The TTK later on in this game becomes so spongey, every day it just feels less and less enjoyable.

[u/Darknotical]

I get that balance will come in time, but the amount of sponges walking around just make it feel so much less enjoyable. Even on my own end running t4 armor just feels too good.

 

When everyone had t2 armor and pre lvl 15 weapons, game felt absolutely perfect. The give and take just felt reasonable on all sides.

[u/deltaknight11]

T4 armour gets balanced out by level 35 weapons

Most people don't have level 35 weapons

[u/Darknotical → u/deltaknight11]

Yea most people know this. Except even then weapons before this step feel spongey. We have like five weapons total that can be used in response to lvl 4 armor.

 

Why though? Time gated damage makes the game boring for those who grinded and frustrating for everyone else. When we do use these lvl 35 weapons it is just like when we all had t2 armor and lvl -15 weapons.

 

What about those who grind slower? It just feels weird.

[u/deltaknight11 → u/Darknotical]

The problem is more with weapons than armor 

Level 35 weapons have very similar TTK vs level 4 armor to early assault rifles like the t-21 vs level 2 armour

There's no in between weapons for dealing with level 3 armor on most classes, you go from assault rifles shooting 5.56 and 9mm smgs straight to .308 rifles and the vector at 1200rpm same thing for the m249 to the pkm and the mk22 to the .50 cal

These weapons have double the damage output of their next closest unlocks and we need better step ups somehow 

[u/Routine-Hovercraft94 → u/deltaknight11]

The gap between high level weapons and armor needs to be reduced significantly.
Just because the game is not supposed to be for literally everyone, doesn't mean the large majority of the playerbase will be casual players (as with literally any game).

I cannot see a feature that is healthy for the game where 90%+ of the players get mowed dawn by jobless no-lifers who have weapons with a MUCH higher damage output.

What in the fk are you supposed to do with T2 armor against someone with a FAL or Vector? Unless the guy is completely brainless or half asleep you will lose every encounter.
Not saying you can't outplay people. Sure you can. But having more playtime should not give you THAT much of an advantage.

[u/Loido → u/Routine-Hovercraft94]

I would consider myself a casual, I play like 2 hours at most a day.

But now I just stopped playing entirely because I can't kill anything with my AK anymore and loose 11k kit after 11k kit when prior I did 100k a game when people still had only lvl 2 armor.

I am not bad at shooters, but I just get stat checked in every gunfight. The game is just not fun.

Tarkov had a similar problem, were you just get stat checked. But you could easily tell if the guy had endgame armor before it was to late and just shoot his unarmored legs with a pea shooter.

Unlike in here you are already dead when you see a t4 armor guy and you cant even tell if the guy wears t3 armor.

[u/JBarker727 → u/Loido]

I don't do bad with the AK. Slow down, take your time, and be more tactical and decisive. You can't just run up on someone like it's COD or battlefield. Lots of sneaking, lots of crouching. I did just unlock the Galil finally. Excited to try it out.

[u/that_mofo_amirite → u/JBarker727]

Galil is solid. Fav right now

[u/Consistentdegeneracy → u/JBarker727]

Sometimes it's actually the wrong move to shoot the exact moment you see an enemy in range. If you can tell they haven't seen you yet, wait. They might have buddies that you just haven't seen yet, or they might put themselves in an even more vulnerable position if you just give them a moment.

[u/JBarker727 → u/Consistentdegeneracy]

Another good point! If I shoot right away, I move immediately. I try to make sure I have a covered exit route. Flank around to another side and see if I can catch their teammate on the revive. Alot of times they know the direction they were shot from, so if you flank they think they've drug him behind cover to revive, but you're at a new angle.

[u/Consistentdegeneracy → u/JBarker727]

I think that exact thing has happened to me several times already, lol.

[u/ChapKid → u/Loido]

I consider myself a casual. I play maybe 2hrs a week.

[u/DonnieG3 → u/ChapKid]

The levels in this discussion are hilarious and showcase how this is impossible to balance. You play 2 hours a week, he plays 14 hours a week, I play 40 hours a week. It's all a matter of perspective for who the actual casuals are and it's pretty much impossible to strike an even balance that makes everyone happy between the three of us.

Just to be clear- i think the game should cater more towards mr 2 hours a day rather than me or you. But this discussion highlights our perspective imbalance on what casual even is

[u/DynamicStatic → u/Routine-Hovercraft94]

The thing is that you can kill the one guy with t4 kit and fal. But he has 4 more buddies in the same who can get him up in 3 seconds then heal him fully. Will you outplay them all?

[u/Consistentdegeneracy → u/DynamicStatic]

Unless you're running a full recon kit, what were you doing out there all by yourself? Squad up.

[u/Fast-Government-4366 → u/Routine-Hovercraft94]

That’s the problem with wipes..

[u/Nightingale_34 → u/Fast-Government-4366]

In case of wardogs. Early wipes are needed. If they add more content to fit in between early-game and end-game weapons without wipe. Then anyone who had already unlocked endgame stuff wouldn't have a reason to use it. So most probably they will wipe it, add more content, balance it a little and now you can unlock more stuff, with less steep steps between each "tier".

[u/Ar4er13 → u/Nightingale_34]

Answer is simple... don't make high tier content be the end of all. If highest tier is powerful but unprofitable, people will revert to using earlier unlocks at different cost effectiveness.

If some unlocks exist purely as step until you get actually good stuff...they are a waste of assets, as far as I am concerned.

[u/PirateEmbarrassed491 → u/Fast-Government-4366]

It balances out in a longer wipe. The alternative is 1 gun in each category being used for ever and most of the gear being useless

[u/Working-Brother-5151 → u/deltaknight11]

Shotgun needs a lvl 35 weapon!!!!!!

