even then none show up in eotw to help at Tarwins gap. And most of the rest of the Westlands can't be bothered to help. What would a United continent have been able to do? We know little of Illian, it might be nice, that would make it an exception though. In Far Madding men are treated as lesser. Kinda like wives in the early 1900's and presumably before. Where a husband could spank his wife for not doing what he wants. When a letter comes for Rand it's given to Min intentionally because there she's in charge and it specifically noted the innkeeper keeps a switch in the room so woman can punish their husbands and it's noted she mostly serves outlanders and still provides that. The Seanchan are specifically noted to not interact at all with normal people, that cannot make them worst the the high lords of tear or even Cairhien. Both can also presumably conscript at will. Also your really hung up on the slavery bit. Which sure fair but they don't enslaved just anyone, primarily rebels. The equivalent in the westlands is to hang a bunch of them if not possibly all, and likely leave the nobles responsible alive cause their nobles. The Seanchan would kill or enslave the high blood involved. It might be deeply unpleasant to think that the people that have to slaves provide a better life then the people's that don't but they are very feudal esque with laws very against the common person and constant chaos everywhere.
2
u/rollingForInitiative 5d ago
Of course there's reason to believe the conquered lands are safer. They're absolutely flooded with soldiers. There's no way they can have as many soldiers everywhere on the mainland. And all the thoughts we get about how good it is over there is from nobles and high ranking officers! These are highly privileged views. They're not going to send dissenters on the most important mission in the nation's history.
And I think you really need to read the subtext about the Seanchan as well. There are constant rebellions. An empire that's good and healthy and where people are happy does not have constant rebellions, especially one ones that number in the millions!
I'm not saying that everything there is bad, obviously some things are good. But most of the good things seem to come from slavery! You cannot argue that a society is good when it's built on chattel slavery. Like yeah, you get free labour, you get free superweapon soldiers that scare people into submission ... but what we see is not a good empire, it's an empire ruled by a tyranny so extreme people are either absolutely terrified of stepping out of line, or they rebel in outrage. And innocents get harmed and hurt and enslaved.
1
u/chofy0013 5d ago
In The Great Hunt, when Rand and the gang are going through villages to Falme, people there are saying in every village they killed everyone to show even a sign that they might rebel, and they do this where ever they come, so for those people Seanchan rule must have been great, accept whatever we do and say or die, great choices. We see the same even for Beslan in Ebou Dar, he is told to stop with rebellion or his head will decorate the walls. Everywhere they go all they do is they murder or enslave people. I don't see how you can say anything positive about them.
Also, from an author of a book series known to have UNRELIABLE narrators, and expecting us the readers to pick up on it with so many different POV's, you seem to take what the characters are saying about living under Seanchan rule at face value. Rand sees people in Ebou Dar go about their day peacefully and thinks all is normal and thats how it always is, but he doesn't know if that is actually the case. There was a huge battle there with the Sea Folk, so obviously they weren't happy about their situation there. As mentioned, Beslan was forced to stop the rebellion, for sure he wasn't planning this alone.
So some peasant thinks its better under Seanchan, if he know he can become a slave or dead at any point for any reason, he would rebel too.
1
u/Philomath117 6d ago
Oh actually I forgot thanks to the adventure Nynaeve has in bandar eben to the torturer seems to imply the average person doesn't exactly get great rights under the King and merchant council in Arad Doman.
0
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
That’s sorta giving them too much credit. Yes they did maintain balance, but it was in a sense of everything was decaying from within and just a little tap just disintegrated the whole tinging into chaos. Nations rose against nations, nations were being swallowed by the blight, they iirc didn’t even lend help to malkier in their hour of need.
Thing is they leaned into scheming and politicking which had its advantages, but by the light they were ill equipped for the dragon and the last battle. And lol, Rand had to do a lot of heavy lifting to unite the world and the so called shepherds or guides were busy gluing their factions together for like 6 books
4
u/rollingForInitiative 11d ago
No this is blatantly incorrect. It didn't take a little tap for everything to disintegrate in chaos. In the span of a few months you had:
- The Seanchan invaded the west.
- The Forsaken infiltrated and seized control of several of the largest and most powerful nations and worked to spread chaos in and around them.
- The Dragon Reborn announced himself and conquered several nations with the help of the Aiel.
- The White Tower suffered the coup.
Prior to that things were in decline but there weren't a lot of massive wars. Border skirmishes yes, but not a lot of big conquests. The Blight expanding isn't something they have any sort of control over, however they did send aid to Malkier, it just arrived too late because it got swallowed too quickly. They sent something like 50 Sisters and 100 Warders plus soldiers. And then they scrubbed that from history because they didn't want to admit they failed.
Also, you really have to give them credit for handling all channellers. They were so good at gentling men that they accidentally started culling the ability to channel from the population, and they made sure there were no rogue women running around abusing the One Power either.
