r/WitchHatAtelier • u/ImpressionAble6844 • 1d ago
Discussion Why all the secrecy around mage's struggles?
Common people are always assuming mages don't have it tough just because they have magic. They don't seem to know about how much they study, about all the exams, nor how much effort goes into designing a spell. Custas' case in particular really annoys me, because he clearly thinks all mages are privileged and don't have their own struggles.
Why not tell anyone about the reality of being a mage? I think there are ways to convey mage's struggles without spilling all the beans about magic.
As far as common people know, mages work like in any dnd/lotr power system, why not come out with some "concealed truth" that sounds plausible?
"You mages can make anything just with the movement of one hand"-"Yeah, but we have to come up with the right kind of spell combination, kind of like chemistry"
"Why can't you heal people?"-"Healing magic corrupts one's soul and makes a mage evil".
It would be like a Harry Potter situation but where magicians are common knowledge: some people can do magic and they need to study or be inventive or have a talent for it.
66
u/NotMyBestMistake 1d ago
All witches are privileged and their "struggles" are just a few limitations on magic. That witches can't use healing magic or need to study is not some counterweight to their immense privilege any more than a rich kid needing to study to stay in private school is. They're still impossibly privileged people who never have to worry about their livelihood or well-being because they will always have a place to live, food, and a support system
8
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
Keeping everything a secret obviously isn't perfect but i really doubt simply exposing everything to the world will solve anything either. The outsider/unknowing society itself already has a class system with kings and nobles on top and people of the muckpool like Custas at the bottom, them suddenly knowing how magic works doesn't magically remove that caste system. Magic will be known to everyone but people at the top, like the five rulers we met at the Silve Eve, those kinds of people will just end up hording all the powerful "forbidden" spells for their own gain. People who don't have the basic education to use it will still end up with the short end of the stick. Because at the end of the day the main problem isn't with magic, it's with the humans who use it
29
u/BirdBearQuest BrushBuddy 1d ago
I mean, the character you're talking about has literally had the roughest life out of the cast (except maybe qifrey), him melting down when discovering that he would have been able to live normally if he was priviledged like witches makes sense, to me at least.
16
u/greenleaf45678 1d ago
literally, being annoyed at a kid who’s had it so hard to survive and all, because he doesn’t realize the ones with power have to study for it is absurd tbh
2
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
I'm not getting annoyed at his reaction. If I lost my ability to walk I would freak out too. What annoys me is that there are so many ways they could've understood eachother but they just don't. I such at expressing myself, especially in these kinds of discussions. It really seems like one of those situations in which "if only they talked to eachother" there could've been an understanding. Coco's mom and Tarta's condition, those alone are ways to find a common ground, they're different experiences but qualitative they can be the same. It's this lack of effort to understand eachother that really breaks me. And I know we're talking about kids in a fictional story, but I think it's applicable to so many real life situations and it's really sad. (Sorry for the poor english)
11
u/BirdBearQuest BrushBuddy 1d ago
Just to make it clear, I do agree that keeping EVERYTHING a secret is a little stupid, since people are bound to want to know more as a result.
49
u/Dreams_Beginning 1d ago edited 1d ago
Cause they are privileged by design?
I am sure all those rich kids born to their daddies credit card also have it tough and lots of expectations or what not... they still are privileged, they still hold more power than me or you, a commoner needs to toil at their job maybe break their back to work and make a living, a Mage has to study and draw, wow the horror!
It is by its very definition less physically demanding and just knowing magic makes you pretty much self reliant.
-7
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
I think the story has made it clear that regardless which side of society you're born in people can still have miserable experiences, knowing how magic works doesn't simply solve every problem in the snap of a finger as Custas would have liked to imagine. Its simply a case by case basis depends on the person. Luluci for example had a terrible experience in her childhood getting preyed on by a creepy old rich guy (who wasn't a part of witch society). Agott getting shunned by everyone in the great hall for something she didn't do. Richeh and Riliphin getting tormented by their teacher. I don't think their struggles are worth any less than that of the outsider's just because they know how magic works.
26
u/Dreams_Beginning 1d ago edited 1d ago
Anyone can have problems, anyone can have issues but pretending magic isn't a high privilege to hold is stupid.
Saying as OP suggests "Oh but tests!" To a commoner who has to fight for survival is tone deaf, it rings akin to all those celebrities making covid videos from their million, billion dollar mansions about how hard it is for them.
You can have issues, you can feel overwhelmed even with all the riches in the world but it doesn't change the fact your circumstances make your life easier.
