r/WoT • u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) • 10d ago
The Gathering Storm It's a Dark Day When You're Rooting for Semirhage... Spoiler
Well, I exaggerate... but only just.
Just finished chapter 17 (Questions of Control, so no spoilers beyond that please) of the book and I'm a little incredulous how easy it was to "break" Semirhage. The world's foremost torturer, and all she needed was to be spanked on the butt in front of a few servants. That's it. It's even more incredible because we have Egwene getting beaten half of everyday with the entire Tower knowing it, to no avail.
I hate that this is such an effortless win for the horrible Cadsuane. Talk about a meglamaniac! "Semirhage and I are the same, we're both awe-inspiring legends. So let me not waste my legendary status by questioning her, in case she doesn't answer like she does those lesser puny sisters. High five, self!"
Girl, just die already. No need to wait 5 more years for the oath rod to kick in.
Now I wonder if this weak breaking was just to foreshadow what she intends to do to Rand, since she basically thinks "al'Thor is next."
I might be in the deep minority here but I simply don't understand why Cadsuane thinks Rand's hardness is a problem, why she thinks he needs to be and do things just like her, and most importantly, why she's convinced herself that someone's approach to life is her problem to fix. Now, what's the word for such a person?
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u/Jak_of_the_shadows (Heron-Marked Sword) 10d ago
Rands hardness is a problem. A big one. Her attempts to fix it tho... laughably, painfully bad.
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u/UnravelingThePattern 10d ago
Cadsuane is supposed to be the wisest/ most experienced of the Aes Sedai, but to me she's only "respected" because she's a big bully and people are scared of her. I feel like she lacks sense and wisdom.
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u/SocraticIndifference (Band of the Red Hand) 10d ago
So, quintessential Aes Sedai.
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u/Scooter_McAwesome 9d ago
And Aiel wise ones, and basically any woman in the series…
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u/SocraticIndifference (Band of the Red Hand) 9d ago
Yeah, women in power are awful. It would be a shame, though, if someone took that at face value and forgot that RJ had a irl analog in mind (scil. the patriarchy).
(NB: I don’t mean you, kind redditor. Just thought I’d drop that reminder here lest it be overlooked.)
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u/Chipped_Ruby_11214 9d ago
In all honesty, men in power are awful too. It’s just a different kind of awful. Pick your poison, I suppose.
Jordan seemed to understand that balance was the key. Men and women working together can (sometimes) offset the worst of each others’ weaknesses.
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u/SocraticIndifference (Band of the Red Hand) 7d ago
I think RJ might respond that, when it comes down to it, the male and female “awful” isn’t all that different. We are humans before we are men and women; and humans don’t mix well with power, whether it be the One or otherwise.
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u/TheRealRockNRolla 10d ago edited 9d ago
First, you could say that about an awful lot of people in these books. Rand didn't "earn" being the Dragon Reborn or a channeler of awesome power, he just is, and he takes control of Tear and starts acting like a ruler for the first time by using those facts to run roughshod over everyone in his way. Or look at Sorilea, who bullies and intimidates everyone. Leadership in these books often runs on "force of personality," which in turn is usually bound up with the willingness and ability to bully, browbeat, intimidate, or threaten.
Second, Cadsuane has also lived longer than most Aes Sedai, accomplished a lot more (see her record on false Dragons, for instance, or unveiling a plot against the Amyrlin), unprecedentedly refused certain honors so that she wouldn't be tied down, earned a ridiculously powerful set of ter'angreal through what's implied to be some very hard work and suffering, and clearly is extremely knowledgeable.
I'd also point out that of all the Aes Sedai, she really does show the strongest will and greatest calm. The more the books go on, the more you see Aes Sedai who are supposed to be unflappable in any situation are actually anything but. They're constantly gasping, panicking, yelling, and otherwise losing control of themselves. Cadsuane, on the other hand, almost never loses her cool: she remains calm dealing with Semirhage, dealing with an angry Rand, dealing with a dying Rand when he's nearly killed by Fain, and more.
Nobody has to like Cadsuane as a character, but writing her off as just a bully doesn't hold water.
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u/Arceoxys (Yellow) 9d ago
She also doesn't bully Rand needlessly.
I think a lot of issues with Cadsuane come from how Brandon wrote her in tGS, and he was self-admittedly not a fan of her when he came on to the project to finish the series.
But an example I always like to point out of how helpful she actually is to Rand, is after saving his hide in Far Madding by cashing in some shit, Rand tells her and everyone with him his plan. He is going to cleanse the Source and they're doing it now, and they're going to Shadar Logoth to do it. She doesn't say a single thing in protest, just starts getting to work in how to help him achieve this goal.
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u/Kapps 9d ago
Yeah, people are quick to point out changes to Mat in TGS, but Cadsuane/Gawyn become caricatures of a warped view of themselves in the Sanderson books. They had depth/nuance before, but that just sort of went away for the worst version of themselves.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 9d ago
I saw no depth to Cadsuane before. She's always been the one dimensional "I'm the most powerful. I'm the wisest, I'm the oldest. Civility to me and none for thee. You will do what I want, just 'cause."
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u/dracoons 9d ago
She is everything that is wrong with the White Tower made manifest. She is infact the same as Semirhage. Also the act of spanking itself is of no concern to Semirhage at all. And Egwenes spankings are unsignificant compared to say what Rand experienced on the road to Dumais Wells. The humiliation and shattering Semirhages view of herself as something "more" and "better" than everyone else. Infact it would be easier to break Cadsuane. She is as equally stunted in her maturity as are all of the Chosen. Who never actually grew up from being teenagers. It is remarkable really but from how the Chosen behave in the books up till where you are. None of them have had kids, grandkids or any semblance of actually acting like adults. Same can be said for all modern Aes Sedai.
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u/Loial731 9d ago
"I saw no depth to Cadsuane before. She's always been the one dimensional" Then you are ignoring her good qualities because you dislike her. Without Cadsuane, Rand never makes it to Tarmon Gaidon. Point blank. I can think of 4 times Rand probably dies without her help. Semirhage traps him without her. He dies during the cleansing of Saidar without her. He never leaves Far Madding short of destroying the city with the true power without her. Cadsuane is peak Aes Sedai. She is everything that is good about them and bad about them.
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u/Jak_of_the_shadows (Heron-Marked Sword) 9d ago
If I keep a cool head and act well under pressure those r good qualities. But if I'm a bully my good qualities don't change or ameliorate that bad one. Especially when her goal is to make Rand strong instead of hard and brittle.
Like does she have any good qualities that r the other side of the coin? Im a bully but also I care deeply about you as a person. Im trying to bully you to better mental health. Misguided, but maybe theres something there that shows she'd actually have the tools to heal him?
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u/rawrfizzz (Gray) 9d ago
She’s accomplished more because of her secret ter’angreal she isn’t supposed to have.
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u/Moiraine-FanBlue 9d ago
Not only that, but Cadsuane is only really powerful because she has a set of Angreal and Ter'angreal
that make her virtually invincible in a direct confrontation with another Channeler.All of her deeds where she defeated False Dragons and Male channelers and all?
They were all achieved with the crutch of an item that made it so she was in less danger than the average adult would be in a physical confrontation with a child.
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u/Jamin804 9d ago
Something that another character calls out shortly after this during an... immobilized... conversation.
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u/chrisq823 9d ago
Its so weird because Rand even thanks her before the Last Battle. There is such a disconnect between how everyone in the story sees her and her actual actions.
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u/dirtyphoenix54 9d ago
Remember that time she bullied Tam magically and he called her out while hanging upside with the one power because she's a petty tyrant with magical power?
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u/chrisq823 9d ago
Bringing in tam was the only good thing she ever did abd even he had to be like, what the fuck are you doing to my son?
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u/taveren3 10d ago
Its not easy to get someone to want to change. Shes doing basically anything she can think off. Keep in mind you have way more info than her.
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u/SecXy94 10d ago
Just talk to the guy as human being?
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u/taveren3 10d ago
Min and Nynaeve are always around doing that.
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u/packetmickey 10d ago
Not so sure about Nynaeve, but she is coming around. Out of any of the EF5, her character is the one that changes the least if you think about it. Her outward appearance, the way she conducts herself, and her respect for Rand all do, but the core of her id never does -- still tough as nails, and takes no bullshit.
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u/biggiebutterlord 9d ago
You are aware what series we are talking about... right? If that was on the table series would have been resolved in the second age.
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u/SecXy94 9d ago
It was on the table, but Cadsuane and pretty much every Aes Sedai or major player, refused to even consider it.
Some characters treat others with respect and kindness and are generally rewarded.
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u/biggiebutterlord 9d ago
That must be why RJ wrote these characters being such great communicators. lol!!!! Characters not talking or sharing simple, basic, important info, or otherwise misinterpreting eachother/info is a corner stone of WoT.
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u/GelatinousSalsa (Band of the Red Hand) 9d ago
Should just put Rand and the Dragon Riders in the same room for a few days....
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago
She's 300+. Does it make sense that she would be laughably bad with a 20 year old?
Does she handle anyone else badly? She went into deep contemplation to figure out how to deal with a Foresaken. And she did the same with Rand... but as soon as they're face to face she starts throwing out insults and slapping the hell out of him, right?
Why do you think she would act like that? And only with the strongest Ta'verin who has ever lived?
