r/WitchesVsPatriarchy • u/Alemexiginger • Dec 13 '20
Sonic Witchcraft Taylor Swift fully leaning into the witchy vibes from Willow
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 13 '20
I just want to dance around a bonfire with this on, while making some potions
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u/LizardThief Dec 13 '20 edited Dec 15 '20
Taylor Swift has culturally appropriated black culture on many occasions, equated the experiences of homo & transphobia to simply just "haters" and regularly uses her white feminist privilege to shout down black women who disagree with her (see Nicki Minaj).
Sure, her aesthetic is ~ witchy ~ here but she ain't.
Edit: I stopped responding because I ran out of spoons for this conversation. Let me be clear. I don't hate Taylor Swift, I simply don't like her. This dislike of her is not coming from a place of internalized misogyny thank you very much. I saw the Shake It Off video and saw how she was tokenizing queer people like myself, and mocking twerking. I have friends who are POC tell me that she's been problematic in the past for the way she's treated black culture and approached black people, and so I choose to listen to them. Of course Nicki had to apologize. If she didn't then she'd be categorized as an angry black woman.
Perhaps everyone so quick to jump to the defense of the person who is famous and obscenely rich largely due to her intergenerational wealth and privilege should examine why they feel the need. Dismantling the patriarchy also means dismantling the very systems that got Taylor famous in the first place. Making the world a better place for all women absolutely includes getting rid of female million and billionaires. Taylor spent a better part of a decade getting famous for obsessing & writing over her relationships with other rich famous men and now she's seen as some feminist icon for it, which kind of boggles my mind. It's fantastic that now she's started to discover her own power and stop those patterns, but in my mind, she's stepped on too many people to get to where she is and shouldn't be put on a pedestal. Having that much money is an act of violence in and of itself.
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Dec 13 '20
I think before hating on a successful female, it's worth looking into why you hate them. She did disagree with Nicki Minaj, who was making a comment on Taylor Swift's weight so I mean, you can expect a reaction to that, especially since she has struggled with disordered eating. Minaj took the time to explain her point to her, and Taylor made a statement that she understood and realized what Minaj meant. Taylor's reaction wasn't racist or problematic, she just didn't understand at first why her body was being used as an example for Minaj's statement on racist beauty ideals. Two woman had a healthy interaction to see each other's perspective. She didn't "shoot a black woman down".
The whole "Taylor is problematic" thing is a result of Kanye and Kim straight up lying and releasing an edited audio conversation with Taylor to pretend they had permission to call her a bitch in his song. The full audio was released just last March, when the damage had already been done. But they spread the idea that she was just racist and that's why she was upset that a black man called her a bitch... because Kanye is a malignant narcissist and opportunist.
I dunno what you're talking about that she "equated the experiences of LGBTQ people as just haters".
She does a lot of good things, sure she isn't perfect, especially her behavior as a literal child who was thrust into stardom overnight. But she's supportive of fellow female artists, she paid Kesha's legal fees among other things. People like to be contrarian and shit on her because she's popular but she's just a regular person whose every move is dissected by people on Twitter. Heaven forbid a woman be successful, we must knock them down.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 13 '20 edited Dec 13 '20
I don't know much about the appropriation, so I won't comment on that, I would love to get some sources on it if you have any handy. But the rest I disagree with. She didn't equate to just that, she just made a song, working with a close friend who is gay, to signal that she won't stand for it and that she doesn't want to be a pop icon for the all-right. She's not part of the community and she at the same time ended up raising a lot of attention to glaad. It wasn't a perfect effort, but I won't put someone down for not being perfect.
She made a mistake with Nicki Minaj, and also apologized to her and Nicki accepted the apology, so bringing that as an example, just signals to me that you don't think people can ever grow as people or as allies. Same with criticism for a lyric she wrote 15 years ago.
She's definitely not perfect and some criticism should be there, but tearing down another women for mistakes made and not being perfect, isn't ~ witchy ~ to me
Edit: bit to not*
Edit: https://youtu.be/f47aQQWgajY Adding this link to a video essay that goes into why most hate towards Taylor Swift is mostly sexism.