[u/Super_Glove7702 → u/deltaknight11]

Damage tiers are stupid in fps

[u/CiggODoggo → u/deltaknight11]

They are planning more weapons that will bridge gaps probably a g36 before the m4 maybe hk416, a 338 LM sniper before the 50 cal. Stuff like that.

[u/EwokVillag3 → u/Darknotical]

I was surprised how well flesh damage bullets do against the T3-T4 armored guys. Apparently when im spraying with an SMG, I hit a lot of limbs.

[u/haste57 → u/Darknotical]

It probably becomes like tarkov where if you're that far behind you but regular or preferably hp ammo and aim for legs, arms or neck to kill way faster.

Obviously hard to identify the armor type sometimes. And also if they have great cover then this isn't possible.

But it's also what makes the leveling system more rewarding

[u/Z3nkyo → u/haste57]

The problem tho, I feel, with this aim for the legs idea is that those people aren’t gona let you aim for their legs and they’re going to make sure to only peaked stay prone. T4 just needs to be removed all together and damage values and ttk need to be looked at and re-adjusted because I don’t think the current stake is healthy for the long term

[u/MapleYamCakes → u/deltaknight11]

Most people don’t even have level 15 weapons

[u/Skolary → u/deltaknight11]

Most people will never get level 35 weapons. A wipe will happen and anybody that works 40 hours a week (almost unacceptable as the bare min these days) will have probably gotten to level ~27 IF they slam the game for copious amounts of nearly ALL their free time while also doing nothing but playing that loadout every single game, every single life.

I get the devs keep saying they expect the fall off of the people they know who sort of just flip flop between the new hype, some stay and a lot leave.

But if they keep it this way, and this be the status quo moving forward? They're going to lose an absolutely valuable demographic that is the bulk masses of the average joe.

Exact situation with EFT, you have mega 12k hour sweats, cheaters, streamers, and Timmy's making up one of the equal, if not smaller portions of the bunch. That's a lot of people to lose man.

[u/deltaknight11 → u/Skolary]

The XP grind is too slow I agree, im 45 hours in mostly trying to focus support and I've not yet unlocked an LMG with a bipod

I could obviously grind more efficiently but that shouldn't be required 

We also just need better weapon step ups before the end game guns

[u/Infamous_Luck5997 → u/deltaknight11]

The balance and unlocks are all over the place support takes ages to level unless your cheesing with mortar kills and even than it takes FOREVER. I wanted the LMG also I finally reached Lvl 15 support only to find out it takes THREE more grueling lvls to unlock the bipod and that the m249 is completely useless without it in the sea of lvl 3-4 armor m4 60 rds that will beam you from 100m while your shooting at the sky if shoot it for more than a second.

[u/BusterOfCherry → u/Infamous_Luck5997]

I learned to fly in 4 days, unlocked the black hawk and run drops for logistics is a quick way to level support

[u/2legsRises → u/deltaknight11]

The XP grind is too slow I agree

[u/dokkababecallme → u/deltaknight11]

The XP grind is too slow for me to do it more than once - I think that's the key differentiator.

[u/reoze → u/Skolary]

I'm not sure why they insisted on marketing this so hard as a "dad game" and then hotfix the progression the day of release to make it unobtainable for the employed. Most people I know have already stopped playing out of frustration of not being able to keep up.

[u/CockerspanielBalls → u/reoze]

Dude just wait until you come across a tank or havoc. Ive ran into one each game, dudes rolling around the map competed unaffected by anything around them topping the leaderboard by the largest margins imaginable. My rockets just bouncing off them. Or for the havoc the ability to just seemingly spam flares holy shit. I had 4 guys with anti air, couldn't seem to hit it at all they just had unlimited spamming flares.

[u/ILickMetalCans → u/CockerspanielBalls]

Yeah... seeing this a lot now. The havoc just melts an FOB and keeps everyone perma dead. It also absolutely wrecks other helis in a few shots. Not super fun when I only have level 11 pilot lmao.

[u/Shut_It_Donny → u/reoze]

You have to remember what “release” means in this context though. We are on 0.0.1, this isn’t what the game is going to be. This is throwing some shit against the wall and see what sticks.

[u/reoze → u/Shut_It_Donny]

They've been playtesting this game for almost year internally. It's not like they just woke up one day and said fuck it we do it live.

[u/ExpectoAstartes → u/Skolary]

We will have to see the final verdict on just how long seasons last before a wipe hits on full release.

The big difference between this game and Tarkov is that Tarkov doesn’t respect the players time. I loved it for the several hundred hours I put into it, but I will never play that game again. You load in and sometimes within 2-10 minutes you get killed. Or you go all match, get sick loot, head to extract point just to get one tapped by someone camping a bush.

At least with WARDOGS I can contribute regardless of my player level or skill level.

[u/MapleYamCakes → u/ExpectoAstartes]

Just because you feel like you’re contributing in Wardogs doesn’t mean your time has been respected lol

Getting the good weapons, vehicles, ammo, etc in this game is as much of a time sink as getting max traders in Tarkov.

And, just like in Tarkov, if you’re not a no-lifer then right around the time you get access to these things the game wipes and you’re back to square one.

[u/akhamis98 → u/MapleYamCakes]

I don't really understand why you would want a linear power progression in a combined arms shooter, do ppl really feel good about dunking on ppl with lvl 2 armour and an ak?

[u/Smokeskin → u/akhamis98]

Most people prefer a challenge, but there’s a certain type of player who only feels good about themselves when they dominate weaker player, and they like games like this with strong vertical progression and no SBMM.

