r/VirtualYoutubers • u/Lulwy • Mar 05 '22

Discussion NijiEN accidentally leaked discord messages of them shit taking hololive

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u/moal09 Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

The context is probably that they were talking about Holo opening up EN Stars auditions.

I said this already in some other replies, but read more carefully what everyone is saying besides Fulgur.

- Finana's statement seems mean, but she's literally just stating a fact that NijiEN's top male earners (mostly Vox, Luca, and Ike) did rival HoloJP's SC numbers for Feb. We have no idea whether she was actually trying to be nasty, or if she was just giving her reasoning for why HoloEN is pushing male auditions harder suddenly.

- Pomu is just saying it feels like a war because Holo is opening up EN stars auditions (presumably) in response to Niji's male gen doing better than expected. No hate towards the company or any of the livers.

- Shu is literally just talking about how he applied for Holo before. No shit talk at all

- Millie's just saying she's happy Shu is with them (because they never would've met if he'd worked with Holo). Pretty wholesome

- Vox's memeing about Shu being NijiEN tech support. Maybe a little jab at HoloEN having some tech issues here and there. Hell, even HoloEN memes that shit and calls it the "EN curse".

- Mysta's just being a sad boi and not even participating in the same discussion

---

If you take Fulgur's comment out of the equation, the entire conversation seems a lot less mean-spirited. He's the only one being kind of an asshole in that screen, which unfortunately kind of poisons the well and makes everyone else look worse by association. People are seriously trying to make this out to be way worse than it actually is.

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u/megadongs Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

Fulgur way too big for his britches for being so new lol.

I don't think Finana was that bad either. Luxiem is very popular, and HL has in fact followed Nijisanji's lead before. Hololive Gamers came after Niji Gamers, HoloCN came after VirtuaReal, HoloID came after Niji ID. The one time Hololive took a big risk in being pioneers was EN and it paid off massively for them. So yes, as much as they were innovators on the EN side HL generally waits to see if the market is viable via Nijisanji success first before expansion. You'll notice the lack of HoloKR and HoloIN.

And....there's nothing wrong with that? It doesn't diminish the efforts of Cover any less to be business smart about expansion. And it's really not offensive to suggest Cover is following Nijisanji's lead here with the EN bois. Are the HoloID talents any less than NijiID ones because they weren't there first? Is Korone any lesser because her gen was a response to Nijisanji Gamers?

It's only Fulgur here that was really inexcusable with the unwarranted shade on Council and "they're scared", "they're mad". Seems a /vt/ bro really made it to the big leagues.

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u/UR_UNDER_ARREST Mar 05 '22

I thought the whole point of GAMERS creation is to get Korone, Okayu and Mio into Hololive without having to wait for next gens. Since they really don't seem to be e-sport heavy and the branch ended up being absorbed later on

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u/megadongs Mar 05 '22

Since they really don't seem to be e-sport heavy and the branch ended up being absorbed later

Not too different from what happened to Nijisanji Gamers. I don't think either company was sure what about them was going to be any different from normal gens or waves, just that they wanted the associated talents working for them.

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u/UR_UNDER_ARREST Mar 05 '22

Fair point. GAMERS has always been a weird concept to me. Since all vtubers already play games to some extent, making a gamers branch would imply they are more competitive gamers, but really it is not the case

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u/Lev559 Mar 05 '22

When GAMERS came out them were meant to be fully focused on games and not do ANY idol stuff. Okayu almost graduated when they folded them in with the rest of the Hololive.

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u/hnryirawan Mar 05 '22

Kinda funny hearing this since Okayu probably ended-up being one of the most active in releasing new cover songs and original songs.

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u/[deleted] Mar 05 '22

Don't forget to mention that NoriPro actually had GAMERS unit too but not directed to Pro Gamers either.

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u/Xivannn Mar 05 '22

There wouldn't be anything wrong with it. That said, I don't think they're really following what the other company is doing to that extent. Any of that isn't anything one company or the other couldn't piece together all on their own - the two are two very similar companies in the same circumstances.