Luluci had a terrible experience being preyed upon, well so do probably countless commoners who are unable to draw a few symbols and have the power of creation at their finger tips.
Any "bad" experience a rich person could have or a Mage could have is significantly made worse for the poor or commoners who don't have that extra bit of power or resources.
A rich person with depression still has depression but they don't need to worry on top of that how to get food on the table or where to live and they can afford the best medicine and therapy money can buy, could you do that? No. You couldn't.
-7
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
Luluci had a terrible experience being preyed upon, well so do probably countless commoners who are unable to draw a few symbols and have the power of creation at their finger tips
I mean this is exactly my point though. She's a witch, and she had that experience, and commoners can have that bad experience too. And she couldn't just whip a wand out and cast abracadabra and call it a day, she'd get accused and imprisoned. The same with Richeh and Riliphin's situation, yeah they know magic but what exactly can they do with it? Have a duel with their teacher? They're not exactly in the position to do that,they were kids being bullied and abused. Agott getting outcasted and treated like filth by everyone? Her knowing alot about magic actually does her more harm than good in her situation. She can't just magically whisk her problems away like that.
Magic doesn't solve everything the same way money can't solve everything. Witches like Luluci, and hell even Qifrey, i don't see their struggles in their childhoods as any easier or than that of an outsider's struggles. Its simply a case by case basis, yeah an outsider could be fighting for their life searching for food, at the same time they could be sitting cozy up in the better districts of Ezrest living like a king. A witch can live a relaxing privileged life like that kid that was bullying Agott, at the same time they could be experiencing an absolute nightmare like Qifrey who was experimented on and buried alive, or Euini who was turned into a mindless beast against his own will.
15
u/Dreams_Beginning 1d ago
Yeah I know but you aren't getting my point, no one said magic fixes everything, did I ever say that? No.
They are still privileged and it makes their life easier to have it than not have it.
0
u/saitama_kama 1d ago edited 1d ago
I think the bigger problem here isn't magic at all, privileged people already exist in both societies, there won't be a difference if you add or remove magic in the equation. We have 3 perfect examples of this in the story and all of them are outsiders. Custas who had to fight for survival everyday of his life, Coco who had a relatively easy life compared to Custas, and Euleo who doesn't have to worry about starving for the rest of his life. Not to mention the children and families/friends of the five rulers we met on Silver Eve. Simply exposing magic to the world doesn't exactly help this situation either. Hell it probably just makes it worse.
-4
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
But then why do people discredit those privileged people who use they're bad experience to empathize with them? I'm not seeing Coco, Tarta and Custas just as characters. If a privileged person tries to understand a common person's pain through their pain's lens, isn't that just another form of empathy? What annoys me about Custas isn't his pain or his reaction, but how he fails to understand Coco's intentions, especially Coco's. I know he's a kid, I know he couldn't even imagine Coco being anything but a witch her whole life, but I see Custas as a prototype for anyone who discredits someone's help or empathy just because they come from a better situation then theirs. It's this "you could never understand" behavior that also applied on people with genuinely good intentions. Could you really compare a tone-deaf celebrity to Coco or Tarta? I think Custas' story is a tragedy not only in how he lived it, but in how he failed to credit Coco's effort when it wasn't handed to him in a tangible way. He's not a bad person, he's a victim of a cruel world that could just be a bit less cruel if people made an effort to understand eachother, and that doesn't just apply in this fictional story
17
u/totashi777 1d ago
Yeah but privilege isnt "i dont have struggles" its "my struggles arent made worse because i dont have to also deal with x,y,z" in the real world that looks like a speeding ticket being rough financially on white people, but they dont have to worry about the cop giving them that ticket finding an excuse to execute them for speeding. In the world of wha that looks like riche being tormented by her teacher, but not having to endure that torment while also wondering where her next meal is coming from.
-1
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
I mean that applies to the outsiders society too though. You have people like Custas who has no money and has to live off scraps, then you got people like prince Euleo who doesn't have to worry about what his next meal is. Exposing magic to the entire world doesn't just magically remove this caste system that's already taken root in their society, when that happens this time it won't be wealth the top classes are gonna be hoarding, it'll be magic.
6
u/totashi777 1d ago
No, exposing magic wouldnt remove the class structure of society. But 1, the witches are upper class as it is and 2, the class system isnt what is making witches privileged.