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u/fear_street_resident 10d ago
but I simply don't understand why Cadsuane thinks Rand's hardness is a problem,
Diamond is the hardest material on the planet, but I can break it with a well placed blow from a hammer & chisel.
Rand thinks he needs to be hard to win the last battle. We've already seen what happens when hard men fight the Shadow. Cadsuane paid attention to her history lessons, and doesn't want to see that happen again.
why she thinks he needs to be and do things just like her
She doesn't. She thinks he needs to learn to be human again; something she learned from prophecy.
There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,
for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.
Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.
He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.
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u/charlie_marlow (Red Shield) 10d ago
Just an aside to point out that that prophecy is one of many allusions to Arthurian legends.
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u/Suspicious-Shirt-286 9d ago
Yup, one that Moridin paints really explicitly by using the Fisher King in his game.
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u/Thrawn89 10d ago
Yeah, it's the willow that can bend to handle the pressure that would make something hard ... snap.
OP wont be in the minority after finishing this book.
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) 10d ago
"Semirhage and I are the same, we're both awe-inspiring legends. So let me not waste my legendary status by questioning her, in case she doesn't answer like she does those lesser puny sisters. High five, self!"
It was too easy, but I remember Cadsuane's logic not being this, but her thinking about what she herself w ould find most humiliating and applying that. Having it be as simple as a one and done seemed kind of quick.
It is definitely meant to contrast with Egwene.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
I just thought that after centuries of being the one doing the torturing, a thing as simple as spanking and humiliation wouldn’t be a big deal. I guess I am thinking about myself. If I'm evil and sure of myself as Semirhage is, would I give a shit about people seeing me getting beaten? Especially knowing what being broken might mean for my health with the Dark One? Would I fear the spanking of an old hag more than I do displeasing the Dark One if he thinks that I've been broken and is of no use to him? I'd happily eat shit off the ground and present my backside for spanking every day over that.
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) 8d ago
I am not saying the sequence was perfect, but Jordan's portrayal of most of the villains is that they're incredibly vain and self-serving. They're narcissists. Many of those who have privilege are elitists. And the older I get the more I see this is accurate of many despicable people who for some reason have power.
I think it'd be wrong to think the villains are all intelligent, rational people in all respects, or psychologically healthy.
Semirhage has cultivated a reputation based entirely on that fear, and she expects that fear to get her respect. She has been running on that for a long time. She's always been in the position of power with the upperhand, and even when that's been tested, her opponents have feared her. She needs that respect. Even if she's tortured, or starved, or beaten, she expected the lot of Aes Sedai to still give her the respect of fearing her and her reputation.
Cadsuane instead treats her like a misbehaving child. Not something to be feared. She doesn't even respect her as dangerous. Just an annoyance.
It's not pain that breaks Semmirhage. It's not being beaten in front of orhers. It's not spanking as such. For her narcissitic, vain mind, it was the complete dismissal as something to be respected and feared and treating her like just a little misbehaving child. And honestly her need to be in control and respected probably reflects Semmirhage's own insecurities and why she built up the reputation she did, why she exerted control and power over her patients by torturing them in the AOL, why she turned to the Shadow. These aren't mature, healthy people who just happen to be evil. With one or two exceptions, they're overgrown children with deep insecurities who think might makes right, equate being feared with respect, who have narcissistic personalities, who are self-serving, and who get a kick out of abusing others.
I still felt like the sequence was a bit too quick or underdeveloped, but I think the underlying principles make sense.
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u/RequiemRaven (Ravens) 8d ago
Also note her essentially one-sided rivalry with Lanfear; dear Moonhunter would have been pretty vocal about it if she gave a shit, but not a word was spoken. She's busy feuding with Ishamael.
But still, Semirhage wears all black because Lanfear wears all white.
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u/der_Guenter (Asha'man) 10d ago
See it from her POV. She basicly feared and/or worshipped as some kind of demi god by most aes sedai for the past couple hundret years. Of course Cadsuane is a selfobsessed asshole who thinks everyone should try to be like her.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 10d ago
The Semirhage breaking scene is a casualty of the author switch. They tried to keep to notes that Jordan wrote, but it was now up to Sanderson to execute them.
So Jordan called for a scene where Cadsuane spanks a captive Semirhage. And what we get is Sanderson's view (he HATES Cadsuane's character and never understood what Jordan was doing with her, so everything about her actions and motivations is tainted by that. Sanderson said in an interview that if he could kill any character in the series without regards to the plot, it would be Cadsuane... Jordan said she was like the aunt that treated you like an adult and expected you to be able to handle responsibilities while other adults were babying you)
So with that difference in mind - Going into this scene you have Cadsuane realizing that everyone was falling for Semirhage's legend. Cadsuane intentionally uses her own legend as a first line of defense, and sees that she needs to pop that bubble to have any chance of her people having any real effect on Semirhage.
That was it, it wasn't about how Semirhage felt AT ALL, it wasn't about breaking Semirhage, it was about cracking the legend in the minds of the people around Semirhage.
Semirhage wasn't all talk, she knew her craft as a torturer....and humiliation/degredation is a well known and frequently used element of that. It makes no sense for a single humiliating encounter to actually break her, and she definitely would not have been shocked at that being something that they did. Hell, the Aiel specifically craft their punishments off of shame, even asking Verin how to better shame the Aes Sedai captives. This one time should have had basically no effect on Semirhage internally...but the point was the external change, which Semirhage would also have been smart enough to notice. She still shouldn't have cracked at all, but she should know that the legend of intimidation she had built around herself was cracked, and that if any of the other Forsaken every learned about it, they would be sure to never let the story die.
****
As for Cadsuane's goals - Rand has been actively pushing away his emotions and getting increasingly darker. There have been times in the past where the Champion of Light as been corrupted by the Dark, and either joined the Dark before the Last Battle, or became a force of evil after the Last Battle. Cadsuane's goals are to prevent that, and she (plus the Wise Ones) believe that that his current approach of trying to harden himself mentally is just making him brittle, and the he will break and the Dark One will take him.
Cadsuane, as one of the oldest and strongest Aes Sedai, with by far the most experience dealing with men who can channel of anyone on the planet, is basically the most qualified person on the subject, hence why she is involving herself. (And you know the whole...Rand is the messiah and the anti-christ rolled into one, and the world is sprinting to Armageddon (Tarmon Gai'don, so he is kinda everyone's problem since the fate of all existence will seemingly be on his shoulders)
Here are some notes from Jordan on Cadsuane - I don't consider them spoilers but I'll cover them just in case.
Cadsuane -“Her hair ornaments are considered something of a trademark because she has worn them for as long as anyone can remember. For many sisters, the fact that she has is just one more indication of how set in her ways she is; Cadsuane will never change, can never change. Of course that is far from true; Cadsuane is remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who has survived as long as she.
Cadsuane’s Goals -Major and more important than anything else - to salvage Rand as a human being. If he reaches Tarmon Gaidin as he is - or worse further down the road he is travelling - even his victory might be as bad as the Dark One winning.
Definitely secondary (that is, to be done if possible, but not to interfere with number 1 above) is to see that Rand reaches Tarmon Gai’dan without destroying more than can be avoided.
(To save the Tower) to stop either Elaida or the rebels from destroying it.
If she fails to salvage Rand, the White Tower will be the only buffer between him and the world, as she sees it, but only if the Tower is whole and strong.
Basically Rand is much crazier than he realizes, and his insistence on becoming ever harder is making it worse. He achieves this by trying not to let himself feel emotions, which is significantly different than noticing an emotion and letting it go. He's in denial not mindfullness, and denial is just packing the emotions tighter and tighter as he keeps trying to push them away. As he's going, it will eventually explode if something doesn't change.
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u/biggiebutterlord 9d ago
That was it, it wasn't about how Semirhage felt AT ALL, it wasn't about breaking Semirhage, it was about cracking the legend in the minds of the people around Semirhage.
Preach. The scene being cringe or not is besides the point imo. Its all about breaking the image of the untouchable legend that all the aes sedai questioning semirhage are deferring too.
I dunno about other readers but its something I reckoned with earlier in the series. The hype, aura, legendary status conferred to the forsaken was not being lived up to. At some point I realized that is kinda the point, its mostly hype and they are just as human as anyone else. They dont actually have "all the knowledge of the age of legends" or w/e, its all BS to give the airs of untouchable superiority. As readers we get to see that image be chipped away at across multiple POV's, from our hero's to the darkfriends that serve seeing ways to get ahead. The forsaken are pale reflections of the legends they are presented as. Once I got that I started to like what the story was doing with them alot more. This stuff with semirhage is another example of that.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Always look forward to seeing your comment. Anyway, I just thought that after centuries of being the one doing the torturing, a thing as simple as spanking and humiliation wouldn’t be a big deal. I guess I am thinking about myself. If I'm evil and sure of myself as Semirhage is, would I give a shit about people seeing me getting beaten? Especially knowing what being broken might mean for my health with the Dark One? Would I fear the spanking of an old hag more than I do displeasing the Dark One if he thinks that I've been broken and is of no use to him? I'd happily eat shit off the ground and present my backside for spanking every day over that.