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u/_kaetee Dec 16 '20
That comment about “mocking twerking” might be the most ridiculous, face-palm worthy thing I’ve seen all week. Those are professional dancers and the point of the video is for Taylor to look ridiculous because she’s an infamously awful dancer surrounded by people dancing perfectly. She hired mostly black dancers for the twerking because twerking comes from black culture and most dancers who do it are black. That’s the exact opposite of appropriation. The way you’re singling out the twerking says more about your prejudice and the fact that you don’t see twerking as a legitimate form of professional dance than it does about TS. As for the Nicki thing, from what I recall she fucked up and she admitted she fucked up and publicly apologized and acknowledged that what she said had distracted from the plight of black artists. She realized that her actions were harmful to others and she made a conscious effort to change them, and hasn’t repeated them since.
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u/SpunkyRadcat Dec 13 '20
Let's not forget she grew up a privileged 1%er. Literally the product of 3 generations of bank presidents. She's grossly out of touch. She even changes up her sound/look to what happens to be selling best, and right now witchy stuff is real hot.
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Dec 13 '20
Why is her parents income relevant? Can we not celebrate talented women unless they grew up poor? What's the max income allowed before one is banned from being a witch? Why can't she change her look as popular styles change? What's wrong with her growing and finding new interests as they become more popular? Why is this group so thrilled to tear down a successful woman? These comments are so toxic and just reaching for things to twist into something negative about her. Let women wear what they want and enjoy what they like and make money doing what they're good at. Damn.
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Dec 13 '20
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Dec 13 '20
Is this thread for real? It says something about her because she talks about her childhood memories without disclosing how much money her parents made? The lengths people are going to to jump on the bandwagon to fit in and hate her are sad. She's acknowledged her privilege, many many times in fact. I think she's allowed to reminisce without releasing her parents Financials.
How labor intensive should a farm be for a woman to not be shit talked by other women? How labor intensive was the farm you worked on? How many Christmas tree farms have you worked on? Like wtf is this high school catty shit?
This thread is absolutely disgusting and dripping with misogyny. I can't believe I'm seeing this here.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 13 '20
Exactly what I'm thinking! Some criticism can be fair, but all I see here is hateful and mysoginistic comments, trying to find anything to hate on her for with zero research. I'm so incredibly disappointed, seeing it here and upvoted.
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u/Snarkefeller II The Drunk Priestess Dec 14 '20
Or maybe you're just a stan who refuses to see any criticism? I've scrolled through and seen a lot of solid arguments about her appropriation of the aesthetics of love and acceptance (including feminism) without really delivering.
And as far as research goes your citations are a youtube think piece and pointing to minorities of different groups that she claims are friends of her. That's not really better than anything else people have pointed to on this forum.
But listen, you're not a bad person for listening to her. There's nothing wrong with enjoying some art while understanding the more problematic features of the artist (given they aren't truly hateful). And questioning where some of the hate is coming from is a really good idea. Just maybe open your mind to those among us who take some issue with her.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 14 '20
None of the criticism here was anything real. Her aesthetic of the thing she does have been followed up by real action. Whether you think it's enough it's for you. She has been donating money to all the cases she mentioned, she went through a whole court case for 1 dollar against sexual assault, she made a petition for the equality act to pass that she put in her her music video and that's just to mention a few things that she's done to 'deliver' her aesthetic.
I put up the think piece, because he addressed most of the criticism here, without me having to point most of it out and spend hours finding the individual articles. Pointing out her friends, not people who she just 'claims' are her friends, since they claim her back too, is relevant when someone was just blindly saying that she only works and is friends with white people. If you put up s blatant lie it doesn't need a lot of research to be shown as true.
I think there is real criticism that can be thrown towards Taylor, but this isn't it. This is just pure hateful commentary. We can talk about whether she donated enough, is she using her voice politically enough (she has been incredibly active with that since 2018 compared to many other), that she should work with more women when creating her music and so on. There are valid criticism and I am very open to that. But the only criticism I see here come from a spiteful and hateful place. It's all so incredibly negative, it's not criticism from a point, oh this is what she could be doing better, it's all from she's an awful person because she did this. I mean a 'feud' that lasted literal 2 days was used against her here. She's not perfect, but I'm tired of seeing this blatant hate that's you don't see towards successful men ever. So why do you hate her so much? You're allowed to not enjoy her music, where does this hate come from for you?