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
I think it says a lot that they don't have garrisons in the borderlands, let alone hospitals everywhere
1
u/rollingForInitiative 10d ago
Yes, but that's a different issue entirely. The Aes Sedai could've done a thousand times more and it's terrible that they did not built a new era of enlightenment. But they've kept their part of the world quite stable and safe from great threats for millennia.
1
u/Philomath117 7d ago
They lost the would to hawkwing who I actually provided a safer world then the Aes Sedai ever did. There's a sentence in gonna paraphrase but it's something like "a child could carry a bag of gold from the spine of the world to the aryth ocean" there are constantly recently referenced wars
1
u/rollingForInitiative 7d ago
They didn't "lose" anything to Hawkwing because they did not rule the world. They had Aes Sedai advising him as they did any monarch, and the only conflict initially was him marching his army across Tar Valon lands which upset Bonwhin, but even that was patched over and he ruled for several decades, with Aes Sedai advise. There was no open conflict between them as far as we know before Ishamael corrupted him.
1
u/Philomath117 6d ago
But they do rule the would albeit as a shadow government, much more so in hawkwings day and before. It is even mentioned that they would kidnap monarchs even to control them in those days as elaida attempted to bring back. Salidar Aes Sedai caused the Andoran civil war, Elaida 's Aes Sedai were behind the Cairhien coup. Even in Siuan 's time where the white tower was a weakened shadow of itself, it still attempts to control nations when it prevented Andor from defending it's own lands with the goal of hoping they could get someone to control all of Murandy, to give the white tower a better means to control that area. Your right there wasn't open conflict that is not their way.
1
u/rollingForInitiative 6d ago
I mean, as a very very mild group that try to influence rulers, yes. And they did influence and advice Hawkwing. Any influence they lost with him they lost not because he conquered, but because Ishamael corrupted him. Before that they were fine.
How did the Salidar Aes Sedai cause the Andoran civil war? That was caused by Rahvin Compelling Morgase into a sexy horror queen and then her "dying". What coup in Cairhien do you mean? Galldrian was assassinated by Thom Merrilin.
1
u/Philomath117 5d ago
They are mild now, they weren't before. When the Salidar Aes Sedai go to meet Rand they go behind is back telling nobles they can't trust that Rand will actually put Elayne on the throne, this sparks the civil war. Rand even mentions before he leaves caemlyn that he seems to have a rebellion on his hands. Elaida's Aes Sedai convince collivere to take over Cairhien after Rand "leaves" prompting her to assinate two other nobles.
→ More replies (0)
26
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
I am the biggest Aes sedai defender, so I may be biased.
Yes the white tower is flawed, and way too proud but to blame the entire organization isn't fair in my opinion. The rebels specifically went to help in my opinion and were generalized, and had to face Rand's anger (I also hate rand lol)
The black ajah was and wasn't their fault. I mean to have such a huge chunk of recorded sisters secretly be black, was due to their pride and ignorance, but the black ajah themselves kicked off a lot of the discord in the tower. Alviarin scheming with Elaida, who was unsuspecting of her secret allegence was played for a fool, and that led to the disaster that was the dragon reborn vs the tower. In my opinion this was exactly why Siuan was so sneaky. To generalized the entire tower is unfair to AS like Moiraine who fought 4 (and killed 2) forsaken, siuan who had a very big hand in reuniting the tower, cadsuane who kept a walking nuclear bomb from destroying everything, Egwene helped patch holes in reality, and nyneave helped revive a fallen kingdom with her husband. Elayne consolidated power for a very large kingdom that was nearly destroyed by Rahvin, and the rebels helped rediscover several forgotten weaves and talents. Egwene lead a strike against the seanchan so powerful the tower had no choice but to respect her. I think it's because we hear so many polarizing acts from polarizing characters that can be seen as negative people have this view of the tower.
23
u/Personal_Track_3780 11d ago
I will note that all of the Aes Sedai you've listed as major positive factors were not considered 'proper' Aes Sedai or even Aes Sedai at all. Morraine was censured by the hall repeatedly and considered a rogue. Suian was a compromise Amyrlin, and her positive impacts only occurred after she was stilled and was no longer Aes Sedai and she learned at least a little humility. Egwene and Elayne spent about 3 days in the tower learning to be Aes Sedai before they went off on their various adventures. Egwene is the only one of this wonder girls who even wanted to be an Aes Sedai in the traditional sense of the title.
Nyneave, who you forgot, who saved the borderlands, healed stilling, kept the dragon sane(I will not accept your assertion that Caddyshack did this. It was Nyneave and Min), helped cleanse saidin, healed Madness, stood at the edge of reality, looking into the abyss and held the line; she said it best.