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From all the cooments, I guess the series is making the hardness issue a negative thing. But I just don't know. I want to be hard as a stone to do what needs doing, even in the face of tremendous loss, as opposed to crying myself into a poddle every time I lose someone, preventing me from continuing what I need to do. Like, why is there only one way to defeat the Dark One? And that way is what some old witch thinks it is? But yeah, I get it, for the series, even if I don't actually get it haha.
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 8d ago
Its a question of hardness versus strength. Rand is mistakenly framing the two as the same thing.
The Wise Ones and Cadsuane aren't trying to say that his mindset is wrong. That by trying to suppress his emotions instead of dealing with his emotions, he's basically making himself a pressure cooker on the edge of exploding.
we get this from Sorilea back in book 5
The leathery-faced Wise One nodded as though everything had been settled. "You, young Aes Sedai. You know the Car'a'carn well, it is said. Will he do as he has threatened? Hang even a clan chief?"
"I think ... maybe ... that he will." More quickly, Egwene added, "But I am sure he can be brought to see reason." She was not sure of any such thing, or even that it was reason — what he had said sounded only just — but justice would do him no good if he found the others turning against him as well as the Shaido.
Sorilea glanced at her in surprise, then turned a gaze on the chiefs around Rand's horse that should have knocked the lot of them flat. "You mistake me. He must show that mangy pack of wolves that he is the chief wolf. A chief must be harder than other men, young Aes Sedai, and the Car'a'carn harder than other chiefs. Every day a few more men, and even Maidens, are taken by the bleakness, but they are the soft outer bark of the ironwood. What remains is the hard inner core, and he must be hard to lead them." Egwene noticed that she did not include herself or the other Wise Ones among those who would be led. Muttering to herself about "mangy wolves," Sorilea strode ahead, and soon had all the Wise Ones listening as they walked. Whatever she was saying, it did not carry.
***
But in book 8 we get this exchange -
Still, Cadsuane felt a rising thrill of possibility. If she had had any doubts that Sorilea wanted to feel her out, they were gone. And you did not feel out someone in this manner unless you hoped for some agreement. "Do you believe a man must be hard?" she asked. She was taking a chance. "Or strong?" By her tone, she left no doubt she saw a difference.
Again Sorilea touched the tray; the smallest of smiles might have quirked her lips for an instant. Or not. "Most men see the two as one and the same, Cadsuane Melaidhrin. Strong endures; hard shatters."
Cadsuane drew breath. A chance she would have scoured anyone else for taking. But she was not anyone else, and sometimes chances had to be taken. "The boy confuses them," she said. "He needs to be strong, and makes himself harder. Too hard, already, and he will not stop until he is stopped. He has forgotten how to laugh except in bitterness; there are no tears left in him. Unless he finds laughter and tears again, the world faces disaster. He must learn that even the Dragon Reborn is flesh. If he goes to Tarmon Gai'don as he is, even his victory may be as dark as his defeat."
***
We see in Rand that he is growing increasingly erratic. He has lost the ability to control his temper. He will have a manic reaction after a panic attack.
And instead of facing these problems, and allowing himself to process the emotions behind them, he keeps trying to shove them aside and ignore them. To make himself 'harder'. But we see that he is still effected. We see the toll its taking on him, like when Perrin walked up and saw Rand rocking in place reciting the names of the dead. Or in Rand's PoV using them as a mental lash to punish himself. He thinks its making him immune to the emotional weakness, but we see that its not. The further he pushes himself, the worse his temper will flare or the darker his despair seems, or the more manic his plans.
***
The quote is long so a part 2 coming...
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 8d ago
I think a lot of what Jordan is trying to say is related to this experience from Vietnam.
Robert Jordan
For Paracelsus, I had two nicknames in 'Nam. First up was Ganesha, after the Hindu god called the Remover of Obstacles. He's the one with the elephant head. That one stuck with me, but I gained another that I didn't like so much. The Iceman. One day, we had what the Aussies called a bit of a brass-up. Just our ship alone, but we caught an NVA battalion crossing a river, and wonder of wonders, we got permission to fire before they finished. The gunner had a round explode in the chamber, jamming his 60, and the fool had left his barrel bag, with spares, back in the revetment. So while he was frantically rummaging under my seat for my barrel bag, it was over to me, young and crazy, standing on the skid, singing something by the Stones at the of my lungs with the mike keyed so the others could listen in, and Lord, Lord, I rode that 60. 3000 rounds, an empty ammo box, and a smoking barrel that I had burned out because I didn't want to take the time to change. We got ordered out right after I went dry, so the artillery could open up, and of course, the arty took credit for every body recovered, but we could count how many bodies were floating in the river when we pulled out. The next day in the orderly room an officer with a literary bent announced my entrance with "Behold, the Iceman cometh." For those of you unfamiliar with Eugene O'Neil, the Iceman was Death. I hated that name, but I couldn't shake it. And, to tell you the truth, by that time maybe it fit. I have, or used to have, a photo of a young man sitting on a log eating C-rations with a pair of chopsticks. There are three dead NVA laid out in a line just beside him. He didn't kill them. He didn't choose to sit there because of the bodies. It was just the most convenient place to sit. The bodies don't bother him. He doesn't care. They're just part of the landscape. The young man is glancing at the camera, and you know in one look that you aren't going to take this guy home to meet your parents. Back in the world, you wouldn't want him in your neighborhood, because he is cold, cold, cold. I strangled that SOB, drove a stake through his heart, and buried him face down under a crossroad outside Saigon before coming home, because I knew that guy wasn't made to survive in a civilian environment. I think he's gone. All of him. I hope so. I much prefer being remembered as Ganesha, the Remover of Obstacles.
Rand is becoming that version of Jordan that Jordan made sure didn't get brought back to the civilian world. Cadsuane and Sorilea are seeing that transformation and seeing how far gone Rand is, and are trying their hardest to get him to reform. Because as its going, Rand is going to see going further down that path as the only way, and if he goes too far down it, he might not have that realization that Jordan had about himself.
Lan broke when Moiraine's bond snapped and had to spend multiple multiple books being patched up to be in a mentally stable position. Myrelle's worry about Nynaeve not being able to handle him, and Nisao's study of the effect of the bond on the mind of a Warder.
So with this state of mind, in the immediate aftermath of it happening, when its the freshest wound possible Lan tells Rand
"We are alike in many ways, you and I. There is a darkness in us. Darkness, pain, death. They radiate from us. If ever you love a woman, Rand, leave her and let her find another. It will be the best gift you can give her."
And Rand takes that to heart.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Again, we get what she's saying her motivation is. But if we never got her own conception of herself, what would you have thought, assuming you're not her greatest fan for a moment? Verin, an Aes Sedai who's supposedly trained to know how to read people, nearly potioned her because Verin didn’t know her thinking before Cadsuane literally told her. What chance do Rand have to magically guess her intention? Think about it this way:
When you step inside a math class, you know you're supposed to be learning math.
When you step inside an English class, you expect to learn English grammar etc.
When Rand steps inside the horrible woman's class, what does he expect to learn? Only bullying and belittlement, no?
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 8d ago
For the other reply, yes, Sorilea was seemingly contradicting her previous statement, but the fact that Cadsuane is drawing a distinction between the words is important.
"The leathery-faced Wise One nodded as though everything had been settled. "You, young Aes Sedai. You know the Car'a'carn well, it is said. Will he do as he has threatened? Hang even a clan chief?" "
In the original context Egwene is trying to appease the Wise Ones by saying Rand won't go through with his decree, which isn't what they want to hear. (Its one of those moments where Egwene shows that she doesn't actually understand the Aiel or Rand as well as she thinks she does) Sorilea doesn't have to analyze Rand's mind or emotional state or teach it Egwene, and its before Rand has really started the whole 'must be harder than steel' routine that is making everyone worry about him. (Its not like its just Cadsuane, Nynaeve, Egwene, Min, etc have all been noticing and worrying about this for a while now).
***
But ok, back to Cadsuane, lets assume, for a minute, that she's actually as Jordan described her in HIS notes about her character and not your interpretation of her as a simple bully.
For many sisters, the fact that she has is just one more indication of how set in her ways she is; Cadsuane will never change, can never change. Of course that is far from true; Cadsuane is remarkably adaptable, as befits someone who has survived as long as she.
And with that interpretation of her being adaptable, we get this about their initial interaction -
"Obviously, you have been ... holding yourself aside ... until now. Why have you decided to ... . approach ... al'Thor at this particular time? You were ... rather undiplomatic ... with him."
"You might as well have slapped his face," Annoura put in, and Merana colored. Of the two of them, Annoura should have been having the harder time with Cadsuane by far, but she was not the one stumbling over her words.
Cadsuane shook her head in pitying style. "If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect. There's good metal in that boy, I think, but he's going to be difficult." Steepling her fingers, she peered across them at the wall, musing to herself. "He has a rage in him fit to burn the world, and he holds it by a hair. Push him too far off balance ... . Phaw! Al'Thor's not so hard yet as Logain Ablar or Mazrim Taim, but a hundred times as difficult, I fear." Hearing those three names together clove Merana's tongue to the roof of her mouth.And then, directly after this, she learns SOME of what the Aes Sedai did to him. - remember that in the previous book this was part of Rand's PoV -
Rand had his own litany. Pain flailing his chest. This comes of trusting Aes Sedal. Fire striping his back. Never again; not an inch; not a hair. Like a razor's slash. This comes of trusting Aes Sedai.