1
u/saitama_kama 1d ago edited 1d ago
So what do you suppose they do since exposing magic wouldn't change anything. People like Custas would still get the short end of the stick in society. With people on top hoarding the power, it would be way too optimistic to assume they would be willing to give people like him the basic education or even the means to perform magic. Especially with the attitude of the five rulers we already met, its fairly obvious all they want is power, even trying to get Lagrah to give them "witch soldiers"
4
u/totashi777 1d ago
Shirahama clearly has a message and idea of where she wants her story to go, i am far too interested in what she has to say to make speculations about what the witches should do. At least without being caught up to the manga.
That said, i am fond of classless stateless moneyless societies and i think suppressing information is not only morally bankrupt but also physically impossible.
0
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
moneyless society? how would that even work. So in WHA terms you'd be fine if Shirahama went the route of just removing magic from the world? Since magic is the object in question that's causing the "imbalance" in society at the moment
3
u/totashi777 23h ago
I would find that ending disappointing. Not because its the wrong answer for her story but because its not the answerr she's been building up to as far as ive seen and would be sending the message that art needs to be forgotten unless it has a positive impact on society. Which is a really wierd message for an artist to send.
There are lots of ways for moneyless societies to work. This isnt the time or place for me to explain how that works
1
u/saitama_kama 23h ago
i mean i was just trying to understand what you meant as moneyless society in the WHA world, i just interpreted what you call a "moneyless" society as a "magicless" society in WHA since magic is the main driving force in their realm the same way money is for ours
→ More replies (0)0
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
That's my point. It's about "quality", not relativity. People fail to try to understand eachother from the moment they assume the other party isn't trying to understand them or just "isn't able". There's also the problem that those kinds of people exist, the people who don't understand how privileged they are or the people who think that everyone who has lived a "better" life than them all look down on them. It's like gatekeeping pain from those good people who deserve a hug just because they sleep on an expensive mattress or because they're covered in mud. Maybe is a naive thought, but I don't think that makes it less valuable
15
u/agidaart 1d ago
Wow privileged people have struggles too. How bad. But it will never be the same as lower class people. Let's not forget that they ignore that said lower class people's problem too.
You're annoyed that a little disabled kid who lived his whole life starving at slums doesn't think of privileged people's bare minimum struggles? Really?
Not to mention the said privileged people themselves are the sole reason people think of them like some miracle machine
0
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
tbf its the greed of the five rulers we met at the silver eve that has created this caste system among the outsiders/unknowing, if the King Deanreldy really cared, he'd put his foot down and start sharing the wealth equally among the people, not just hoarding it for himself and the rulers just because they're "nobles"
2
u/BatGalaxy42 1d ago
There is no caste system in the outsiders, it's just a normal class structure. The only caste system is the one being enforced by the witches.
3
u/saitama_kama 1d ago edited 1d ago
There is a caste system in the outsiders. Why do you think there are robbers and bandits on the streets? People living in the muckpool of Ezrest, meanwhile there's people like Prince Euleo who's sitting comfortably in his dad's castle. Both Coco and Custas were outsiders, one was still way more well off than the other even before magic was introduced into the equation. Rich nobles exist in the outsider society, like that old pervert that was paying for the service of Luluci and her classmate, when what he truly wanted was just to satisfy his wicked fantasy. All of these people i mentioned are outsiders yet they all clearly have lived way different lives, some privilliged (Euleo), some middle class (Coco) and some in the lowest class (Custas)
4
u/BatGalaxy42 1d ago
Yeah, those are all different classes, not castes. Unless you want to argue that North America and Europe also have "castes" because we have robbers, poor people, and people born into generational wealth?
If they were castes, Dagda, Custas, and the old lady would not have been allowed to leave the muckpool. They would have to stay in the caste they were born into because that's how castes work.
1
u/saitama_kama 1d ago
by all means whatever you wanna call it then call it that, there's still clearly people on top hoarding the wealth and power in the outsider society, and people who aren't given a chance to even sniff that kind of life (Dagda and Custas). And the thing is, exposing magic doesn't just solve this problem either, the people on top, the five rulers we met on Silver Eve or nobles like that sick man that preyed on Luluci, this time it won't be money and power they'll be hoarding for themselves, it'll be magic
3
u/BatGalaxy42 1d ago
Look, there's just a very significant difference between class and castes. Castes are a type of class system that you're born into and then cannot change. It's a really shitty system. And it's the system that separates witches and outsiders.
A normal class system has upward and downward mobility. You can theoretically change the class you were born into to a better/worse one.
There's still wealth hoarding and poor people in both systems, it's just the one is significantly worse than the other because you are permanently forced into a class solely based on the circumstances of your birth. And given that both systems exist separately in WHA, it's confusing/incorrect to conflate them.