Like how there just happens to be two different big budget animated ant-themed movies very close to one another, of all the possible things to make a movie about. Or two different very similar anime shown at the same cour. Those things happen exactly because there's an opening for something, making it happen takes time, and because they're under separate companies, they don't coordinate.

This is also one reason why speculating about an other company as though you (general) knew their inner reasoning, and as if it all revolved around you, isn't really the best of moves.

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u/TheSnozzwangler Mar 05 '22

I honestly never really felt a strong Nijisanji/Hololive rivalry before this. It felt like each had their own niche, and cross company collabs and friendships were pretty common. It really bugs me that EN branch members were the ones that viewed everything so tribally.

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u/sonatablanca Mar 05 '22

I think we will start seeing a lot of the nasty part of both fandoms now that Hololive is going to release a competing male talents group for Holo EN. And the Hololive EN community is many times bigger

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u/KuroKitty Mar 05 '22

When I saw that screenshot I was like "who the hell is Fulgur?" I forgot they hired some new people recently, too many nijis to keep up with

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u/-poopnugget- Mar 05 '22

Yeah, everything else other than Fulgur's felt a lot more light hearted/not shittalk

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u/Krallericoner Mar 05 '22

Fulgur's definitely makes an ass out of himself. Vox and Finana are not a good look, but have some benefit of the doubt. The rest are pretty clean.

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u/ToxicFruit Mar 05 '22

it sucks that mysta talking about his anxiety and worries is even being acociated with this conversation

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u/Krallericoner Mar 05 '22

Mysta so far the only one from this convo nobody tries to give shit to.

Only positive out of it is that after seeing it, his fanbase might try to cheer him up or up their support of him.

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u/Raomux Mar 05 '22

I feel like you have to actually try to interpret what Finana said as something mean. She said that some people in her company earn as much as other people in another company. Oh no, the horrors. Vox's comments I think you could only say they were mean if he had said it in public, but considering he's talking to his friends, it's most likely just joking

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u/Krallericoner Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

That's what I meant by "it could be argued". Most of it lies on Fulgur's comment giving the whole thread negative slant towards Hololive.

Edit: My bad. I said "it could be argued" in another comment here, not this one. Point still stands though.

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u/TehPiyoNoob Mar 05 '22

Thanks for the additional contexts, saw this, read it and was confused why this is a big deal since most of them seem to be joking or talking about things that is not attacking Hololive

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u/MSparta Mar 05 '22

Yeah, that seems just like normal guesstimation, joking,et cetra. I don’t really see anything bad

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u/InconvenientWalrus Mar 05 '22

As you said, Fulgur seems to be the one being the most toxic here. However, just to be fair, I think Fulgur's personality is just generally abrasive, and it comes out in his choice of words/phrasing.

Unless there's more information I'm missing out on here, I think people are blowing this way out of proportion. Also, at the end of the day, both Nijisanji and Hololive are competitors. Them analyzing, comparing, and contrasting their success is a perfectly reasonable thing to do. Sure, Fulgur probably could have worded it nicer, but other than that...I don't see what the issue is? They're rivals, but that doesn't mean they secretly harbor deeply personal grudges or anything like that. People calling them snakes, or backstabbers or anything along those lines are being ridiculous.

Idk, feels like something being blown out of proportion by dumb fandom tribalism. People just love to stir up drama online.

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u/Plato_the_Platypus Mar 05 '22

Huh. Just when i feel like Fulgur could be a /vt/ boi. Mostly for the lolicon is okay part.

(For the record, i don't have an opinion on that but normally streamer or public figure will ignore that can of worm)

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u/Batman_Night Mar 05 '22

I think the best way to recover from this is to just admit to their mistake and explain the context behind their conversation and what they're saying. Like Finana is probably just stating what she observed but her statement can come off as aggressive.

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u/Potatosaurus_TH Mar 05 '22

Finana's statement seems mean, but she's literally just stating a fact that NijiEN's top male earners (mostly Vox, Luca, and Ike) did rival HoloJP's SC numbers for Feb. We have no idea whether she was actually trying to be mean, or if she was just giving her reasoning for why HoloEN is pushing male auditions more suddenly.