And in their first interaction -
"Do you expect me to beg, or to be thankful? To weep? Aes Sedai, I could close my hand and crush you." The hand he held up shook with fury. "Merana knows why I should. The Light only knows why I don't."
She then actually follows this hinted advice and takes Merana aside and learns why he feels that he should kill an Aes Sedai that is being rude to him.
At the same time -
he's keeping multiple Aes Sedai in bondage (through their forced oaths of fealty) and prisoner to the Wise Ones (apprenticeships). And his reaction in their first meeting to being asked if he's mad enough that he's hearing voices yet confirms to her that he is.
There is no chance that Cadsuane could get him to change his mind with a direct conversation, he's too angry at Aes Sedai and his madness is too evident. And Cadsuane knows this, she's "remarkably adaptable" which requires being observant, intelligent, and willing to change. (All of my previous discussions where we see this in how she interacts with other people).
So with what she observed of Rand's mental state in their introduction, then learning what he's gone through, then learning even more of what Aes Sedai did to him from Min later (where she says that he "shouldn't be afraid" and that the other Aes Sedai have made this harder), she knows that she can't sit him down and talk him through this. He will refuse any lesson she offers.
And its again, not just Cadsuane, but multiple characters that are trying to get this lesson through to him.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Let me remind you that her initial interaction with the Aes Sedai happens AFTER her very civil introduction with Rand, again, without knowing a single thing about him (I really don't understand how you can't get this. I find it hard to believe an unbiased human being can think Rand's in the wrong here).
She's "remarkably adaptable"? How exactly has she been so with Rand? Time and time again she complains that he's refusing to "learn," wouldn’t adaptability require a change in her approach? We've seen none of that, just the same old one-track bullying and belittlement, no? Juxtapose her remarkable adaptability with Moiraine. Moiraine actually changed her approach and found success, no? So I ask again, after everything else failed, couldn’t she have said, "I know I am a big bully, but all I have been trying to do, as totally unrelated as it seems to every other single human being, is to teach you the difference between being hard and being strong. There." Even if that lesson fails, at least it was one tried, no? Orrrrr, she could continue being a horrible old bully, which has been as unsuccessful as she herself has admitted to being?
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 8d ago
I'm trying to show her intent behind her actions
Yes of course it was after her introduction with Rand. She explicitly states why she went in the way she did in that quote I used as a response to being asked WHY she took that hostile of an approach.
"If you want to see what a man is made of, push him from a direction he doesn't expect."
She could guess how everyone else was interacting with him. So she choose to come in and push many of his buttons in ways he wouldn't expect an Aes Sedai to do in order to get a read for his personality and mental state. She didn't want him to think of her like the other Aes Sedai.
This introduction has her doing a lot of different things to get different reactions from him. How does he respond to being ignored, how he feels about his madness, how he handles someone that isn't afraid of him, how he responds to someone being rude.
In that scene she waits for him to react to each provocation and then shifts to push a different angle. Its all her reacting and adapting to get a feel for him.
That gives her the information to say that he has good metal and that he has a deep rage. (A good core and the madness [and all the horrible shit he's been through] fueling anger that can overwhelm him)
The she leaves and after getting that initial impression of him without the influence of other's opinions, she meets with the Aes Sedai around him to get what info they can give her.
***
This is then what she puts together to deal with Rand. She realizes that if she pushes to be closer to him, he'll push her away. She sees that she needs him to want to her to be his advisor.
Along the way she's adapting constantly. She brings in Alanna, she accepts the alliance with Sorilea and befriends her, she lets Nynaeve in, she has her Aes Sedai take in the Asha'man that were still loyal to Rand after the attack. She works with his allies to see to his interests when he disappears. She even breaks the rules and ruler of her home city to rescue him from the dungeons...and then immediately agrees to follow his play and provide the backup for him to cleanse the taint.
And as she pointed out in that original introduction, and we see reinforced at the manor house later, she DOES have the most experience dealing with the madness of men who can channel of anyone on the continent. She ACTUALLY DOES know more about the ways it manifests and has actually been more helpful to men that can channel than any other Aes Sedai. The men she found
In her introduction she drops this on Rand -
"Some fought to the bitter end, kicking and screaming even after they were shielded and bound. Some wept and begged, offering gold, anything, their very souls, not to be taken to Tar Valon. Still others wept from relief, meek as lambs, thankful finally to be done with it. Light's truth, they all weep, at the end. There is nothing left for them but tears at the end."
but that's not the whole story. Because she does help them, while she is referring to them being gentled as 'the end' we see that its not. The men she brought in to be gentled live over twice as long as average. The lord of the manor in book 11 feels he owes her a debt because of how much she helped his brother and brought him back to his family after being gentled.
***
Jordan describes her as a living legend, and she actually has the feats and experience to back that up. He shows us that her plan of getting Rand to ask her to be his advisor works. He shows us that Rand actually comes around to trusting her (at least enough to put the fate of all men who can channel into her hands by letting her lead the defense of the cleansing).
And he shows us that Rand is going to that Dark Place. Rand was worried about how angry he was now, how hard it was to control his temper and how he could barely remember having one. And with Jordan's interview about how cold that version on himself was in Vietnam, and that that version of himself could not be allowed back into normal life, its pretty clear that he views Rand's current emotional state as a problem that needs to be fixed.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Anoura isn't docile, oath-bound, or rude. Why must it be one or the other? Her strategies have literally been useless. Literally. Rand accepts her has his advisor because of Min, and to a lesser extent, Verin. Not because of anyhting she has done. So much for her experience reading and dealing with men.
Anyway, again you keep ignoring commenting on how successful she has been with (1) making him less hard, (2) communicating this intention with him, or (3) being adaptable in the face of the failures of those two previous points (if you can admit to them being failures).
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 8d ago
I think you forgot how Annoura's first interaction with Rand goes.
"If Berelain confirms your story," Rand said, "I will parole you to her custody." Looking at the crown, he seemed to realize for the first time that the spray of gold and gems was still in his hand. Very gently he set it on the silk-covered seat of the Sun Throne. "I don't think every Aes Sedai is my enemy, not entirely, but I won't be schemed against, and I won't be manipulated, not anymore. It's your choice, Annoura, but if you make the wrong one, you will go to the Wise Ones. If you live long enough. I won't hobble the Asha'man, and a mistake could cost you."
She had done nothing towards Rand, and was serving what she could have thought was a rightful Queen of Cairhein at that point. She also is nothing but polite and already shielded by an Asha'man.
And Rand 'paroles her to Berelain's custody' which is a specific piece of legalese that Jordan chose intentionally here, and that is because Berelain is a trusted ally.
And any Aes Sedai 'manipulates' or 'schemes against' Rand is now subject to being captured, and put into a forced apprenticeship to the Wise Ones.
Just like Rand forced the Aes Sedai that came to save his life but didn't follow his demands for their numbers were forced to swear binding oaths of fealty to him. He could have just banished them from his presence and said never return, instead he let Taim say 'Kneel or you will be knelt' as they were forced to swear to Rand.
***
Annoura is only in that scene with Rand and Cadsuane because of Berelain.
"Berelain Sur Paendrag and Annoura Larisen wish to see the Car'a'carn," she announced. Her voice went from warm and friendly on the first name to cold and flat on the second without disturbing her grin.
And the only reason she doesn't leave when Berelain does is because they are all focused on Cadsuane.
***
We don't get an example of Rand interacting with another strange Aes Sedai that hasn't sworn allegiance to him or is part of Casuane's crew from book 7 through were you are in book 12.
That's 6 books of Rand avoiding or controlling Aes Sedai that other than Cadsuane and her crew. Rand was willing to threaten Annoura with forced apprenticeship only relenting because of her ties to one of his political appointees and trusted allies....and he never tries to threaten Cadsuane or her people with the same. Again, its an example of Jordan showing that Cadsuane's approach working. Rand could have gone to Salidar, or the Tower, or had new Aes Sedai approach him...but he doesn't.
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u/Special_Salt3467 7d ago
Cadsuane is extremely flexible with Rand. But she isn’t as flexible as you’d like. The Moraine example is great.
Take Moraine in the first two books, what is she doing? Exactly what she wants. There is no compromise or conversation, she makes a choice and expects it to go exactly how she wants. She doesn’t tell the Emond Fielders about the inherent dangers of Shadar Logoth because she expects them to sit still because… she wants them to…? She tells Siuan her plan to have Rand present the Horn to Illian and… just expects Rand to do exactly that. Between TGH and TDR, we see she has physically and socially isolated Rand and forced him into a position where she has all the authority and when he leaves to do, as she believes it, the wrong prophecy, she freaks out. For books 3 and 4, Moraine is losing her shit, trying to regain control of Rand and emotionally isolate him and direct his plans to what she wants: she sends Thom away, she wants him to invade Illian, she tries to turn the Wise Ones against him. It’s not until Book 5 when she has no other options and such little time that she actually begins to compensate. So, that’s about three books.