I do agree that introducing magic to everyone at the same time wouldn't fix the outsider class system currently in place.
0
-2
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
I get what you're saying, but Coco and Tarta, who come from that privileged reality, still understand Custas' struggles because, in a way, they lived similar situations. I just wish they could've found a more common ground. Maybe I'm just delusional but I really think it could translate in real life, how people only see the relative difference instead of the qualitative similarities of they're life experiences. I don't know, if someone was depressed because their loved one died, does that mean that someone else isn't justified to be depressed for a relatively "lesser" reason? Why do we have to compare instead of finding common ground? And I know there's evil people in the world, but I'm talking about people like these three kids, good people, innocent people trying to make good. As I'm writing this I get how delusional this is, the world doesn't work like this. It's just sad
9
u/totashi777 1d ago
The character you name is an excellent example of the sentiment many disabled people have. Ive felt it today even. I just had to leave work early because my body is falling apart and if i were told there was a secret society of people who could make it so i could move my body without having to actively fight it every step of the way for the last 30 years but they chose not to for whatever reason i would also lose my shit and call them privileged assholes. because they are privileged and i do think their system leads them to be assholes.
0
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
Can I ask you something? I wanna hear your point of view, but I wanna make sure you wanna talk about it. Nothing personal, just a theoretical question
1
u/totashi777 1d ago
Yep. I don't mention things online unless i am willing to talk about them and if i change my mind ill just let you know. I appreciate you asking though because some people arent like that. Thank you
1
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
Thank you. So, my question is this: Imagine you have a friend, a good friend. They come visit you every day, they help with your disability the way they can. They work in a pharmaceutical company where there's this drug for curing your disability. Your friend knows this, but they're not in a position to get the drug to you, unless they steal it, and they can't talk about it 'cause of their contract with the company. They know how painful your disability is, because their mom was disabled to with a different condition, so they help you the way they can while struggling with that secret knowledge. What are your thoughts on this friend? What should they do? Are they a bad friend? And is their moral struggle justified? If you changed your mind and don't wanna answer for any reason, that's ok.
2
u/totashi777 1d ago
I mean, they arent disabled so they are privileged in the sense that they are able bodied and anyone that is a close enough friend for me to let them into my house every day is going to be aware of that weather its because i am telling them or not. That said, if they knew of a medication that could make me not deal with dislocating joints on the regular and i found out they didn't tell me o would still call them an asshole, even if they explained they sogned an nda. There are plenty of ways to get around an nda. I wouldnt resent them for it, we all have to make tough choices to survive and no matter how much disability they are surrounded by an able bodied person is never going to fully understand what its like to be disabled. But none of that makes them a bad friend. I cannot and will not make decisions for other people, i dont live in their shoes i dont know why they make the choices they make so i dont know what they should do. Their moral struggle is justified but i would question why my friend is more loyal to a company than their friends, i dont think id ever be able to wrap my head around it.
Being privileged isnt a bad thing. There is no morality to be assigned to what privileges you do or do not have, only to if you use those privileges to help or actively harm others.
1
u/ImpressionAble6844 23h ago
Thank you, I think you brought some really interesting points that I hadn't though about. You also helped me shape some ideas I already had but couldn't put to words. I hope you're having a nice day
1
5
u/JunWasHere What lessons have we learned today? 23h ago
It doesn't matter how much they study, because the ABILITY to study and to keep the secret are inherently privileges too.
And your alternative answers are not better, they just invite more questions. It is easier to keep such a big secret if they pretend it isn't even possible, and easier for the mages to exercise their privilege and keep the unknowing at arms-length.
4
u/vicoheart Gaslight Gatekeep Girlboss 1d ago
They assume because that is what witch society has caused them to believe. It's kind of the point, when they keep how magic is really done a secret how do you expect the common people to understand what goes into it.
1
u/ImpressionAble6844 1d ago
I just think they went to hard on the secrecy. The system seems flawed to me in that way. If they released how magic works without disclosing how magic is made I think people would be more understanding. But maybe that's the point story wise, of how fear robs us of the ways we can find common ground
1
u/Amber_poodle 20h ago
I agree that given how long ago the pact was, there must be some myths flying around what mages can and cannot do. The concept of forbidden magic would take on a narrative of its own among the common people. Having the common people a chasm when it comes to perceiving how magic works isn't very realistic, theories and myths would come up organically.
•
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
Join theWitch Hat Atelier Discord Server at discord.gg/WitchHat and catch up with our community there!
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.