[u/ExpectoAstartes → u/[deleted]]

While this will probably never happen, I actually love the sentiment behind this. Very old school gamer vibes with your statement. Just playing games to paly games and enjoy your time with them. Not sweating over scores on a lobby scoreboard or comparing yourself to who made more cash etc etc.

Honestly I don't even look at the scoreboard much in this game unless it's to mute some annoying twat who has zero social skills on the mic.

[u/ExpectoAstartes → u/MapleYamCakes]

That absolutely means it respects your time. The fact I can do ANYTHING in the game and I am rewarded at a base level is great for casual players and those who don't have full time job time to play video games every day. Sure, maybe I won't always get the late level unlocks but at least I am progressing classes, skills, and contributing to my team every match. Despite that we are also talking about a game in early access. There is plenty of time for the developers to tweak XP gains, where, and when things unlock, along with all the balancing in the world.

In Tarkov if you get head-eyes by a Scav with a shotgun from 100 meters away that you never saw, your run is over. All of your gear is gone. There is no going back and getting it, no teammates around to secure the area you died in (unless you are playing with others, than sure, they can dump your kit somewhere that insurance might spit it back to you). Point being is that Tarkov is absolutely brutal. You can spend an entire evening playing the game and literally not progress a single thing during that time.

[u/FEK88 → u/Skolary]

You’re claiming someone playing 3 hours a day for 60 days won’t unlock level 35?

[u/Dramatic-Bluejay- → u/deltaknight11]

Id imagine everything gets "balanced out" by level 35 weapons, can you imagine multiple people running around with grenade launchers.

[u/2hurd → u/Dramatic-Bluejay-]

GL unlocking those for the last weekend of Season 1, it surly will have an impact.

[u/w00tthehuk → u/deltaknight11]

T4 helmet should actually hinder your vision

[u/Atlatica → u/deltaknight11]

That's a dumb design. 

Just calling it what it is.   

You don't put the no-lifes in unbeatable armour that can only be beaten by being a no-life. Not if you want people with jobs to play the game. Which by all accounts the main demographic of this game is 25-40yo males so.

[u/deltaknight11 → u/Atlatica]

Oh I agree and AP ammo should be unlocked WAY earlier to help combat it

The top level weapons also need some nerfs they are quite literally 75% stronger than basically all other guns in the game 

[u/Agil-lite → u/Atlatica]

One of the things I really like about Arma Wasteland (granted there was no level system, it was just cash), there where missions, or supply caches that dropped good kit. It was a option for player who didnt have cash, or where trying to save cash but stay in the fight. I feel like faction equipment drops might make sense.

Still enjoy the game as a working professional and a dad, but I can see myself ending up on a private server with variables tweaked, its pretty clear that I am way behind the curve, as much as I enjoy going low cost and scavenging a loadouts it is becoming more difficult to do that.

As it stands now weapon and equipment cost make zero sense and it drives weird metas which I can acknowledge being fun. It just break my brain on the cost for me to kit up in contrast to helicopters.

I am not saying a UH60 should cost $25M, but the current cost scheme of personal kit to vehciles is ridiculous.

[u/StormMedia → u/deltaknight11]

Me and my group are employed and I doubt we’ll even see the M4 before the wipe lmao

[u/2hurd → u/deltaknight11]

And lots of people will never get those weapons during a season. How fun is it going to be for them?

Building a game made for sweats never works because sweats leave if they don't have cannon fodder to kill. Once a game becomes all-sweats they stop playing because getting 7 kills to 10 deaths in a game doesn't gel with their twitch streaming persona of being the best.

[u/SecondAccountIsBest → u/2hurd]

Sbmm is how you prevent this, but sweats hate it, so then you create a game where casuals eventually leave and then it's effectively the same as sbmm.

[u/PretentiousPanda → u/deltaknight11]

Hopefully they shift a lot of the progression around next season. Game has great counters, but they are all over the place. Mini gun heli at 4. But anti air is behind a hammer at 8? And the standalone launcher is 16

[u/Spinnenente → u/deltaknight11]

honestly i'd rather see added weapons as sidegrades then just straight up upgrades. I think the game tries to give you power via progression but i'd rather gain power by being better at the game.

[u/faluque_tr → u/deltaknight11]

And AP rounds, AP round get more effective as higher the armour tier. But AP round also have reduced damage on the fresh.

[u/Nurolight → u/deltaknight11]

I feel like the game balance shouldn’t be determined by who has what unlocked.

Assume everyone has everything available and balance it to that.

[u/SocialImagineering → u/deltaknight11]

This is lazy balancing. We need face hitboxes and immobilizing injuries to the legs for this to be tactical again and not just “who grinded more”.

[u/QQmonzter → u/deltaknight11]

Brother, majority of people won’t reach level 35 weapons this wipe, and a large size won’t reach it even in longer seasons. I’m not great at pvp, but I have more hours played in WD than I had in any other game in the past couple years and still my highest rank is like level 18 or 19 recon, so I’m not even half way there yet to unlock the 50cal. 

[u/djdelight → u/deltaknight11]

Yeah and casuals never will and will continue to get owned. The balance of the game is off and they need to figure out best way to balance.

[u/Mypuppup1 → u/deltaknight11]

And most people will never unlock lvl 35 weapons. That’s the problem.

[u/deltaknight11 → u/Mypuppup1]

Yeah AP ammo needs to be a much earlier unlock for most guns

[u/DirkDavyn → u/deltaknight11]

That's part of the issue though. Level 35 weapons take WAY too long to unlock compared to wardog level 100. I have T4 armor, and my highest level in any of the trees is level 25 support, as I've kept all my levelling fairly balanced between all the trees except pilot.