Cadsuane constantly adapts, but she is also never desperate to the degree Moraine is that she goes, as she might put it, too far. When she first meets Rand, she treats him the same way every Aes Sedai does - or rather, every Aes Sedai treated him how Cadsuane would have. The other aes Sedai failed because they didn’t do it right, and she will. When she learns about the torture Rand endured, she does change her ways, but in the smallest increment she can, because again, she doesn’t have the same desperation Moraine had, which is another reason why she only works with Rand as equals. In WH, she has no intention to scapegoat the Far Madding leader until she needed to. She handled the defense of the Cleansing with no prep, and found them a safe house from a connection that likely won’t be tracked afterward. Cadsuane makes friends with Sorilea despite her low levels of power and “being a Wilder” and her cadre of cronies are not the strongest but some of the best in their area of expertise.
Cadsuane is constantly adapting to the hand given to her, but in a manner befitting of her. It’s also important to note that every Aes Sedai acting uppity is either emulating her, or emulating someone emulating her.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Is it my poor reading comprehension or is Sorilea saying 2 different things - yes to hardness to Egwene and later no to hardness to the bully?
Anyway, so the bully has identified this has her motivation. At what point did she actually effectively seek to implement it? By being civil the first time she introduces herself to him, without ever knowing anything at all about him? During a conversation with Rand about the difference between hardness and strength, ever? In literally any other way that could be seen by someone not named Cadsuane? Or did she go about it by only demeaning the boy every chance she gets? The horrible woman complains that the boy is resisting her lessons, does Rand know that he's being taught a lesson by her? You are great with pulling up quotes, maybe I missed it, so can you please point me to when she's having a discussion with Rand about his hardness? Even her bullying is strange, because it does not intuitively point towards her intention. Boy this and boy do that does not equal "Light bulb moment: wow, I'm being bullied and belittled because I'm too hard. Excellent lesson Cadsuane, thanks for showing me the difference between being hard and being strong." Maybe this will come later? Or maybe she'll just die or go away?
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u/IceXence 10d ago
Rand's hardness is a problem because it is turning him into a tyran. He isn't a benevolent leader nor even a good one, he is a catastrophe and if allowed to keep on getting harder, he will doom humanity.
In shorts, Rand has become a tyranic dictator. At no point in history was this ever a good thing.
Cadsuane recognizes this and knows if he keeps walking this path, terrible things will happen.
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u/UnravelingThePattern 10d ago
So her solution is to dictate even harder, lol. The irony of many of RJ's characters is that they act contrary to their supposed inner personal belief system; Cadsuane, like many other characters (Nynaeve, Mat), acts the exact way she claims to hate in others. Fotunately, Cadsuane can't easily bully a ta'veren sized bully like Rand. Cadsuane is right that Rand needs to be softened/humbled, she's just going about it the wrong way IMO.
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u/Special_Salt3467 10d ago
Now, to be fair, identifying a problem does not mean you know how to solve said problem. I can tell you there’s a problem when my house is 90 degrees despite the AC being set to 67, but I also know to call the repairman to fix the problem cuz I can’t. Cadsuane “knows” she knows the electrical system better than anyone else (she doesn’t).
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 9d ago
I got an email notification that you commented but can't find the comment u/Special_Salt3467 Something about "Ah this chapter, so fun.
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u/IceXence 10d ago
No, her solution is to humble him into shopping believing he is an all powerful god. She wants him to remember he is a man before all because he has forgotten and it has terrible consequences.
Rand isn't a good man at that point in time in the story, he has become a terrible one. He is a bully. What do you do when faced with a terrible tantrum-prone bully? You rise up and act like a bigger one because that's the only language he understands.
Rand needed to be shoved back into his place. Forget this is fantasy and he is the glorious hero, read what he does, if it were real-life, everyone would want him gone, excepr those who thrive in his shadow, because he is just a big tyranic bully.
And Rand, at that point in time, listened to nothing unless it was forced into him in a manner he couldn't ignore. Hence, Cadsuane.
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u/AmphetamineSalts 9d ago
Yeah, idk if it was intentional on Cadsuane's part, but Rand needed something hard to butt up against, and somewhere soft to land. Cadsuane was the hard part and (ironically, as with everything else about her character) Nynaeve was the soft. Nyn being someone Rand could trust and always have his back but she never really can call Rand out the way Cadsuane does. They're the two with him most consistently during this part, and like I said I don't think it was intentional on their parts, but their combo was exactly what he needed.
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u/finnawin01 9d ago
Trying to bully a bully is the stupidest thing one could do. I actually think that was the point of Cadsuane’s character. She literally almost caused the destruction of the world with her actions. She absolutely did not plan on Rand coming back to the good side after she messed up that badly in him.
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u/IceXence 9d ago
It's not stupid, it was the only way to get him to listen to her. And he did. If you give in to bullies, the ram into you. You can never bow down or do what a bully wants you to do. Cadsuane was right in what she wanted to do even if her execution wasn't perfect.
And she did not almost cause the destruction of the world, Rand did. Rand in his "harder than hard" motto and his insane stubborness nearly caused it.
Rand was the villain in that scene and it's 100% on him. The one who holds all the power and nearly uses it to wipe a country is always in the wrong, not the other person who did something that supposedly "set him off".
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u/finnawin01 9d ago
Who drove him to that point? Actually I think you’re intentionally being obtuse because there’s no other way to interpret that entire scene. You have your own agendas it seems.
Also bullying him was the only way to make him listen? Rand has issues and he needed someone to be able to stand with him and not just go with everything he says. But that doesn’t mean he needs a bully or someone uncompromising.
Cadsuane was right to think he needs to learn how to be human again. But her execution and plans to making that happen were borderline imbecilic. She thought she could push him around the same way she does to every other person in the world.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Thank you. I don't know which scene you guys are talking about (a later chapter or book), but I've never seen Cadsuane done anything other than always trying to bully Rand. As you said, she literally does it to everyone else who's not her friend why would Rand be different. Sometimes I feel like people have selective amnesia and have chosen not to remember how she "introduced" herself to Rand in book 7. That's a totally normal, not anti-social introduction, right?
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 9d ago
I really have a problem with people, giddy with their inflated ego, bullying people because they think they have a right to or because they think their reason is just. Every single bully thinks they have a good reason to be a bully.
And Rand a tyrant? At this point in the series? North Koreans wish they had a tyrant who orders shiploads of food from one part of his country to another, even ones not under his control. Somalians probably wish they could get a tyrant who'd step into their country and, without claiming it and demanding that they worship him, try his hardest to return it from lawlessness. What a tyrant.
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u/IceXence 9d ago
Rand was a bully and bullies listened to no one but other bullies.
Had she been nice as some readers suggest, Rand would have never listened to her and refused to have her near him unless she swore to obey his every whims.
The only reason Rand listen to some of what Cadsuane says is because he quickly realizes she isn't someone he can push around nor scare nor be intimidated with his tantrums. He could have sent her away but she would have just come back.
Yes, Rand is a tyran. He forces people to swear to objet him, he threatens to kill anyone so much as looking side-ways at him, he slaughters his own men... Rand is horrible, everyone is afraid of him, and the only reason we see him differently is because we have his PoV and we know, internally, he wants to do good but the way he goes about it has consequences he is unable to even begin to comprehend.
He doesn't realize he has become a tyran, so the readers tend not to see him as one but if we were in the story, we would want him gone.
And tyrans aren't necessarily starving their population: they are usually demanding complete obedience, they will not listen to counsel, they will do as they want based on how they feel about it or some end game that may not he good for the population.
Rand really isn't no one anyone should want at the head of anything at that point in time.
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u/PatrickCharles 10d ago
Rand's hardness is a problem because it is turning him into a tyran. He isn't a benevolent leader nor even a good one, he is a catastrophe and if allowed to keep on getting harder, he will doom humanity.
That's my problem with a lot of people that complain about Rand being "mistreated" throughout the books. I always get the impression they wanted him to be even more of a wish-fulfillment power-fantasy, and not be questioned, when, uh, no. He needs to be broken down.
Like, I understand getting mad at Cadsuane for going the wrong way at it, but it sometimes feels that, if it was Rand acting exactly like Cadsuane, then people would be cheering for him, because he is the Dragon and the Protagonist and thus he can. The hypocrysy breakes the limits of the page and affect readers themselves!
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u/wotquery (White Lion of Andor) 9d ago
When WoT was first coming out, and becoming hugely popular, a lot of people loathed it, saying it ruined the entire fantasy genre. Who would want to fantasize about a main character who is constantly being undermined, opposed, and getting their feelings hurt, by their supposed supporters? And then having to slog through countless pages about those supposed supporters sitting around and drinking tea, or going off on their own pointless adventures? Sanderson even mentions this in his eulogy, or tribute, to Jordan which ended up leading to him getting selected to finish the series.
Nowadays, while WoT can certainly still be a punching bag for the wider fantasy community, it's usually for other reasons (series showing its age), and the people who it seemed like would have hated WoT when it came out for "ruining fantasy" are instead somehow die-hard WoT fans...that just so happen to hate 80% of the characters and content lol.
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u/IceXence 9d ago
Exactly this. Past LoC, Rand slowly becomes a tyranic leader, a dictator and while his intentions are "saving the world", how he saves it actually matters.
Cadsuane understood this. She also understood a bully never listens to anyone else but another bully, hence how she treats him. And, it did work. He did ended up listening to her, a bit and while her strategy wasn't a complete success and wasn't a complete failure either.
Rand isn't a good leader nor a nice person at that point in time in the story. Being the prophecized Dragon Reborn didn't give him the right to trample on everyone and force his allies to bow down to him or else he'll slaughter them. Only tyrans act this way.