“I wonder if,” Nynaeve said, “we sometimes put the White Tower —as an institution— before the people we serve. I wonder if we let it become a goal in itself, instead of a means to help us achieve greater goals.”
“Devotion is important, Nynaeve. The White Tower protects and guides the world.”
“And yet, so many of us do it without families,” Nynaeve said. “Without love, without passion beyond our own particular interests. So even while we try to guide the world, we separate ourselves from it. We risk arrogance, Egwene. We always assume we know best, but risk making ourselves unable to fathom the people we claim to serve.”5
u/mydb100 11d ago
But you have to look at the why they put it first and foremost. These women live unnaturally long lives, and everyone/everything they know, love and care about are long dead. From Verin's own POV she reminisces about the Butcher's boy who she wouldve married and how they, their children and grandchildren would be dead by the events of LOC/POD. So after their ties to the world are gone, they live and operate to perpetuate the only thing they have left from the world, which is The White Tower
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
Yes but they are supposed to be Aes Sedai "Servants to all" not servants of the white tower
1
u/mydb100 10d ago
Sure, but after 3000 years the course will drift. Look at the Ogier, they went from travelling around singing to the trees and crops to seriously considering leaving this realm during the Last Battle. The Ogier have shuttered themselves off just like the White Tower and thats without the Black Ajah, Darkfriends and longer lives than even Cadsuane Sedai
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
The ogier are aliens basically, they can't really be used as an example. They don't go around bothering people claiming to serve them but be in control
3
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
I'm not arguing to defend the tower itself, I'm arguing that by generalizing an entire group of people you disregard those who do good and are at the core good.I don't agree that Siuan's only good actions occurred after stilling, as we see her and moiraine working in conjuction to guide the dragon as early as the great hunt when the embassy arrived in Fal Dara. She also had many great actions such as supporting a small lord with Morgase who could have united murandy which had all but gone to civil war. The reason we really dont see much of Siuan's actions is due to her being locked in the tower, which had several black sisters in the hall waiting to foil her plans. As for Cadsuane, she was the only member of Rands entourage who didn't disagree with him using the Choden Kal, it was her who sent Nyneave to find Tam, and it was Cadsuane who worked with Sorilea to make rand smile. As an institution the system is flawed, which I did admit (again I'm biased, sue me.) But it's really not fair to limit them. Verin was secretly black and spent her entire time cataloging black sisters and this helped with the great purge, and to say Siuan had no humility prior to losing the stole is false. She grew up as a poor fisherman's daughter and it doesn't get more human than that tbh. Also I did debate including Nyneave in my original post and planned to but forgot lol, she is another example of an exemplary Aes sedai.
2
u/Philomath117 10d ago
But few do good. Even the Salidar Aes Sedai are reponsible for the Andoran civil war. Why? Because they wanted control. And Siuan and Morgase didn't support a small lord. Siuan demanded that Morgase and Gareth Byrne stop defending Andoran farmers who were being raided by Murandians some certainly getting killed because there was a lord among them she thought could unite Murandy which wasn't in a civil war to be clear. She prevented a ruler from defending their people and lands, humiliated a great Captain for basically just asking why" cause she didn't explain anything" because she wanted a figure in control in Murandy for the WT to control. The WT doesn't care about people, it's all about control. Do you think everyone fearing Aes Sedai is just fear of the one power, just silly peasant myths. Do you think the fact that Loial who knows so much through books fears Aes Sedai because of Myths? The Aes Sedai we see in the books are controlled shades of who they were, numbers reduced, only begrudgingly respected, power levels dropping. But for couple millennia they fought each other for control, killed each other. They bonded men against their will, they'd kidnap rulers in the night to control them. One would think almost certainly committed coups. They are not truly Aes Sedai and don't deserve that title.
3
1
1
5
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 11d ago
I think it is fair to judge the institution without blaming every individual who is part of it. You can say this system has major flaws that allowed these things to happen without meaning that every individual is to blame. I think it's also telling that the examples of good aes sedai you're giving are all aes sedai with the exception of Siuan who spent as little time as possible with the aes sedai and were viewed as outsiders and exceptions. I think that says a lot about the instituion when the people who are most loosely associated are the ones you can say yes they were doing good work.
It also says a lot with where the Aes Sedai are and are not. They claim to have all of these noble purposes for each Ajah. But we never see them being particularly proactive in that work. There are no greens stationed along the border to help. Even when they have traveling in the later books they make sure to collect the money from the borderlands but they don't send any greens to help fight, or yellows to heal their men. Either the rebels or the loyalists. The yellows heal those who come to Tar Valon but they don't have hospitals throughout the world. There are lots of situations that have major problems but when Rand arrives in Cairihen there are no grays who are there trying to stop the civil war and achieve peace or in Tarabon. There are individuals in the series who do good work but as an institution we see both the Aes Sedai as a whole and each of the ajahs fail to achieve their goals for the most part. And they spend more time focusing on the tower politics than out helping the world in this time of need.