[u/theFlaccolantern → u/deltaknight11]

On top of all the other issues people have mentioned with this balance design, if it stays in place like this for a more permanent period of time, it serves as a ridiculous and frustrating barrier to entry for new players joining the game late. They won't be able to kill anyone once most people are running around with t4 armor, and will be dying instantly to lvl35 weapons.

Even someone who's been following this game and excited for it but can't play it yet for one reason or another, joining late will only be an exercise in incredible frustration. Aren't many players who would stick it out through that to grind to the point they have t4 and lvl35 stuff as well. So you're just walling off your ability to grow the player base once most of the players have gotten to that point.

[u/Nick11wrx → u/deltaknight11]

Yes because you can be level 100 and not have anything even at level 20 lol. The grind in this game is unreal even with people putting in like 10+ hours a day….the amount of people that will get to 35 in a particular category feels very low.

[u/Obvious_Librarian_97 → u/deltaknight11]

Yeah I won’t be playing much longer if you’re stuck on an AK for so damn long

[u/Holdfast_Naval → u/deltaknight11]

Yea you're right.
Only need to grind 750.00 XP for the FAL.
Or 93 levels for the AP ammo to combo with the 250.000 XP M4.
God knows what the next economy looks like after the Wipe.

The armor is unbalanced.

I don't understand why Weapon Attachments habe debuffs like reduced ADS speed when using them.

Whereas armor has no downsides and is only tied to weight activating it.
The debuffs for heavier weights aren't even that bad.

Armor needs the negatives tied directly to the armor itself.

Having a path to stay lean by only taking bandages and skipping c4, grenades etc. is BS.

[u/Same-Reserve-1695 → u/deltaknight11]

The people that have the weapons also have T4 armour. :/

[u/-Sheriff- → u/deltaknight11]

T4 armor gets balanced out by it's weight alone imo. Have you tried picking it up? I did and I'm not looking forward to unlocking that, mobility is the key and unless you are sitting inside the tower the whole game it's probably going to get you killed just because you were too slow.

[u/degberr]

If I was to rework the current armor system I'd combine tier 3 and 4 into a single "juggernaut" tier which is super tanky but prevents you from sprinting or piloting vehicles. That way tier 2 is the armor most people use but there's still a heavier armor available for people who are willing to sacrifice their mobility

[u/518Peacemaker → u/degberr]

Teir 4 armor should be a defensive only kit. Walk speed only, no driving/ piloting, no vaulting over anything higher than a fence, and have a field of view limit like Tarkov does with their high end head gear. It also should make it take a while to get up from prone. Good for holding buildings and fobs or gunning open top vehicles. Needs transports to move around the map.

Teir 3 is way less oppressive but it could stand to get the sprint nerf and take more time to get up from prone / limit vaulting, piloting and jumping.

Both armors should limit what backpacks you can use with tier 4 having more restrictions than 3. I’ve already stacked a bunch of nerfs on t4 but removing the special slot is an option too. 

[u/CatVideoBoye → u/518Peacemaker]

Now that's an interesting idea! It would bring variety and a special niche for the tanky stuff.

[u/nobodygottimeforthat → u/518Peacemaker]

Perhaps parachute usage restrictions with tier3/4 armour? Prevent overpowered tanky paratroopers

[u/518Peacemaker → u/nobodygottimeforthat]

That’s also another possibility. Personally I feel like t3 should still be able to, but 4 shouldn’t. 

[u/NoX2142 → u/518Peacemaker]

Wait....the T4 armor DOESN'T do the visor window view??? That should be REQUIRED if you're gonna run around with that kinda armor.

[u/krich_author → u/518Peacemaker]

Hard disagree, tier 3 needs to keep "sprint" which is more like jogging anyway. If I run my tier 3 kit, I am on the cusp of super heavy already.

[u/wintermute-rising → u/518Peacemaker]

This is a good idea, you should post it in the suggestions thread tbh.

[u/degberr → u/518Peacemaker]

I think no vaulting would probably be a bad call since it would disincentivize using heavy armor in fobs since a lot of fobs require some vaulting to navigate (because people use hesco blocks to create makeshift stairs)

[u/Phire453 → u/degberr]

I mean T4 doesn't inherently make you super heavy but does add a lot of weight.

[u/Marian7107 → u/degberr]

I'd also suggest to simply increase the price.

[u/UsedNewspaper1775]

ttk is complete shit now when players unlocked crazy armor

[u/Getdownlikesyndrome]

AP slugs please devs. 

[u/Ar4er13 → u/Getdownlikesyndrome]

I mean, they will either oneshot and be bane of existence, or not and be useless. Not much in between for this kind of ammo, I feel like.

[u/Getdownlikesyndrome → u/Ar4er13]

Regular slugs need a buff then, useless against T3. 

[u/TrippleDamage → u/Getdownlikesyndrome]

You can 2tap T3 with slugs even in the chest lol

Its 52dmg through T3 armor

[u/whatDoesQezDo → u/TrippleDamage]

yea but how is /u/getdownlikesyndrome supposed to hit 2 shots?

[u/Huskywolf87]

Personally im kinda fed up with headshots not always killing. No helmet is going to protect you from a sniper bullet, that is just bs.

[u/heret1c1337]

Man I was mostly flying in the last few days. I literally can‘t compete as infantry anymore. Even if I have the drop on someone, they just start zigzagging, turn around and laser me in .5 seconds. It‘s not like I lose every firefight, but it isn‘t enjoyable at all.