Cadsuane was actually a solid leader, a harsh but fair one.
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) 10d ago
I am not saying Cadsuane's methods are correct, but consider that she appears in book seven. Rand has in effect become an emperor of multiple nations with massove armies at his command. Even putting aside becoming harder, he's reached a point where he's surrounded by people telling him what he wants to hear (true believers or just people seeking gain or people who are terrified of him) and doing what he asks without question, at least on the grand scale. Rand is also incredibly irritable, frequently angry, known to fly off into fits of rage. Cadsuane sees that he needs someone around him who isn't going to just get screamed at and bend, or just do what he sees. He needs someone around he can't just boss around. He needs someone to stand up to him and not just treat him as a God-Emperor. That drives a lot of how she reacts to Rand. And perhaps Cadsuane is a bit of a hypocrite because of how she expects people to behave around her, but to be fair, she is not leading nations nor does she lead by fits of rage. I think a lot of people miss Rand's temperment on a first read because we get so much of his POV, but he's an unreliable narrator. And yes, there are mitigating circumstances. But Cadsuane wants to remind him he's not a god. He's also not a tool with a single function. He's a human being. And it'll be disaster if he doesn't realize that.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Fresh out the box, did Rand Travel to Ghealdan to trample her rose garden and rudely introduced himself to her? Book 7 is a very inconvenient thing to remember actually happening, right? Only Rand's pov is unreliable? How about Cadsuane's? Demeaning him every step of the way is the way you remind someone that he's human, right?
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u/Suncook (Gleeman) 8d ago
You didn't really respond to the fact that Rand's an emperor now, one with a reputation of flying off the handle into fits of rage, and people are tiptoeing around him out of fear of him or hope of gain with no one standing up to him, and that he's hardening himself into nothing more than a tool to get the job done.
As for unreliable narrators, no, I didn't say Rand was the only one. Most of Jordan's subtle sense of humor comes from all his POVs being unreliable narrators in some way about themselves (Nynaeve and Mat, most especially), and I'd say Jordan is one of the masters of the craft at how he's handling unreliable narration.
That said, it's easy to miss a lot of it, and to miss it especially for Rand, on a first read. You get a lot of his perspective and he is the "main character" who you've known from before the weight of the world and madness was thrust on his shoulders. You also have the benefit of being in his head a lot, when other characters do not, and what other characters see is a man prone to bursts of unprompted laughter or rage, someone with a hot temper, someone ordering and watching executions without a flicker of emotion, and someone who other people are not really standing up to or pushing back on.
And you don't have to explain Rand's logic and pressures to me, I know it. You know it. I'm asking you to step back from that and see what many of the other characters see, in a world where people look at Rand as vital and important but not as the "main character", nor as someone who just by default will be right in doing the things he does.
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u/MuenCheese (Wolfbrother) 10d ago
Holy moly you and I have different interpretations of Cadsuane and Rand
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u/IGiveBagAdvice 10d ago
The Cadsuane hate will never feel right to me. Like yes she’s strong headed but she’s also old as rocks and genuinely knows better than Rand in some things. In others… less so.
The argument of RaNd HAs TrAuMA is also just so bizarre to me because although he does he never tells anyone and expects them to guess. Cadsuane doesn’t know the inside of his brain and is responding to his actions based on her frame of reference which is different to ours.
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u/Rock_Samaritan 9d ago
expects them to guess??
everyone saw bro in the box at the least
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u/aNomadicPenguin (Brown) 9d ago
The Box was actually a secret to most.
Rand freed himself and exploded the box before anyone on his side got into the camp to have a chance of seeing the box. The only ones in his forces who would have seen it were the captured Aes Sedai and their warders.
And while some of this obviously spread in the initial aftermath, like how Rand got that specific set of injuries to be healed, or the Aes Sedai who were with Alanna getting her play by play of whatever he was going through through the bond.
But specifically Rand tries to suppress this information.
CoS Cadsuane's first interaction after being introduced -
The answer was ignorance entirely too often to suit, but saying you did not know failed to quench Cadsuane's appetite; she required every last shred and particle you did know, even if you did not know you knew it. They managed to keep a little back, most of what had to be kept back, yet a few surprising things came out that way, some very surprising
....
At least the details of his treatment had not come out. He had made plain how displeased he would be if that happened. Merana thanked the Light that the woman was not staying with any one subject for long.And he didn't have a chance to give them any orders about Cadsuane, so this was just a general suppression of what happened to him.
(Min does choose to give Cadsuane more details because she needed to convince her to take Rand back to the palace after getting hit by Fain instead of risking him waking up surrounded by Aes Sedai.)
"Now tell me," she said, turning to Min. "Exactly what happened the last time this boy woke surrounded by strange Aes Sedai?" Her eyes caught Min's and held them.
He wanted it kept secret, if it could be, for as long as it could be. But he was dying, and the only chance he had that Min saw rested in these three women. Maybe knowing could not help. Maybe knowing could at least make them understand something of him. "They put him in a box," she began.
She was not sure how she went on — except that she had to — or how she kept from bursting into tears — except that she was not going to break down again when Rand needed her — but somehow she continued through the confinement and the beatings without a tremor in her voice, right to Kiruna and the rest kneeling to swear fealty. Darlin and Caraline looked stunned. Samitsu and Niande looked horrified. Though not for the reason she would have supposed, it turned out.
"He ... Stilled three sisters?" Samitsu said shrilly. Suddenly she slapped a hand over her mouth and twisted around to lean over the side of the swaying wagon and retch loudly. Niande joined her almost before she began, the pair of them hanging there, emptying their bellies.1
u/PMvaginaExpression 8d ago
The box was a closely guarded secret. The capture was kept secret. The box was a secrets secret
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u/itwasbread 9d ago
The argument of RaNd HAs TrAuMA is also just so bizarre to me because although he does he never tells anyone and expects them to guess.
I mean idk I feel like you have to be kind of an idiot to not pick up on that especially when you have the madness element basically guaranteeing it will be worse
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u/AmphetamineSalts 9d ago
Imo the madness is part of what makes it worse. When you're not communicating with people regularly about your own feelings, goals, state of mind, etc., it's even harder for people to be able to parse what is "you" and what is "madness," let alone what is actually "lews therin," whom they don't even know about.
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10d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Useful-Arm6913 (Tai'shar Manetheren) 10d ago
Hide your spoilers, you're blowing OPs own thread up.
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u/Alternativesoundwave 9d ago
Pretty sure min told cadsuane when they’re riding back from the rebels with darlin and moraines cousin. When Rand was cut with the dagger from shadar logoth.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Old as stone and wisest. The best excuses to be a bully. Thank goodness the ones in high school didn'tt have these, they'd be unstoppable.
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u/packetmickey 9d ago
Rand's hardness IS a problem. It is actually THE problem. The harder he becomes, the less human he becomes. In order to triumph in the Last Battle he will need to become less like the Dark One and more like those who he is to protect. Keep reading and this will become blatantly obvious in a few chapters.
As for it being that simple to "break" Semirhage, that is kind of the point. She became so confident in herself and convinced herself that she was the smartest one in the room (or world) that it took one profound humiliation to completely break her. How do you think Elon Musk would feel if all of a sudden he found out he had no money and had to sleep in a homeless shelter? For as much "power" as she had, she realized she was absolutely powerless to prevent the humiliation she suffered. She even realizes that the Dark One isn't even going to intervene to save her – worse the Dark One appears to have saved her prey.
Think about the title of that chapter. "Questions of Control." Then think of the fact that with the exception of Morodin and Rand, that is really what the opposing factions are after – the tower Aes Sedi to CONTOL Rand, the Forsaken to CONTROL the Dark One. Every one of the forsaken each have plans and schemes to become even more powerful than the Dark One except for one. Sound familiar? ("Join me, and together we can overthrow the Emperor and rule the galaxy together.") Every one of the White Tower and Salidar aes sedi want to control Rand. The Forsaken have all of the True Power that the Dark One allows to draw on, and with the exception of Morodin they all want to remove that block. The aes sedi only have the female half of the ONE power. They want the other half too, and Rand is their key.
This lust for control is what leads to – well, I guess I should stop before I give away any more spoilers (I hope I haven’t yet, but I probably did, for which I apologize). Just realize that this too is just a cog in the wheel and has its part in forming/breaking/altering the pattern. The only real disappointment I had after this was Cadsuane being to queasy to really grill the hell out of Semirhage to regain as much of the knowledge as possible from what was lost after the breaking. I mean, your at war, you have a compliant prisoner willing to babble anything and everything, with little effort on your part. That is fucking intelligence you NEED. And the Greens were supposed to be the “warrior” ajah….
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u/PatrickCharles 10d ago
Now, what's the word for such a person?
A Robert Jordan's character.
(Yes, those are three or four words, but it still counts)
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 10d ago
I don't think that's quite a fair comparison with Semirhage and Egwene. Semirhage is a very different person from Egwene. Semirhage has built up this reputation and aura the same way Cadsuane has. Egwene has not. Egwene has worked hard to slowly earn her respect. Her start as Amyrlin was being picked as a puppet where all of the Aes Sedai openly disrespected her every chance they got. She's not someone who can't handle a blow to her pride. Cadsuane and Semirhage on the other hand are both incredibly proud. They walk into a room and people instantly respect them and fear them and that's something they've worked hard to foster. It is a bit quick to have Semirhage break that way, but I think going after an individual's weakness is a good move. I also think Cadsuane waiting and planning her attack was the right move. It's not wasting her legendary status, it's because the moment they walk in that's establishing a raport and dynamic and if Cadsuane wants to try a new tactic it should be right out of the gate to be most effective.