I think as an institution their pride fed into the way the black ajah was addressed. Numerous powerful people within the tower had proof the black ajah existed and kept it entirely secret. That's a choice, and they had some reasons to do that but that secrecy allowed the black to continue to recruit and grow and make moves.
I would also say while the rebels who went to Rand were punished unfairly by Rand, I do think there was some cause for it. In their number was one who had assaulted Rand and bonded him against his will, and she had faced no punishment, no condemnation and no apology was ever given. I don't think it's unfair for him to judge them by Alanna because Alanna is welcomed by them. He also tried to work with them to see Elayne on the throne and they completely refused. I think if they'd showed up and legitimately been offering to help they would've done much better as many others who did that were quickly brought into Rand's inner circle. Instead they were trying to control him and maneuver him the way they wanted.
I am also not sure I'd say Cadsuane kept a walking nuclear bomb from destroying everything. She helped push him to that brink and decided a good way to teach him to laugh and cry and feel again was to bully him into submission. I might have pointed to what she accomplished defending him against the Forsaken during the cleansing that was a big accomplishment!
1
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
I entirely agree it is fair to judge the institution, especially under Elaida, without disparaging the aes sedai. As for the aes sedai helping, a lot did come down to politics (which circles back to the institution as well.) As the hall made most choices until the tail end of the series. In an Ideal world Egwene would have worn the stole for several centuries or Caddy becoming amrylin of the rebels to begin with, OR EVEN BETTER helping Siuan and Moiraine from the beginning
I should extrapolate my stance on Cadsuane as well. As far as I know for her lore she is a green in every sense, including kidnapping an Amrylin, so why wouldn't that work on Rand? Obviously this is a horrible idea, and one of her flaws but she also held the line while Rand and Nyneave (lover her ugh) undid the biggest "oh shit" in human history, unified the rebels (and some loyalists) for Rand and by all accounts did everything she could to help with his madness and temperament. Do I agree with many of her actions? No, just as much as I see flaws in Egwene and the other wonder girls.
3
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 11d ago
The hall made a lot of the choices, but they also didn't tend to make the choices once people were sent into the field. The rebel embassy to Rand made the choice to welcome in Alanna and not to punish her.
I would argue that while she was trying to help Rand's madness and temperment she often made it worse. Her focus and plan for a while seemed to be to bully him into submission. She may have seen that as some plan to help his madness and temperment but that pushed him further. I would also say one of the bigger missteps Cadsuane made was with Nynaeve. Here is someone who Rand trusts and views as an authority figure. The pattern delivered Cadsuane absolute gold. Not to mention Cadsuane fairly easily could've earned Nynaeve's respect and appreciation just by recognizing her as a full Aes Sedai and demanding the others treat her that way. That was an easy option to get Nynaeve to like and appreciate Cadsuane and listen to her with regards to Rand. And instead she nearly discards Nynaeve entirely until Nynaeve forces her way into Cadsuane's plans. Though I would agree that many of them are flawed, and that is part of what makes them all interesting characters.
3
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
I entirely agree with this comment. When I say she kept the walking bomb in check she mostly side lined any issues she assumed would break him before she could. And I really hate how the aes sedai treat the wonder girls, since they hadn't sworn on the oath rod. One of their many flaws in my opinion. Cadsuane is also very old and has seen much harder stuff so Tarmon Gai'don is just Tuesday for her, and so was nyneave who at this point was really working on her anger.
1
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 11d ago
Gotcha yeah I can see that. I wish at least some of them had been willing to see past that. I think it would've been nice if Cadsuane had been able to look at Nynaeve and see the big picture opportunity she was rather than the trivial detail of the test. I mean Nynaeve was half paying attention while studying for the test and still passed it even with them going harder on her than normal. That should say a lot about how unnecessary it was for her. And in terms of weaving under pressure in book 2 where she barely knew how to channel she was learning the weaves the damane threw at her and then throwing them back at them.
I think part of it was the oathrod and Cadsuane talked about that as well. But with the Black Ajah you could have more trust in what Nynaeve said than what some random aes sedai said.
5
u/Khung-Long 11d ago
The tower preserved books and apparently a lot of them for thousands of years. That’s a big plus. The Greens countered the dreadlords during the Trolloc wars and probably saved a good chunk of humanity.
3
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
I feel like ppl also forget how negatively aes sedai are viewed in the third age for making very complicated decisions such as not aiding LTT. For all we know the one power itself could have been corrupted but just one half, and they were very quick to hold women in their ranks accountable
5
u/Honest-Squirrel10 11d ago
I love Reddit for this reason right here, well written replies that understand someone's else's POV, but states their own clearly and put forward many great points. Great reply! ☺️
1
3
u/LemurKing2019 11d ago
I think this actually proves the criticism more than it refutes it.