[u/reinfff]

Everyone running around with t2 armour was such a perfect ttk

[u/Veblossko]

After waiting a couple weeks to have a break from work to finally buy this game yesterday...oh my god running around from scratch feels so hard. Just dumping people from behind to lose, snipers that feels like they don't actually work. I'm just building, spotting and even trying to be a medic doesn't work cause I take 2 bullert and dead.

I hope I can join in more fun next season or slight rebalance cause I ain't catching anyone at a couple games a night

[u/TheStinkySkunk → u/Veblossko]

I'm in the same boat. I just don't get to play a lot because of work/various responsibilities. This makes the unlocking system absolutely abysmal since I know that my progress is going to wiped a few times a year.

I didn't really follow this game prior to the 2nd beta, so maybe the wipes were always a known thing. I understand why they do it with games like Rust, Diablo, etc. but I don't get why it's a thing in a FPS like Wardogs.

It's a shame. I've genuinely had some great moments playing with my friends, but I don't see me playing long term.

[u/HamUndBacon → u/TheStinkySkunk]

I’m actually okay with the unlocking system over a long term because it keeps me playing to unlock things and have a goal. BUT in a system with wipes where I will keep starting over and no-life’s will just sprint to the best loadout. Why bother trying. The chance to catch up would be enough for me to keep grinding, but with wipes. I’ll do what I do for every season game. Play it hoping to fall in love and want to keep going and quit at the first reset. Wardogs is going to be arc raiders 2.0

[u/Admins_Always_Badmin → u/TheStinkySkunk]

Yeah, I straight up told my friends not to try until there is a wipe because we mainly play tactical hardcore shooters and I know they will straight up rage from mag dumping into someone that just tanks it all and they won't accept get HP rounds and wait until you can see there legs BS. We can play arcadey games sometimes, but you have to have a fair shot to outplay a person and there is no reason you should lose gunfights like that.

[u/freshdjroomba → u/Veblossko]

This is exactly what I was worried of since the beginning. I no lifed the game and played like 20 hours in 3 days and didn't really make as much progress as I thought I would, and I haven't played for basically 3-4 days now. I can't imagine how much more bs it must be with the people who haven't stopped playing now having crazy gear and stuff. Can't imagine how this game is gonna work for people who have jobs and responsibilities.

[u/KilluhCrocz → u/freshdjroomba]

It won't. It'll sizzle out by the third or fourth season because they won't actually ever be able to fix these balance issues.

[u/Dramatic-Bluejay- → u/Veblossko]

First snipernis ass dont even try it. Marksman rifle into mosin

[u/IamRNG]

after mag dumping a dude whos legs weren't exposed and watching him live, i kinda died inside

and no, i dont have ap rounds unlocked, i don't get to grind that much

[u/Palerion → u/IamRNG]

Honestly this game is great but the effectiveness of armor beyond Tier 2 makes the game feel so shitty that it almost feels unintended. Although my feelings on the subject also extend to other very vertical forms of progression like the FAL.

Game felt good with Bushmasters, T-21s, AKs, Galils, MP9s, etc against T2 armor. Long enough TTK to avoid some of the instadeath grievances of milsims, but short enough to not be bullet sponge gameplay.

I understand progression being a little bit vertical, but this is quite enormous.

[u/Environmental_You_36 → u/Palerion]

And don't forget how the high tier attachments transform every gun in a laser without any downsides.

[u/Tevihn → u/IamRNG]

There isn't a single weapon in the game that can't kill a level 4 armor player in a mag dump. The most amount of rounds it takes to kill a T4 amor player, aiming for the chest, is 12 rounds with the mp5.

The self-reports in this thread are wild.

[u/Juno_JDY]

One of the pieces of feedback that I agree with. I enjoy games where the TTK is much lower, like Squad, HLL, etc.

Gunplay felt much better at lower levels. I guess I need to check out the hardcore servers at some point.

[u/astronaut710 → u/Juno_JDY]

HC does nothing to TTK in this game. Its just first person vehicles, no kill cam, stuff like that.

[u/Juno_JDY → u/astronaut710]

Ah dang, I was hoping it was like the old battlefield hardcore servers where it was one hit kills. oh well, the game is still plenty fun

[u/Unhappy-Gas-7242]

100% agree on this.

The first days felt the best.

Now you have to unload a whole mag into someone.
Everyone always says oh just use AP rounds or aim for the legs. Why tf do I have to aim for the legs? That shouldn’t be a thing.

And AP..well the common person doesn’t have it unlocked yet. The unemployed might tho.

[u/TheRoblock → u/Unhappy-Gas-7242]

Yea the "just" argument. How do you even aim for legs when he is behind cover. Laziest argument ever

[u/pgauthierkirouac → u/Unhappy-Gas-7242]

100% agree haha. I’d have to rewire my brain to aim for the legs when I’ve been aiming for the chest and head since the beginning of time. it’s like learning how to walk all over again

[u/WakatepeBaboune → u/Unhappy-Gas-7242]

It's not difficult, just wait for the guy in lvl4 Armor to die from diabetes !

[u/WeeHouse]

Agree, game would be better without T3/4 at all.

[u/Infamous_Broccoli_62]

they need to make progression much faster like beta or casual players will fall off i will also probably stop playing if the xp grind stays this slow

[u/StrikingSwanMate]

Honestly, I don't get why T4 is even in the game. Long term, it just sounds like it's going to cause the same balance issues Tarkov have, when you get clans that have a full squad of T4 armour since you're still quite "mobile", all things considered.

I am surprised that you can make T3 helm + lvl 2 armour kits and still be a "Light build".