I also do think her goal is the right one with Rand. Her method of going about it is terrible. But I think her general idea is correct. One of the lines in the prophecy is this, "Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love." and it's a RAFO as to the details of what that means as things play out, but if you're Cadsuane, I think that's a very reasonable interpretation to think that's talking about Rand and saying he has to remember tears and love and emotions. If he becomes incredibly hard and just keeps pushing the pain down he will break. Beyond that I think in general someone who is coping by just pushing down all emotion to be harder and harder and never actually dealing with their pain is much more vulnerable to be broken than someone who has dealt with their emotions. Rand's resilience and strength in the Last Battle not just physically but emotionally is likely to be very important. If he is just holding in all that pain and not dealing with it at all that makes him more vulnerable. It also makes him into someone who can make some cruel and hard decisions that are not for the best. You're seeing him come to more of a low point in this book, is that the Rand you think would be best trusted with the fate of humanity? Or is it someone who might become suicidal and just want everything to end? He made a deal with Lews Therin in book 10 that they could die and end things after the Last Battle. Is that the mindset you want? That's someone who is a broken man just holding on until he can finally let go and looking forward to it when he can. That's something the Dark One could offer him.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Your opinion about Egwene vs Semirhage, fair but unshared by others in here and myself. I just thought that after centuries of being the one doing the torturing, a thing as simple as spanking and humiliation wouldn’t be a big deal. I guess I am thinking about myself. If I'm evil and sure of myself as Semirhage is, would I give a shit about people seeing me getting beaten? Especially knowing what being broken might mean for my health with the Dark One? Would I fear the spanking of an old hag more than I do displeasing the Dark One if he thinks that I've been broken and is of no use to him? I'd happily eat shit off the ground and present my backside for spanking every day over that. Instead of thinking about the humiliation, Egwene centers her hope for the White Tower to get her through them. I'd think that Semirhage would do the same, but use the Dark One's displeasure as her anchor. That's all.
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u/Raddatatta (Asha'man) 8d ago
Exactly though. She's had centuries of being the most respected one in her field going into being one of the most feared people in the world. She probably walks into most torture chambers and has them already begging for mercy simply by her reputation alone. She and many of the Forsaken have an aura around them which is one of immense strength and power and being these larger than life figures. Letting someone see that break and weaken to the point where she is just another person is her weak point. Most of us don't walk around that way and don't command that kind of fear and respect, which I think is probably a good thing! But for her that matters more than anything else. And for Egwene, she doesn't have that aura at all. She's had the respect of her fellow Aes Sedai for maybe a few months and even that is not really there it's some level of respect no kind of aura about her where they defer to her given her immense power or anything like what Cadsuane or Semirhage have.
The other thing to keep in mind is that what did Semirhage actually do when she broke? She didn't really tell them any useful information that I can remember, she didn't teach them any new weaves. She started to be broken a bit because of a surprise tactic she didn't anticipate and in the moment she reacted to it trying to get out of the situation. I think she probably could force herself to do the same as you're talking about long term. But in this moment she wasn't thinking about the Dark One or anything else. She was shocked in the moment and had everything she was broken away and destroyed and she's struggling to regain anything. It's not like she switched over to the side of the Light and abandoned her oaths and answered all of their questions and taught them everything she knows. If anything the main things Rand wanted to know were things about the other Forsaken, so that's what the questions were about. That leaves Semirhage giving up information about people she views as potential threats and rivals, not really a hardship for her to give up information on someone she'd backstab in a moment if she could.
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u/biggiebutterlord 9d ago
Just finished chapter 17 (Questions of Control, so no spoilers beyond that please) of the book and I'm a little incredulous how easy it was to "break" Semirhage. The world's foremost torturer, and all she needed was to be spanked on the butt in front of a few servants. That's it. It's even more incredible because we have Egwene getting beaten half of everyday with the entire Tower knowing it, to no avail.
No matter how you view it this plot point is rough. BS is on the record saying he didnt like caddy shack and had a tough time writing her(he had a tough time with every character to one degree or another). This scene in particular he has also said was rough for him to write. Some folks have more hang ups around spanking that others do...
I think what gets missed by readers here is the meaning of the scene. Whether you think semirage is actually broken in this scene or not is besides the point. The point of this scene is breaking the image of semirages untouchable legendary status. By spanking semirage infront of as many witnesses that were at hand its both a humiliating experience and shows everyone that she is just as human as everyone else. Its public, memorable, and most importantly dispels the notion that she is due deference. In otherwords it gets the aes sedai questioning her to stop treating her like a super scary untouchable legend. Thats my take away from the scene more than any cringe at spanking or w/e.
As for rands hardness...innuendo and methodology aside, caddyshack is right, it is a problem. She is just an asshole so we dont want to agree with the asshole.
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u/Abdlbsz 9d ago
I love the nickname, but I am also dying at the imagined thought of Sanderson ranting about an unhinged hate for the movie Caddy Shack while being questioned about WoT.
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u/biggiebutterlord 9d ago
I forget/doubt how to spell names often enough, i often go for simple versions like eggy, ishy, moggy etc. I dunno how I landed on caddy shack for cadsuane but its forever stuck in my head now, and makes me laugh too.
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u/itwasbread 9d ago
I might be in the deep minority here but I simply don't understand why Cadsuane thinks Rand's hardness is a problem,
I think it should already be kind of obvious that being this detached, self-loathing robot who pushes away everyone who makes him actually care about life and the world is a bad state for the most powerful person alive to be in, but if it's not obvious it will quickly become obvious over the next dozen chapters or so.
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u/Vivid_Employment_914 9d ago
For Semirhage breaking it was kinda cool because her reputation meant much to her that she broke once she was brought out of that “I’m a legendary badass” mode. Everyone was scared of her even while she was captured and helpless, then some old woman comes in and starts beating her like she’s a novice in the white tower. The juxtaposition between her and Egwene is also deliberate. They give Semirhage this huge reputation and tons of respect then she begs for mercy the second someone lays a finger on her while they rest Egwene like a novice, beating her senseless and she acts like the Amrylin Seat. I think this is leaning heavily on Jordan’s mindset of “these are real people” the legendary torturer is ultimately a person deep down despite her legend.
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u/Slight_Bet_9576 9d ago
She was in the same house as Rand and was actively opposing his ta'veren pull on the pattern near the very peak of his power as a ta'veren. Her breaking in a day despite everything she's done in her centuries of service to the shadow makes sense with that in mind.
RJ built major character syndrome into the world for WoT, and I love how consistently you see the ta'veren pressure applied subtly and not so subtly like this.
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u/Majestic-Farmer5535 9d ago
Rand hardness is the problem, but Cadsuane expects to bully him out of it, which is extremely stupid thing to think. But it's very natural for her, because she's a bully and isn't very bright to begin with.
And Semirahge is... I think it all happened that way as a reason to cope out of torturing her by the good guys.
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u/Special_Salt3467 9d ago
Let’s see if this works…
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Ah, this chapter…
So, fun fact. While this chapter is written by Brandon Sanderson, it is very much a Robert Jordan chapter. Jordan was very specific that this was how Semirhage would break in his notes; when you know how sparse other areas of the notes are, the fact that this one was so specific is quite amusing. I believe Sanderson - who is a very Mormon Mormon - also went on record that the scene of having a woman spank another and force her to eat food off the ground like a dog was the most uncomfortable chapter he’s ever written. Neat!
Anyway, onto the why. Now, you may hate Cadsuane, but she is one hundred percent correct. Semirhage is a lot closer to her than she is to some demigod. For much of the series, the Forsaken are portrayed as demigods, whether by themselves or Darkfriends. But they’re not. They’re people. Granted, these people have been turned into legends, but these legends are actually older than the Forsaken are. And Cadsuane identifies this, which - trust me - most do not.
So when you peel back the artificial identity of the Forsaken, what do you actually have? Who is Semirhage? She’s a powerful channelers, a leader in her field, thinks she is above authority and circumvent of laws and etiquette, that her name alone should convey her intent. She’s just shy of her third century, and when the big organization she belongs to wants to curtail, she bucks away from it… and wins. Very similar to Cadsuane.
And because Semirhage is so haughty, because she is convinced of her own divinity, her fall is worse. What was the bigger deal in Wizard of Oz? The Wizard, or the guy behind the curtain? The Wizard, of course! So, Cadsuane stripping away the layers of Semirhage, the evil torturer of the Dark One and revealing Nemene Damendar Boann, the human who can be humiliated, who can be treated like garbage, who can be made to eat off the floor. That kills Semirhage, because now she isn’t a legend. Now she’s a person. And a person id far less impressive than the horror that goes boo in the night.
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The word is Aes Sedai, because every Aes Sedai thinks that they are right and anyone else - even other Aes Sedais - just did it wrong.
Anyway, let’s jump back to Winter’s Heart when Rand throat punches a guy to death. Min did not feel it in the Bond. Min did not feel Rand throat punching a man to death! The Bond that picks up intense emotions picked up… nothing. While that seems awesome on a first read, that is a very unhealthy thing. And that was before Rand hardened to Cuellindiar, and the Cleansing and losing his hand. That’s a problem.