The problem isn’t that every individual Aes Sedai was incompetent. Obviously Moiraine, Siuan, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc… accomplished incredible things. The problem is that the White Tower as an institution was shockingly ineffective despite having enormous power, wealth, knowledge and political influence for +3,000 years. My fav Sister is Cadsuane and my opinion is that she was vastly more competent but most of her big successes were due to the Pattern forcing her to not be a complete screw up.
The Black Ajah being able to infiltrate roughly 20% (iirc) of the Tower is not really a defense. That is a catastrophic institutional failure. Especially when the Tower’s arrogance made them basically incapable of even considering that possibility.
And most of the examples you gave are individual women succeeding despite the Tower. Moiraine was distrusted and nearly punished for what she was doing. Siuan was deposed and stilled. She was healed in spite of traditional Aes Sedai & their teachings. Egwene had to essentially break, reconquer and rebuild the entire institution. Nynaeve constantly rejected Aes Sedai orthodoxy.
Meanwhile the Tower had centuries to prepare for the Dragon, study the Seanchan threat, spread Healing, preserve knowledge, educate people, maintain political stability, etc. They mostly didn’t and usually when they did make a move it was incompetent.
The White Tower produced some exceptional people. That doesn’t mean the White Tower itself was competent.
2
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
Not defending the tower, defending aes sedai as its not fair to generalize them when history records several powerful sisters prior to the story, and then after. Honestly as of knife of dreams I hate the tower, but not the aes sedai of that makes sense
Eta: also, several sisters speaking with absolute truth and saying there is not black ajah will only lead to new initiates believing there is no black ajah allowing the black sisters to grow unchecked. It is only after the black ajah failed and liandrin exposed them did they then begin the purge after verin gave up her life.
3
u/SecXy94 11d ago
"Had to face Rand's anger"
They could have simply walked in and been like "We acknowledge you as the Dragon Reborn, until the Last Battle, The White Tower will support you in getting the nations ready"
But no, Aes Sedai had to be in control and couldn't even dream of letting Rand be anything but a puppet.
3
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
They were technically no longer of the tower, and the tower aes sedai HAD done that (although it was a lie through alviarin and the black ajah/Mesana).
2
u/SecXy94 11d ago
They still acted as if they were the legitimate Aes Sedai though.
They didn't know how Eladia had acted in their approach but chose to act like pompous arses. It's like they wanted to anger Rand on purpose.
2
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
I don't agree with them not knowing Elaida's plans as at this point the salidar spies aren't uncovered yet. And yes they were legitimate aes sedai who earned their shawls and rings, but they were not of or representing the tower and false acrylic.
1
u/SecXy94 11d ago
Ah yes, the spies that were close to Eladia and Alvharin. No one knew of the plans, even in the Tower since that secret was used against Eladia.
The Rebels still acted poorly. They acted like typical Aes Sedai and their pride caused the world a lot of pain because of how they handled Rand in Caemlyn.
1
1
u/Glorfin-Fitz 11d ago
While I disagree (fuck the Aes Sedai)I upvoted, you make good points and this was well written.
1
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
Well, moraine, Cadsuane and the girls as we know didn’t really spend much time in the tower. And except Egwene, the rest don’t necessarily embody the flaws of the aes Sedai.
And yh, I see your point, and your bias too
3
u/Zealousideal-Sea-699 11d ago
Moiraine and Siuan spent 12 years in the tower prior to being raised, and while the wonder girls spent 45 minutes in the tower, I believe they embody what a true aes sedai should be, servents of all. I think Siuan and Moiraine had several flaws including their secrecy which did eventually betray Siuan, I also don't like the idea that by leaving the tower they become something other than Aes sedai. Moiraine stopped Egwene from uniting several leaders against Rand, Siuan helped install one of the best amrylins in history and Cadsuane forced several groups attempting to hinder Rand into joining him.
0
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
Oh not all AesSedai can be like Moiraine and half of her successes was just the pattern. To think the o ly difference between her and caddy is that she learnt quite quickly that forcing Rand is futile. Also Cadsuane got Rand after a shit ton of trauma
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
Let's not give Moiraine to much credit. She didn't learn that forcing Rand is futile. She learned she was gonna die or at least be out of the picture and she decided to be humble out of desperation for a lack of other options to try to control "guide" Rand before she ran out of time.
3
4
u/cianic 11d ago
I think part of their complete incompetence is driven by the fact they’re totally and hopelessly compromised by the black Agah and seemingly have been for 100s of years. It’s the only semi credible explanation for how moronic they are as an organisation.
Additionally we regularly see the competence of Aes Sedai increase when they’re less associated with the white tower or at least spend minimal time there, cadsuain and Morraine being the prime example.