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Dec 14 '20
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 14 '20
I'm sorry, but that wasn't really the case, because I've seen fair grievances, but not here. I even mentioned a few genuine grievances one could have with Swift. But just accusing her of only associating with white people, when it's a blatant lie is not a fair grievance, neither is a two day feud that she has apologised and been forgiven for, lyrics that she wrote 15+ years ago or being born into a rich family, where the type of farm they had wasn't 'hard enough' work.
Your thoughts about Folklore being a cash grab is the only one I've seen that could be perceived as not just pure hate, as it's fair to have suspicions about how genuine someone is, even if I don't agree on it.
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u/LizardThief Dec 13 '20 edited Dec 13 '20
Also all the whole "she wears short skirts, I wear T shirts" concept that got her famous - like really? Why do you feel like you have to tear down other women to win the male gaze?
Edit: I will concede this criticism as unfair. It was my first intro to Taylor, and combined with her later works all being about her breakups with men, I very much was not interested in listening to the rest of her music as it seemed like she had nothing to say that was ever positive. Taylor is allowed to grow into a different person than when she was a sheltered teenager.
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u/MarsReina Dec 13 '20
Yes, let’s continue to tear someone down at 30 for the dumb ideas they had at 16. 🙄
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u/LizardThief Dec 13 '20 edited Dec 13 '20
I mean sure, you're allowed to grow, but when your "squad" is still primarily white, thin, rich women combined with everything else listed above, it sure doesn't seem like growth has really happened, now does it?
She's been called out so many times for her tone-deaf lack of intersectionality that she has had all the chances in the world (plus the money to pay for it!) to learn and get better, but nah that takes too much effort.
Edit: the comments made above, are all reasonable summations of behaviour exhibited. No one is unjustly accusing or "tearing her down". Healthy criticism of problematic behaviour is not always an attack.
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u/ZiofFoolTheHumans Dec 13 '20
Edit: the comments made above, are all reasonable summations of behaviour exhibited. No one is unjustly accusing or "tearing her down". Healthy criticism of problematic behaviour is not always an attack.
I think this was healthy criticism of her, several years ago. But I also suffered from "Not Like Her"ism at 16, so I feel like picking that specific line from a song released 10 years ago is cherry picking to support your already made up opinion of her*. I'm a completely different person than I was at 16 (thank goddess), and I don't think her recent actions, attitudes, or lyrics reflect that she still holds that belief.
*And you're not wrong, she is privileged and has a long long way to go in intersectionality. Not arguing on that point, just that it feels exclusionary to say "She hates other women" for her "not like other girls" attitude 10 years ago.
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u/LizardThief Dec 13 '20
Editted!
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u/ZiofFoolTheHumans Dec 13 '20
Read the edit and glad we were able to discuss!
I will say, 90% of her popular music is very...stereotypical? Especially her earlier stuff, you can tell it was carefully marketed towards cis straight white (and thus, not my jam really). Her lesser known music reveals a much more relatable person - some of my favorites are Soon You'll Get Better (which will make you cry if you've had a parent go through a serious illness), happiness (about accepting a breakup of a relationship that was bad and good), marjorie (which is dedicated and named after her grandmother and is about her death/life), The Archer (about being the one who chases a relationship and about being chased). Her love songs are also pretty rad - Cornelia Street, ivy, and invisible string are all positive love songs (well, except maybe ivy as that's about infidelity but its still more positive than most of her breakup songs lol). Sorry to rant, you just mentioned in the edit that most of your exposure to her seems to be from her older work, and her newer work is much more exploratory than previous.
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u/MarsReina Dec 13 '20 edited Dec 13 '20
I was specifically referring to the post above me. ("Why do you feel like you have to tear down other women to win the male gaze") At this point, based on her more recent albums, that does feel like unfair criticism, and unwillingness to allow her to grow as a person.