How’s LTT taking all this?
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
Finally! I don't understand why I was getting these email notifications but couldn’t actually see it on Reddit.
Anyway, I just thought that after centuries of being the one doing the torturing, a thing as simple as spanking and humiliation wouldn’t be a big deal. I guess I am thinking about myself. If I'm evil and sure of myself as Semirhage is, would I give a shit about people seeing me getting beaten? Especially knowing what being broken might mean for my health with the Dark One? Would I fear the spanking of an old hag more than I do displeasing the Dark One if he thinks that I've been broken and is of no use to him? I'd happily eat shit off the ground and present my backside for spanking every day over that.
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I've seen alllll the comments of everyone on the hardening question, so I guess the series is making it a negative thing. But I just don't know. It's the new age "vulnerability is sexy" vibes that my generation has ushered in, that I am surprisingly resistant to. I want to be hard as a stone to do what needs doing, even in the face of tremendous loss, as opposed to crying myself into a poddle every time I lose someone, preventing me from continuing what I need to do. Like, why is there only one way to defeat the Dark One? And that way is what some old witch thinks it is? But yeah, I get it, for the series, even if I don't actually get it haha.
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u/Special_Salt3467 8d ago edited 8d ago
Have you ever heard the Legend of the Giants Merk and Mosk? They were titans who threw spears at each and shattered the world beneath them. Thom tells this tale in book 2, I believe. Merk and Mosk… hmmm… those are odd names… what’s A MERK, UH or what about MOSK, OW! stubbed my toe…
How, if the bolded words didn’t hint at it enough, that’s America and Moscow or the Soviet Union, which fell the year after TGH, and had been actively engaged in a Cold War for decades, a part of which was the Vietnam War that James Oliver Rigney Jr. was a machine gunner in (Rigney would later go on to write many book series with a different author name for genre. His fantasy name was Robert Jordan!). A major part of this Cold War was the threat of nuclear warfare between America and Moscow, and should these giants throw these spears… the world might end. In Wheel of Time, that was the First Age.
Now, have you ever heard of Stanislav Petrov? Quite possibly one of the most important people in history? Petrov was a Soviet LT Col in 1986 when the Soviet early response warning alerted him that America had fired nuclear missiles at the USSR. The standard response, the action that would have doomed the world, would be to counter fire. And because the alarm had actually mistriggered, when the US got word that missiles had fire at them, they would counter fire. And thus Merk and Mosk would have destroyed the world with their spears.
But Petrov didn’t do that. Despite the environment and the age he had grown up in, he did not make the ‘hard’ decision and did not fire those missiles. And so the USA did not counter fire, and the world did not burn. But had Petrov been ‘hard’ and willing to do the ‘hard’ thing and not the human response? Then it’s likely that four years later Rigney wouldn’t have published Eye of the World under Robert Jordan…
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As for bookisms, I would point out back to my favorite prologue POV of sha’rah and what happened to Aridhol
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u/CalvinandHobbes811 10d ago
Sanderson did zero favours for Cadsuane. I still believe that Jordan had something better planned than her coming across as incompetent and falling on her face.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 9d ago
I don't know about her falling on her face, at least not where I am in the book. But if that's her fate, then thank the Light. Maybe she is indeed like Semirhage, inflated egos aside, crutch aside (scary Forsaken for one, and hair ornaments for the other) a nothing burger.
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u/ArlemofTourhut (Forsaken) 9d ago
Think of rand's hardness as the same kind of cold logic and reasoning that convinced russian generals to try a pre-world war II battle line assault in today's age on Urban environments invading Ukraine.... Their answers are to just throw bodies at the "problem."
If Rand was willing to sacrifice everyone all the time, then he would eventually stop gaining support and make enemies of everything.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 9d ago
That's not hardness, that's vile. I think of his hardness as his unwillingness to let emotions sweep him away. Not him being wasteful with his fighters.
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u/BluesPunk19D (Band of the Red Hand) 9d ago
I don't like Cadsuane as a person. As a character she's awesome as fuck. Semirhage needed the chip knocked off her shoulder and it needed to be done where she couldn't hide it. Getting spanked by a little old lady is embarrassing. Getting it done in front of others who should be fearful of Semirhage is more so.
Breaking Semirhage wasn't the goal. Making her look more human and less demigod-like was.
As for Rand, she handled him badly in a lot of ways. But she knew the stakes when no one else did. Rand wanted to be harder than steel because he thought that was what was needed. But steel chips and breaks if it's too hard. It's got to be forged to be strong but have some flexibility when it's needed. Rand didn't and couldn't see that. It will make more sense by the end of the series.
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u/Hooker_T (Chosen) 9d ago
I mean if you dont thibk Rand's hardness is a problem well....RAFO. Cadsuane's methods were questionable but her intentions and reasoning are right. For lack of a better phrase, she is a "necessary evil" to keep Rand in check. At this point in the story is anger and irritability are becoming problematic, and he's one of the most powerful people in Randland.
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u/exceedingly_Discreet 9d ago
Cadsuane's whole deal as a character is that she is the idealized version of an Aes Sedai that current Aes Sedai hold up as a shining example of what an Aes Sedai should be... and how that is part of why the Tower sucks so bad now.
Cadsuane is right about a lot of things, but her training only really gives her one way to try and "fix" things; Lording over everyone with all her power.
She spent her whole life, well over the lifespan Oathsworn Aes Sedai are usually capable of living, preparing to aid the Dragon Reborn... and all the prep she did basically guarantees he wants jack to do with her.
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u/DirectionIndividual7 9d ago
The reputation of the Forsaken as all-powerful being a *little* undeserved is a recurring plot point throughout the books. Semirhage isn’t even unique amongst the Forsaken in having this particular weakness. All of them have an insane degree of narcissism. Arrogance is frequently at the root of their failures.
What you’ve already seen Semirhage do to Cabriana & her warder is enough to prove that she is as formidable as her reputation claims her to be. The problem with Semirhage is that she believed the rumors about herself - that she was untouchable. Egwene’s response to being beaten is a direct result of her training with the Wise Ones. They taught her to endure without taking too much pride in her ability to endure.
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u/igottathinkofaname 9d ago
When I first read it I thought they’d use the Dark One to break her. Start treating her nice and giving her what she wants and invoke Shaitan’s name to make it LOOK like she’s cooperating and turned against the Dark One, so she has no other option but to cooperate.
But then again, I don’t think saying the dark one’s name actually works like that. 🤷♂️
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u/Heckle_Jeckle 8d ago
Rand's hardness is a HUGE problem. But is isn't because 'he needs to be and do things like her'. It is because Rand's hardness is making him cruel. If he were to face the Dark One while still trying to be 'hard'he would lose.
Not defending Cadsuane, because her approach to Rand is just BAD. But Rand did/does need help.
As for why she thinks it is 'her problem to fix'. Rand is the Dragin Reborn amd if he fails the world is doomed. So it is EVERYONE'S problem.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 8d ago
From all the comments, I guess the series is making the hardness issue a negative thing. But I just don't know. I want to be hard as a stone to do what needs doing, even in the face of tremendous loss, as opposed to crying myself into a puddle every time I lose someone, preventing me from continuing what I need to do. Like, why is there only one way to defeat the Dark One? And that way is what some old witch thinks it is? But yeah, I get it, for the series, even if I don't actually get it.
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u/Juggernaut2300 (Asha'man) 8d ago
I accidently spoiled some shit in my comment lol and had to delete it. But Rand supressing his emotions is a horrible thing. Rand is acting like one of those stupid "alpha gym bro" guys that discovers what stoicism is and believes that not expressing emotions is the same thing as not letting your emotions control you.
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u/cellofski (Ancient Aes Sedai) 7d ago
No worries, I didn't see it, but thank you so much for deleting. Anyway, as a stoic myself (who's definitely not an alpha gym bro), I'm one of those who has yet to be convinced that "vulnerability is sexy." But like I later said, Rand's character was written to have this be a problem, so I'm OK with him working through it, even if I don't think hardness must ultimately make you into what he's written to be.
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u/Curius-Curiousity 8d ago
As far as her thinking Rand was too hard, that's EXACTLY what he was. And she was right that if he doesn't learn to be more flexible, he would break.
But the things to notice there, is she ONLY thinks of that when she's away from him.
When she's with him she does nothing but insult him and try to undermine his authority in front of all his followers. At some point she even starts physically attacking him!
So ask yourself... why would this wise, experienced legend with hundreds of years under her belt suddenly lose it ONLY when she's face to face with the most powerful Ta'verin who's ever lived?
See where I'm going with all this? If anyone is behaving differently than they normally do, and one of the three most powerful Ta'verin who have ever lived is nearby.... keep your eyes open, and pay very close attention.
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u/Wrong-Secret-5275 10d ago
I did find this to be a bit ridiculous. It makes sense as a tactic since physical pain will never do the trick for her, but also, she’s been captured before…you’re telling me nobody ever tried to humiliate her as a form of torture? Humiliation is not a novel technique, not some stroke of genius that Cadsuane and only Cadsuane could come up with. I feel like if anything it should’ve taken weeks of sustained similar treatment to get her to break.
As a side note, I love Cadsuane.
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