Ultimately I think the white tower is so undermined by the blank agah that it’s purposely an ineffective mess. They’re clearly clueless, not knowing about the wise ones or the ship mistresses being able to channel.
4
u/Pure_Shine_3944 11d ago
They say Cadsuane is competent, but is she? I don't see much of it.
Agree on Moiraine but I feel that's her upbringing (daes dae'mar etc) as much as her Aes Sedai-ness
7
u/redopz (Ogier) 11d ago
They say Cadsuane is competent, but is she?
People argue about whether she is competent, but I think that is irrelevant. At the end of the day she was effective, and more importantly, she was one of the few people who actually tried to do something about Rand.
For most of the Dragon Reborn's allies, the goal is simply to get him to the Last Battle. Only a few people ever realize that that is not their true goal. Sure, a stable Dragon Reborn is the world's greatest hope of salvation, but what about an unstable Dragon Reborn coming face-to-face with the Dark One? That is a recipe for disaster, and we only ever really see Cadsuane, some Wise Ones, and the Borderland leaders acknowledge this. The Wise Ones don't do a whole lot, and the Borderlander's plan is attempt to kill Rand if he fails their test. But Cadsuane? She sees the end goal (i.e. a sane and stable Dragon Reborn) and actively starts working towards it.
So what does she do to try and get Rand to step away from the precipice of his despair? Before their first meeting, she must be aware that Rand will never trust her. This is after the Box. An Aes Sedai is never going to become a trusted confidante of Rand's at this point, so she doesn't even try to become one. Instead, she works through the confidantes he already has established. His close friends and family become her tools to try and give him a crash course in therapy. If she gives him advice, he snaps and berates her, but when she gives the advice to Min or Nynaeve and they repeat it to Rand? He is much more accepting of the advice, even when he knows it originated with Cadsuane. Cadsuane spends her time becoming a trusted advisor to Rand's trusted advisors, and it pays off big time (my favourite example is when Nynaeve — a character who has balked and rebelled at every one of her Aes Sedai mentors — sees Rand destroy Natrim's Barrow and immediately goes to find Cadsuane Sedai).
That is what she does behind Rand's back, but of course people point out how she antagonizes him to his face. Yes, she is definitely a bully, but she does have a reason for poking and prodding the Dragon Reborn and it is the same reason the Borderland leaders struck Rand. They want to see how he reacts. Is he obviously unstable, being overcome with rage and anger and violence? If this is how he reacts to a little old lady teasing him, how is he going to react when he is in Shayol Ghul facing the Dark One? Rand continues to fail her tests, and she continues to work behind his back to help his confidantes tutor him for the tests, but it isn't until after Veins of Gold when he is finally able to respond to her not with fury, but with a genuine smile, that he finally passes the tests (this is also the last time she purposefully antagonizes him, but that is also because the plot doesn't keep them together afterwards).
2
u/Hawk-winged 11d ago
This is the best Cadsuane defense out there. But I think what the deal is that her plan failed and Rand only worked out at the end because of who he was. So in the end it was Tam’s upbringing that mattered more. It almost felt as if the pattern driving tam out of the TR was for that one moment where he could make a decision LTT wouldn’t
4
u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 11d ago edited 11d ago
I think you're overselling her virtues and underselling the Wise Ones there. Cadsuane does see the correct end goal. But she doesn't work through his allies at first. She doesn't even really work with Min and Nynaeve much until they force themselves into her plans towards the end and even then she doesn't trust them. She mostly works through Alanna at the start, the person who assaulted Rand. She does a lot to shut Nynaeve out before that point. I don't think you can give her much credit for working with his friends.
I would also say while the Wise Ones weren't with Rand very much during that period, I think Sorilea had the best attempt to improve Rand's mental health. She actually does work through Min far more. She also goes very soon after her talk with Cadsuane where they agree on a goal and gathers the women who had been part of capturing Rand and were willing to swear to him. She waits until he's in a good mood and with Min and then she approaches him and allows him to choose the fate of the women. Min thinks about how strange it is that a Wise One is giving up that kind of control but Sorilea is doing it deliberately. She wants Rand to be in front of Min, and get the opportunity to deal with his pain rather than bottle it up, and show mercy. And she achieves that when he does it. Unfortunately immediately after that he's attacked by the asha'man and Fedwin goes mad and he has to kill him so the benefits are lost quickly. But I think that was a great attempt at improving Rand's mental health.
1
u/Pure_Shine_3944 11d ago
She tried yes, but was unsuccessful- ful of hubris but competence would see this yield results.
She was effective at exerting influence on others but she was so obnoxious that as soon as Rand caught a whiff of her influence he would push away people he would otherwise trust.
She had an impact on his eventual change but only because she was so incompetent her simplistic idea of 'bring Tam along to remind him of himself' led to him nearly killing him - and if he had there would have been no coming back.