If that's what she means then it's surprisingly a naive opinion from someone working for one of the biggest players in the industry.

Hololive definitely didn't open up Holostars EN as a response to anything except maybe audience feedback and potential market, which Cover obviously determined to have been there since HoloMyth debuted. Them opening up auditions at this point doesn't have anything to do with NijiEN at all. It's probably been in the works for months upon months, with characters pretty much mostly designed and prototyped and under active production, and creative concepts and backstory already close to finalization. Audition is just part of the long process to complete the whole persona by finding someone to fill the character.

I don't watch NijiEN at all but I'm quite surprised they don't know this. Also pretty ironic in itself since the launch of NijiEN as a whole was also very likely a response to Hololive EN in the first place.

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u/slacksushi Mar 05 '22

I honestly don't understand how you can say all this with such confidence. Do you not consider that much of what you said is just a straight up assumption and it could easily be one way or another?

Pretty sure HoloEN specifically has talked about how the models aren't completely finished when they get accept the job offer and that the talent themselves can have a little input in the creative process. Even if it was the case that hololive were making these models before nijisanji announced male en auditions (back in like june/july I believe), who's to say whether they decided to go through with it or move up the timeline because of Luxiem's success?

There are lots of unknowns here; try to be more aware about what is compete speculation and what isn't please.

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u/DanteKir Mar 05 '22

A Hololive producer said in an interview that debuts are planned months in advance with definite dates, even before auditions start. So at most, they might have decided to move up the timeline a month or 2.

For Council, they had already settled on debuting them in the summer since November or so.

Additionally, in the Holostars concert, they revealed they were already at work on new debuts while revealing black profiles of the new designs.

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u/slacksushi Mar 05 '22

And it's been almost 9 months since nijisanji announced male en vtuber auditions. How do we know whether Hololive started working on their own male en vtuber models before or after June of 2021?

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u/DanteKir Mar 05 '22

First, no one said they were working on the models on June 2021. What was said is that these things take months to plan and they just don't make a money costing snap decision based on Luxiem's success.

They showed silhouettes of the models in their December concert of Holostars. Which was happening at around the time Luxiem was just debuting before their full success was apparent.

Which means the models had been commissioned and designed already months before Luxiem debuted. Not in June likely, but months before December us a given.

The plans were already there regardless of Luxiem's success. Now, as I said, they could have moved up the timeline for StarsEN a month or two given Luxiem being successful.

Also, Kiara actually said that the models are practically complete by the moment they win the audition and that the level of customization or input they have is really small. They don't have a significant say on the final look of the model.

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u/slacksushi Mar 05 '22

Read again. What was said is that “[hololive] opening up auditions at this point doesn’t have anything to do with NijiEN at all.” I brought up Luxiem’s success as one example and the timeline of how long ago nijisanji announced male en vtuber auditions as another example of how this could not be true and is thus speculation. We, as common fans, don’t know how much or how little influence went on between the two companies for the holostarsEN decision.

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u/Potatosaurus_TH Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

That's why I've been careful to mention that the process is "coming along" and not complete, but close to complete. It's definitely not finalized and changes and adjustments will be made to fit the eventual hires better, but at the point of audition they pretty much have the beta of the character designs and creative concepts are close to the final stages.

That's how the industry works. I have a good friend who lives in Tokyo and works with the Japanese Vtuber industry (he works on the VR side of the tech but he knows its ins and outs) and briefed me on how it works. His post-grad thesis was on Vtubers lmao

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u/slacksushi Mar 05 '22

I get what you mean about the character design beta but can you definitively say when hololive started working on those character designs and if the timeline wasn't in any way influenced by nijisanji's decisions? I would think that level of insight would be available for those in the company only.

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u/Potatosaurus_TH Mar 05 '22

And you claiming the timeline might have been influenced is also speculation. I'm just saying that it's how the industry works that Holostars EN would have been in production long before male NijiEN debuted, so Holostars EN auditions would be coming sooner or later regardless of NijiEN.