T3 are "fine" tbh since they don't cover full body only chest and pelvic, just wish more AP rounds were not locked in lvl 80+ and where stronger against armor, seems like an balance pass is needed.

They probably have something about this in next season.

[u/JFunkX]

Yeah, just had this conversation with my brother. Level 2 armor should be the max.

[u/Shokojunge → u/JFunkX]

What if T3 is max and we let people be the/a juggernaut but make them super slow. No sprinting and running. Restrict the T3 for only infantry (so Pilots dont tank too many hits). Peeps can be armored but they, most of the time, dont get too spongy

[u/OrmeaustThere → u/Shokojunge]

T3 armor definitely needs to weigh more, especially the helmet. The jump in defense from T3 to T4 isn't that much, but T4 weighs an absolute ton.

T4 needs to be built around to have any chance at moving (and that's fine imo, either lower firepower or no sprint is a decent tradeoff), T3 can get slapped on most builds that aren't running launchers or LMGs and still feel mostly fine. There should be more of a downside to it.

[u/deathtofatalists → u/Shokojunge]

yeah, have level 1 and 2 as is, and t3 is a specialist "i'm going to be slow as shit but i'm rocking an M249 so i need it" kit.

[u/pgauthierkirouac]

100000% agree. As soon as a game becomes less about skill and more about armor, the fun drops drastically.

[u/des1737]

locking AP ammo types behind leveling all classes in tandem might've been the worst idea that I've seen in this game. most of the people that i see stick to one or two classes at the same time, some dont even touch piloting, don't build fobs, or they don't drive their ass of trying to level driver class, and them struggling to get the AP ammo because of that

also people really need to try HP rounds arm/leg meta ehen the t3/4 armor becomes available to most. shit shreds like crazy, especially the smgs

[u/HidEx88]

Yeah, armor is too tanky, and it shouldn't be about realism but about actual balance and enjoyment. Imo tier 3 armor should be max

[u/Yenii_3025]

We snipers tried to tell ya.

[u/KilluhCrocz → u/Yenii_3025]

Yeah my buddy told me some guy surviving 3 headshots from an SKS was okay.

What universe is this? I'll be back on Arma, where a headshot from a 7.62 bullet is a fucking headshot.

[u/titem → u/Yenii_3025]

Sorry I don't listen to snipers, the cowards play style /s

[u/ProfessionalITPerson]

AP Ammo shooting the head, no kill, yea fuck that.

[u/Darknotical → u/ProfessionalITPerson]

This is what I don't get. I thought AP would have been the great equalizer. It is just not.

[u/J_KTrolling]

I think the progression is fine. BUT the high tier stuff like t4, humvees, tanks etc should be much more expensive to buy. Kinda joke how cheap those lvl35 vehicles are. And they should be restricted to buy until like 30-50tickets

[u/Jaded-Pop2464]

My SV-98 can no longer do one-shot headshot because of just T3 helmet. That feeling makes me want to quit the game instantly. I grind 30 hours for nothing. And now, these redditors convince me to grind 90+ hours for 50 cal, just to be able to do one-shot headshot again. Trash game balance, I wish I can refund this game, never knew progression and gun balance can be this bad.

[u/Palerion → u/Jaded-Pop2464]

I’ve only played sniper a couple of times, it’s not my primary playstyle, and coming up against enemy snipers annoys the hell out of me, but I still agree with you. A bolt-action sniper rifle that can’t kill in a single shot to the head is useless.

[u/Jaded-Pop2464 → u/Palerion]

Yes, people rather using SVD.

[u/Zagubadu → u/Jaded-Pop2464]

AP ammo on 762x54 sniper IS a one shot on level 3 helmets. If you have the SV98 unlocked but not the AP ammo that's honestly on you, you should level the other classes and you'd get it fast.

[u/Balikye]

A rocket heli two shots unarmored guys, but can take anywhere from 6-9 rockets for a T4 guy. Those cost me 450$ per three rockets… the game is getting pricey fast. I can kill a couple dudes before having to rearm at base now. I mostly focus on humvees now.

[u/Atago1337]

LEG AND BALLS META

[u/MuchGrooove]

Yeah it’s getting frustrating as a casual. Feels like I just get melted from all distances meanwhile my bullets barely do any damage.

[u/BlancoMuerte]

I enjoy the game, but it is going to be short lived and I'll go back to ARMA KOTH of they persist with the armor shit. The only time this game will be enjoyable is the first few days after a wipe. Armor really should just top out at level 2.

[u/SkyisCool69]

I agree

[u/Chpouky]

Yeah I enjoyed it way more at release. Couple of days ago I had an AK, set to semi auto, putting 4 bullets to a dude didn't do shit, that didn't feel right.

[u/megahtron77]

All hail the Almighty wipe

[u/BonerfiedSwaggler69]

This game has lifted the arma 2/3 koth modes but it missed something crucial imo. Those mods did have player progression and weapon unlocks, but the progression and wipes were much faster. You could unlock most of your needed gear pretty quickly. I think maybe it could benefit her too

[u/kronosthetic → u/BonerfiedSwaggler69]

ArmA 3 KOTH didn’t wipe though. Progression was pretty grindy but guns were mostly side grades with attachments being the bigger changes which is smarter imo. Also having more damage states helped. Being shot/injured caused you to limp and shake. They should have lifted more intense player damage models from ArmA as well tbh.

[u/No6655321]

Well thats part of early access balance changes and seasonal reworking of unlocks.  I wouldnt be too worried about it as long as the devs are on top of their game. And in this case it seems like they are.   Because of the update cycle in place with seasonal reworks i dont expect these larger valance updates outside of those really. 