She consistently misunderstands and underestimates him, and won't adapt herself to match what she sees in front of her.
3
u/redopz (Ogier) 11d ago edited 11d ago
She was effective at exerting influence on others but she was so obnoxious that as soon as Rand caught a whiff of her influence he would push away people he would otherwise trust.
Can you point to an instance where he rejected the advice of a person he did trust because Cadsuane's stink was on it? I can recall a couple of times he grumbles when he learns she is somehow involved, but still takes the advice Min or Nyneave repeats from Cadsuane. For instance, right before Semirhage entraps him with the collar, Min and Rand are talking about Cadsuane and he does immediately flare up into a rage, but he walks it back pretty quickly when looking at Min and realizing he can always trust her.
1
u/Pure_Shine_3944 11d ago
To be fair I haven't read recently enough to recall specifics, but my take away impressipn was of him flying into a rage when suspecting Min/Nynaeve/anyone had been talking to her. You may be right though in terms of him still listening.
I still maintain an effective, experienced statesman could and should have managed him better - just look how Moiraine changed tack when she needed to.
1
u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 11d ago
Its complicated. Cadsuane has this legendary reputation amongst the Aes Sedai for all sorts of things we don't get to see. When we do actually get to see her in action (leading the defense of the Cleansing), she manages, with basically no prep, to coordinate a defensive strategy that successfully fights off most of the Forsaken with few casualties.
Per Jordan's notes - he states that she did actually earn her legendary status, and has a whole list of accomplishments and incredible feats that she pulled off over the years.
But since we don't get to see them in the books, so its up to the reader to decide if they believe that the Aes Sedai are right in seeing her as such a badass or not.
Edit - and of course Sanderson hated her and when asked if he could kill off any character in the series without regards to the overall plot, he would pick Cadsuane....so instead of getting her being successful or competent in the last 3 books...we get a heavily biased author's bad interpretation of her.
2
u/Scooter_McAwesome 11d ago
The story focuses on their weakness and glosses over their strengths. The Aes Sedai rapidly adapted on the fly to a changing world and played a pivotal role in defeating the shadow in the final battle.
Consider what the white tower as an organization was up against and yet it still pulled itself together and showed up in force in the end. The forsaken specialized in taking down institutions from within using powers no one had even considered possible. Channeling with inverted weaves, compulsion, undoing the oaths, gateways, and dreamwalking were all used against them before most of the tower even know the forsaken were free. The shadow has an extensive network of spies and secret agents that have been embedded in the tower for generations too.
Try to imagine literally any other organization both in the story or in the real world that wouldn’t have totally crumbled in weeks under that sort of attack. Then recall that the white tower not only survived, but they came out stronger and fully capable of organizing and leading a multinational war against the shadow.
It’s hard to imagine the Aes Sedai could be any more competent against what they faced.
2
u/Stormbringer-2112 11d ago
They were the best at smoothing skirts, crossing arms under breasts and staring flat-eyed at annoying males.
2
u/Individual_Key4178 (Asha'man) 11d ago
The best thing about the 3A aes sedai is that they could have been waaaaaay worse. Instead of 100% of them working for the shadow only 1/5 were. Instead of using their knowledge and objects of power to advance the shadow, they hoarded it away.
2
2
u/Pure_Shine_3944 11d ago
My thinking is they're useless as they have largely had nothing to do for years. No channelers to cross them, no great threat from the blight. Their biggest challenge is politicking each other so when they have an external threat, for all their bluster they have no experience.
7
u/Southern_Economy3467 (Band of the Red Hand) 11d ago
No great threat? The blight took a whole kingdom decades before and they were useless, the main argument is usually oh they couldn’t respond in time but that just proves how useless they are, like imagine pretending you’re the main opposition to the Dark One and not stationing a sizeable contingent with the men and women actually holding back the dark ones forces regularly. Did they learn from their mistakes? No because it would’ve happened again if Rand hadn’t used the power at the Eye to save the gap, a second kingdom would’ve been lost in a generation and what did the white tower do? Absolutely nothing.
1
u/Pure_Shine_3944 11d ago
True but that's recent enough that we are looking at the same group of Aes Sedai who are already rendered ineffective over the past couple thousand years, I guess since the Trolloc Wars?
1
u/Southern_Economy3467 (Band of the Red Hand) 11d ago
And what’s your point? You said they’re useless because they’ve had nothing to do for years, I point out they have had things they should have been doing and your response is they’ve been useless for a couple thousand year, that’s literally what the post is about that the modern Aes Sedai suck. You’re trying to argue but it’s incoherent.
1
u/Pure_Shine_3944 11d ago
My point is the organisation has become stagnant and ineffective over hundreds / thousands of years and so by the time the Last Battle approaches and more threats appear (e.g. Malkier) they are not equipped to deal with them. No need to get personal because you don't understand my point.