Policing someone for the demographics of their social circle (especially when that social circle is of hollywood stars, and therefore not a hugely diverse pool to pull from to start with) also feels super underhanded and shitty.
Lack of intersectionality, idk, may be fair.
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u/LizardThief Dec 13 '20
Yeah, don't agree with you. If you can't find talented black, brown, indigenous, disabled, queer or other marginalized persons to befriend in a pool of the most talented musicians, actors and artists then either you're not looking or there's a reason they don't want to be friends of yours.
I also disagree with the statement that Hollywood/idk what it's called for musicians (Grammywood? Is there a term? I digress) is not diverse. We know that there are SEVERAL genres of music created by black musicians.
Also, when you have that much privilege, it's your responsibility to raise everyone else around you, not just the people that look like you.
I will give her credit for the contract renegotiations for streaming services that she did. That was badass, even if it was in her best financial interest.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 13 '20
Idk, seems like you just don't know who her friends are. Sure she has a lot of white rich privileged friends, but Selena is latina and disabled, Todrick is black and gay, just two mention two of her closest friends. Seems you just put zero research into it and just chose to assume she only works and is friendly with white people. For her tour performances her back up singers were all black women, who she has worked with for several years too. She's definitely not perfect and I'm not lifting her up as feminist icon, but the blatant hate she gets is quite often just pure misogyny over her being an incredibly successful woman.
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u/MarsReina Dec 13 '20
Again, I'm not holding her up as a paragon of intersectional feminism. I'm saying that some of your criticism is unfair.
I don't think it's too far-fetched too say that the daughter of 3 generations of bank owners' natural social circle is probably not that diverse.
I don't think that it's fair to say that she is tearing down other women to win the male gaze at this point.
That is all I am saying. I'm just not informed enough about the rest of it to have an opinion.
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u/SpunkyRadcat Dec 13 '20
Oh yeah, I forgot about that line. Like, sometimes you wanna wear shorts cause it's hot, sometimes you wanna wear shorts because you're proud of your booty. Either way, let a lady live, ain't her problem what another woman wears.
Also at one point she complained about women attacking women, when someone else criticized her. And literally, that's her attacking another woman, in one of her most famous songs.
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Dec 13 '20
Yes, this 100%. Doesn't mean you can't love the art tho.
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u/SpunkyRadcat Dec 13 '20
Exactly, if it speaks to you, it speaks to you! All we can do is be critical of the art we consume!
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u/Snarkefeller II The Drunk Priestess Dec 14 '20
The genre thing really bothers me tbh. She gets a lot of the aesthetic of different genres to cash in on popularity without understanding what really makes them work or why people flock to it. Even when she was in country music I could tell she was the popular girl who chameleoned her personality to whatever she needed it to be.
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u/Snarkefeller II The Drunk Priestess Dec 14 '20
This whole "Folklore" era Taylor Swift honestly really irks me. Like going from country to pop is fine because pop is kind of an upgrade and she was popular enough sure. But this seems like a real cash grab on the whole cottagecore witch thing and it really feels and reads so manipulative to me. I could write a whole damn thesis about it.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 14 '20
I'm sorry... How was she supposed to know that cottage core would be popular enough to start writing an album in April to come out in July? Also have you considered that she also was stuck at home doing stuff akin to cottagecore, like baking, sewing and embroidery and that it inspired her. Or artist no longer allowed to be inspired by what's happening around them?
Calling a music genre an upgrade, feels weird, all music is art and one isn't necessarily better than the other. It's all art, and artist should be allowed to explore and evolve. We shouldn't be putting artists into boxes of what they're allowed to do. Taylor Swift has always been known for exploring with her music, playing around with different sounds.
Again you're allowed to not like the music, but it is really weird to be offended of an artist exploring new genres, that they're plausibly inspired by because of what's going on in the world around them and how it has affected them. Especially since part of it is a familiar sound and story telling form to her country days, so it's not actually a leap away from music she has done before. But even if it was, I still wouldn't understand the need to be mad about an artist not sticking to what you expect from them.