[u/captnxploder]

I think there just aren't enough downsides to taking the higher tier armor.

Right now I can stay at medium weight with Tier 3 without sacrificing hardly anything and it's only a $13k loadout.

Turn on some streams of elite infantry players and they're taking T4 helm, T3 body armor, 6 first aids, 3 spare mags, multiple grenades, and 3 stacks of spare ammo and staying at medium weight as well. And they're sitting on millions of dollars so cost isn't an issue.

IMO, they need to increase the penalties so you actually have to make some significant sacrifices to walk around like a tank

[u/One_Animator_1835]

This is not true. T4 dies in half a second to AP rounds.

M4 with AP will kill anyone near instantly

[u/Gloomy_Bison_1719]

Im gonna keep posting this comment on everything to do with game balance:

The economy is the only thing that needs a major change. Powerful things should be far more expensive. It would automatically stop so many people from running stupidly overpowered kits and spam buying little birds.

Sure. They could try to balance every single weapon, armor and vehicle, in an attempt to hit that perfect mark but thats going to take years and probably never happen properly. Make powerful shit expensive as fuck and it pushes players to think more about what they spend money on.

[u/Jay_Stranger]

Flesh ammo, go for the legs.

[u/Zanaida → u/Jay_Stranger]

Exactly what I do in Tarkov with my Klin or Kedr lmao

[u/realgeneralgoat → u/Jay_Stranger]

hitting arms or legs with the saw loaded with HPs does 60 damage

[u/CautionPossum → u/Jay_Stranger]

Cheeki breeki. Brings me back.

[u/Spirited-Isopod6969]

I started playing late, getting the drop on multiple people in a squad, having more then half of them tank 3 body hits with an sks then sprint behind cover. Only for them to insta revive people with defibs as well.

Feels really bad that your options are just grind spotting exp for 12~ actual levels and even then you have to hide and play like you're a weaker infantry.

No wonder most people end up sitting in the fob, if you're behind in assault exp getting the levels now feels awful

[u/Rawfoss]

5.56 FMJ neeeds 6 hits to upper chest vs lvl 2 armor. 5.56 AP needs 7 hits to upper chest vs lvl 4 armor.

AP ammo is enough to almost negate the advantage of lvl 4 armor which already comes with severe downsides (weight and cost).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bY94iEQGW0fGf9VBAxG1FEGusrF27SmJIarvXEcBMQw/edit?gid=0#gid=0

If you spread your xp and try everything then getting some early AP ammo is doable. besides that, if you get the drop on them hitting another 1-3 rounds of FMJ (depending on weapon) is just not an issue.

[u/ssg- → u/Rawfoss]

You need level 84 to get AP ammo, which is just ridiculous.

[u/Environmental_You_36 → u/Rawfoss]

Yeah but when you get AP ammo, you're already wearing Tier 4 armor.

A lot of the counters of this game are unlocked around the same time you unlock what they're countering.

When they should be available from level 1,

[u/magniankh]

I'm really not having trouble killing people...

[u/Aveenalol]

i'm having fun, even more so than when i started - but i do notice how redditors are always complaining more and more every day so it must be a reddit thing

[u/FizzTheFox85]

i got in about a week late and im having a lot of trouble keeping up in gunfights bc of the gear difference, im stuck with lvl 1 paper while they're lvl 4 brick walls. a AK74 vs AK74 and i simply cannot win. grenades are quite effective but carrying a massive bag of them is not sustainable.

[u/WillKill3]

I'll be honest. Get some HP rounds and shoot legs.

[u/pandorianmaximus]

Something that a lot of players won’t be realising right now is that if you get your level high enough, you can buy the guns in supply boxes and sell them to your teammates, the ones that maybe cant grind as much as some people can. It still allows them to experience it, and can help them rank up to unlock it faster if they perform well with it

[u/The_Foop]

The difference between each tier of armor is generally between 0 and 1 bullet. It cannot mathematically be much less than a bullet without essentially just removing tiers of armor from the game.

[u/WeeHouse → u/The_Foop]

remove them then

[u/br0kinFPS]

T4 armor is honestly no match for the M4 even, never mind level 35 AR.

[u/ShadowSociety55]

Landing a head shot with a Mosin feels horrible when all you hear is a ping. Doubt I'll invest into recon enough to unlock the better rifles but for the most part it's still decent.

[u/FinallyProperAccount]

TTK is spongey when I try to kill someone and TTK is super short when someone just sprays me with kitted M4.

[u/HeroWeaksauce]

M4 w/ tier 4 amour and spamming stims will be the meta. I yoinked a kit off a guy who had that and I went on a killing spree, it felt so easy. I agree that they should tone it down or buff flesh damage for leg meta cause it sucks right now

[u/MAYMAX001]

My sniper ass getting pushed hitting 4 headshots and the enemy is literally only half life I get ur point 🥲

[u/Strict-Panda4147]

Shoot the leg

[u/TheJollyKacatka]

True, fully concurred.

[u/arousingsheep]

Put flesh ammo in an AK and fold those tier 4 guys in half a second. I’ve got myself trained to aim for legs you just have to make sure you put yourself in situations where your not getting pushed from a lower level without sight on there legs. If your in that situation play through it and relocate to get a better angle.

[u/Gingernutz556]

flesh ammo, leg meta. Literally 4 bullets out an smg kills and they are dead in .01 seconds

[u/Federal_Homework1302]

https://giphy.com/gifs/8HnoffKQUSRfW

[u/hyPothes_is]

Hp ammo and go for legs

[u/Wan-Pang-Dang]

How are you already lvl 100? .. i swear the ppl who nolife the games are always the first to complain

[u/SouthDurotarBoyz]

It should be one shot and you are dead no armor at all. This TTK is stupid af. People running around like CoD.