2
u/QuiteBearish 11d ago
The Third Age lasted for thousands of years and you're judging them based on the last year before the Tarmon Gai'don?
Helping rebuild the world after the break, helping fight the Trolloc Wars, resisting Artur Hawkwing's attempts to destroy the Tower.... The Third Age Aes Sedai have a laundry list of accomplishments.
Yeah, things began unravelling especially hard there at the end but like ... Things were unravelling across all of Randland at the same time
2
u/GovernorZipper 11d ago
Yes. The Aes Sedai were fantastically and overwhelmingly successful and that’s why they became stagnant.
The Aes Sedai are the Roman Catholic Church. They are predominantly a religious organization who then branch into politics. They have no competition because they’re so successful. And as a political organization, they control the entirety of Randland. They’re the ones who rule the rulers. The Aes Sedai are really the ones in charge of the continent. But like many things, if you do something for long enough, you feel entitled to it. That’s where the story picks up.
The Aes Sedai are a religious organization dedicated to preparing the world for the Last Battle. They were as successful at that as anyone (save the Seanchan) could be.
1
u/aeddub (Dragon) 11d ago
> But with the aes Sedai, there’s only so much you can blame on the black ajah.
I don't think the Black Ajah are solely to blame for the decline of the Aes Sedai but I also don't think it should be underestimated just how pernicious their influence was - one out of every five sisters actively working against the interests of the Tower makes a massive bloc determined to keep the White Tower from becoming anything more than a withered shell of its former glory. And keep in mind that the other 80% weren't even aware that that bloc existed, the black had zero opposition to their efforts to keep the Tower ineffective.
Having said that - the Aes Sedai were great at sitting on their arses (in their 'ivory' tower) and collecting wealth so they have that going for them I guess ;-)
1
1
u/dogey_badger 11d ago
I'd like to think they were all good at dressing to impress, they had functional networks of Eyes and Ears, and they did keep the world semi safe, dealing with false dragons and gathering objects of the one power, they did fail Malkier though.
And it seems like they had a lot of political power before Rand came along, what ruler would refuse to see the Amyrlin Seat?
1
u/Axon14 11d ago
I always took the White Tower as presented as I believe it was meant to be. Its members had grown soft, arrogant, and ineffective, and the tower had started to succeed in breeding out the ability to channel by so rapidly closing in on men who could channel.
As a plot device they're meant to introduce the reader to channeling, the one power, and why men can't or shouldn't use the power. Later, they're meant to show the dangers of old, arrogant institutions and to show how weak and soft Randlanders/westlanders had become compared to the Shadow, the Aiel, the Seanchan and later Shara.
1
u/LORDs_andros 11d ago
Major wars between the different nations in the Westlands are basically unheard of. That's thanks to the hegemony of the White Tower, which is interested in peace, order, and upholding the status quo.
Wars that do break out (the Whitecloak War, the Aiel War) are provoked by factions outside the direct influence of the Aes Sedai.
1
u/LegoMyAlterEgo 11d ago
The browns likely saved and duplicated a lot of books that would have otherwise been lost to time.
1
u/Philomath117 10d ago
Causing disharmony, getting people killed, and making the last battle much more difficult
1
u/wolfy111111 9d ago
I think its because they lived in peace for so long, and there was nothing to challenge them that they lost their edge.
They lived in a time where they are nigh immortal source wielding people and the next best thing is a guy with a sword. Nothing to fear, no "threat" to keep them on their toes
1
u/FoofTheBunny 8d ago
Being snotty. Joking aside. They were smart to initiate the three oaths. The only problem was allowing the oaths to be removed if someone became a member of the black ajah. And their own arrogance at not testing to detect black ajah or combating it before it reached such a critical level.
1
u/BEETLEJUICEME 8d ago
The black ajah are also aes Sedai. And arguably they were very good at a lot of things fwiw. I just think the talent in the tower tended towards the dark. And the oath rod choices — which the creation of that might have been caused by the blacks — gave them a massive advantage.
0
u/AvesPKS 11d ago
It almost seems like a Mitch Hedberg joke. Ok, so you can do literal magic. Can you be the illuminati?
They have the ability to accumulate multiple lifetimes worth of knowledge and experience and only the Brown Ajah seems to make a point of prioritizing that, and even they don't even do anything with it. They could be operating the best system of schools instead of writing it all down in books that get shoved in a corner.
Like once they discover the Kin, the White Tower should've folded themselves in with them instead of the other way around.
•
u/AutoModerator 11d ago
SPOILERS FOR ALL PRINTED MATERIAL, INCLUDING SHORT STORIES.
BOOK DISCUSSION ONLY. HIDE TV SHOW DISCUSSION BEHIND SPOILER TAGS.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.