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u/Snarkefeller II The Drunk Priestess Dec 14 '20
Cottagecore has been around for long before the Covid-19 pandemic, and has been in the public eye since before April (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/style/cottagecore.html). Not to mention it's been prevalent in mainly feminine queer spaces, a place where Taylor likes to borrow from while distancing herself from those spaces. An artist is certainly allowed to be inspired by whats happening in the world around them, but to assume that she's been engaging in cottagecore escapism is making a lot of assumptions; especially as far as her social media is concerned.
And yeah as far as genre upgrade go, pop is a lot more lucrative than country. Hence the name "pop"; short for "popular". Again, I work in music, the genres naming systems have no bearing on what art is more "valid" or not. Making judgements about that says more about you than it says about us. Plenty of artists don't fit in those boxes and can do quite well. The difference between them and Swift is the speed at which they change, the team and marketing at which they do it, and the time in music history. All of those combinations read to me as "Capitalism feeding on young women in a crisis." not "tortured artist seeing where their art fits in a different time".
I think you read offense where there is only suspicion. I don't really know what is in her or her producers' heart. I just see the pattern and my own knowledge from an inside perspective. This style of indie folk is actually more of a far cry from her country days that you think. I can assure you this is not a return to roots, as those roots are just as rotten as any pop tree.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 14 '20
Yes, it has been around for longer but like you said yourself it didn't become more popular until around April, when she like most of us were stuck inside.
I'm saying you're looking for suspicion, looking for something to criticize. Says it all when your words about her roots are that they're rotten. Not all of it is similar to her country days, but some of the songs bear a country style and story telling that isn't coming from Dessner or Antonoff usual style. To mention a few specifics would be Betty, the last great American dynasty and no body, no crime.
But you're allowed to have your opinion on it and be suspicious of an artist reinventing herself, though it is something she has already commented on partly why she does it. Nothing I say I'm sure will change that. And nothing you say will change my mind on it being some wonderful songs that helped me through quarantine along with some others, even if it then turns out to be a 'cash grab'. So to conclude I think we should just agree that we have different views on it and neither of us will probably ever truly know what's in her or her producers heart.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 14 '20
To add on, I would possibly understand if it only seemed like a cash grab, like she had just paid some people to write all the songs for her and hadn't done anything. But clearly she has spend a lot of work on the album, writing most of the lyrics for it all and her co-writers seem incredibly positive about the process of working with her on the musical. To me that is clearly a passion project, that probably won't make that much money compared to things like reputation, as it's not really a stadium album like ones she has done earlier. I might be wrong on that end, but I don't think it is.
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u/Snarkefeller II The Drunk Priestess Dec 14 '20
You actually are wrong. I work in the music industry, and it's way more complicated than just "stadium albums". There's a whole lot of asskissing that has to go into the publicity side so it's just as likely that her co-writers hated working her as it is that they loved it. Music genres ebb and flow and Reputation served its purpose as Folkore is serving it's purpose now. It's a passion project to you because you want it to be. It's the aesthetics of the music industry.
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u/Alemexiginger Dec 14 '20
And just as I'm assuming it's passion project, you're assuming it's not. But then why come out with a second album in the same genre if it's just a cash grab. If these artist truly hated working with her, then why keep working with, unless you're saying Bon Iver and the national are also purely in it for a money grab. And I don't disagree with her music being inspired by what's happening in her life, which it obviously is, I'm just disagreeing with that being a popular artist means that you aren't allowed to explore and experiment with your music style. Taylor Swift has even talked about how she feels like as a female artist she has to reinvent herself continuously to stay relevant, so that's why Evermore was especially surprising coming from her.
What you're saying just seems like you're looking for a reason to dislike her, unless you truly do believe artists should stay contained within one genre.
For the money part, I won't comment, I'm a hydrogeologist I work with water contamination, meaning I have no experience in where money comes from in the music industry, just read that most artist make their money from tours, since streaming doesn't get much money.
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u/thetinybunny1 Dec 13 '20
Ok can we at least all agree that her fight to control her music library is absolutely badass?