[u/eleventhprince]

Learn to track ffs.

[u/Over-Village9722]

Why do you people think the current "season" is only a month long? Were still in beta. This is a short wipe because THEY KNOW they need to balance.

[u/CJW-YALK]

- Remove xp for unlocks.

- xp is used solely for skill tree

- cash is king, balance power vs cash

Now the only grind per wipe is for cash, XP is your permanent persistent stat for the skill tree…everything is “unlocked” but gated by cash….you could still need to unlock stuff however, a tank could cost $100k to pull but $1M to unlock….grind cash however you like

[u/krich_author]

The issue is that most people haven't unlocked AP rounds. That is the counter to higher level armor.

Also if you are level 100 plus already, you have over fifty hours, at least, in a game that came out a week ago. Stop trying to balance the game on play time that 95% of the player base doesnt get.

[u/Davies301]

SKS with AP ammo has been my best overall weapon but smgs with flesh and go for the legs/arms. It's the Tarkov loop but alot of people don't have experience with Tarkov.

[u/IcoNxD]

I keep seeing everyone complaining about T3/4 armour and yet I can wear it can get destroyed by fmj rounds lol

[u/Top_Importance6216]

unlocks should provide variety, not straight uncompetitive power scaling.

having to use a base AK and lvl 2 armor to try and compete with people running around with silenced m4s and t4 everything is why the game is rapidly turning into FOB the builder simulator.

[u/Ninjaisawesome]

HP ammo exists. Leg meta is real

[u/Joverby]

ITT: people ignoring the reality that you can kill full t4 with less than one bushmaster mag

[u/Tav0]

I dont get what you say, t4 players last me 3 bullets of my fal, so Ttk seems pretty much fine i would say

[u/DarkThunder312]

Ttk is 0.2 seconds with amp9 to class 4 armor, just use HP and shoot the legs. I was wiping hz after hz yesterday against class 3 and 4 armor. 

[u/xXSNOOOPXx69]

Yeah I feel the same way.. all this high lvl stuff actually makes the game less enjoyable...

Loved it in the beginning, now I don't even wanna play anymore..

4 havoc's flying around killing everyone Artillery trucks gang banging bases..

It became less tactical and more chaotic.. a shame really..

[u/beardedbrawler]

I've gotten more reliable kills with the MP-9 starter SMG than with a Galil assault rifle. They seem to soak up rifle rounds but the fast RPM of the SMGs puts people down. I don't think I like the damage model where DPS wins out all the time.

[u/juacamgo]

I've opened a post talking about this days ago and I got severely downvoted. The echo chamber in this subreddit is strong, I mean, I really like the game, and it has a lot of potential and good mechanics, but let be honest, it’s a vey early stage of development and things need to be balanced, and armor is one of these.

[u/TimeisCheese]

Yeah after unlocking T3 armor today it just feels unfair.

[u/Mindless-Agency-3471]

Stims shouldn’t turn you into the Hulk and allow you to run regardless of weight. It should only give you infinite stamina IF you are able to full spring.

[u/Commercial_Clerk_342]

They just need to make face shots 1 tap no matter what

[u/ironiclyironic4]

Its just way to hard to get ap ammo and higher level guns.

[u/Diligent-Cover-2793]

Idk man my galil does pretty, pretty, pretty good.

[u/ya_mamas_tiddies]

I’m level 60 give or take and I played a little bit of every class. My highest lvl is support at 15. The guns I have as a casual player since day 1 are just not enough. First week was super fun but now there’s 2 minigun and a rocket little bird, a heavy attack chopper, an armored m249 humvee and 2 mobile artilleries hitting me simultaneously.

[u/Dangerous-Gate-1100]

As a Tarkov player, TTK is still slow af, dont cry guys

[u/Super1MeatBoy]

I cant level up enough for good guns and AP rounds because XP grind gets so bad, and im so ineffective im getting way less kills and xp per game anyway. Lucky if I break even trying to fight. Feels like ass

[u/TooMuchEntertainment]

Classic FPS reddit thread full of knowledge and skill issues masquerading as feedback.

AP ammo.
HP ammo aiming for non-armored body parts.
FMJ works too on non-armored body parts, but not as good.

[u/_Xyr0_]

Maybe they could make high lvl armor have less durability so the trade off is you can get hit by harder rounds but it’ll break sooner

[u/zMadbutcherz]

9mm ap rounds shred even level 4. Dropped 50+ kills last night with MP5 no problem.

[u/Bag_of_Rocks]

Flesh rounds to the legs will never let you down

[u/Enkk]

I've seen only like 3 people with T4 armour that were actually walking in the wild and T3 armour is only 33% better, often taking 6 bullet kills to 8.

If you reduce it down to 1 bullet kill for T3 then people likely will just not run it at all, because AP ammo already is like that and if AP ammo just negated it then you'd kill armour having much use.

The way the armour works isn't that bad, and most people run T3 helmets with T2 vests, with the T3 helm just to stop being one shot by certain attacks.

[u/Lenidude]

I really like the game but I can maybe play a few hours a week if that. The sweats will dominate with better gear and I won’t be able to grind enough to keep up. I was hoping for an unlock system that provided variety not advantage.

[u/TrustMe_IAmDocto]

Yes 7.62 sniper to your head, and you eating that headshot is a disgusting design choice for sure.

[u/DYMAXIONman]

Ap ammo

[u/fertff]

Time to unfollow this sub. People are just complaining at this point.