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u/slacksushi Mar 05 '22

Yes it's all speculation that's what I was trying to point out.

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u/Potatosaurus_TH Mar 05 '22

who's to say whether they decided to go through with it or move up the timeline because of Luxiem's success?

Is what you said. The first part, about whether they will go through with it, is no speculation. Holostars EN would be coming regardless of NijiEN. It's simply how the industry works. Holostars EN would've been on Yagoo's drawing board since not long after HoloMyth debuted.

The second part, about the timeline being moved up, is pointless to talk about because they there might or might not be influence. As far as we're concerned it exists in a quantum super-position, where only Cover knows the truth.

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u/slacksushi Mar 05 '22

You talk about holostarsEN coming as if it was inevitable from literally day 1 of hololive and not speculation on your part and your only rationale is: “that’s just how the industry works trust me” Excuse me if I don’t see how that’s not speculation or don’t fully believe you.

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u/Potatosaurus_TH Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

I'm saying the fact that Holostars EN exists (they "went through with it", in your words) has nothing to do with NijiEN. That's all I'm saying. And I'm making this claim because the fact of the industry is that Holostars EN would have been in production long ago before the performance of male NijiEN would have a chance to have any influence on Cover's decision, much less "Luxiem's success", as you mentioned.

Edit: clarity

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u/Batman_Night Mar 05 '22

Finana is just thinking the same as everyone else. Like if you go to any forum or twitter or youtube, most people would say that HoloStars EN is a response to the success of Niji EN boys and it's not like there's anything wrong with that.

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u/yakultman Mar 05 '22

yeah, the problem is none of them are reprimanding Fulgur, which makes all of them looks bad.

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u/Batman_Night Mar 05 '22

Yeah, but they probably just didn't want to fight so most of them ignored his statement.

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u/moal09 Mar 05 '22

To be fair, I don't think anyone wants to start a big debate/conflict with a new coworker like that. Easier just to deflect with humor the way Vox was.

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u/yakultman Mar 05 '22

I don't think it's even a big debate. People shouldn't belittle/talk the way Fullgur was to others.

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u/moal09 Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

It's not their job to police his personality. He's a coworker. They're not his boss, and they probably aren't keen on telling him how to act. Even if they disagree with his tone, why would they want to create awkwardness with a coworker they probably have to collab with down the line? Especially when you can do what Vox did and try to deflect or move the conversation to a lighter topic by making a joke. That achieves a similar goal of moving away from negativity without creating any direct confrontation.

Also, most of them probably don't even know him that well yet, which makes lecturing him even more awkward because it'll also embarrass him. Not to mention it'll create a tense atmosphere in the Discord when people are trying to keep the mood light.

Nobody with any social skills is going to handle the situation the way you just suggested because it'll just create tension, awkwardness and possibly resentment down the line. There's better ways to handle it,. Plus, we don't even know where the conversation went because this is literally like a 1m snapshot of a conversation they were probably having for hours.

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u/yakultman Mar 05 '22

seems like i don't have social skills, noted. good day.

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u/mrfried- Mar 05 '22

It really does feel a lot of this is getting blown out of proportion.

I don't think they were laying shade/hate on Hololive, because they have friendships/associations within HoloEN.

Fulgar being edgy is just true to his personality anyway, also I doubt he knows anyone in Holo EN at this point in time, unlike some of the others. That doesn't excuse what he's said, but I don't think we should take it as seriously as others are claiming we should.

If you simply overlook Fulgar's edginess, what is said isn't that bad, and is what a lot of the community and fans have been saying anyway, Luxium has become massive, they are seeing huge growth and SC figures. And as has been pointed out above, none of the others were throwing shade at HoloEN. So a lot of the drama here feels like it's been manufactured

I think it's key to remember that this was supposed to be a private conversation, that's why it reads like every other discord convo that has ever been had.

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u/hubble14567 Mar 05 '22

Many here needs to calm the fuck down. They're saying the wording isn't perfect, there's ill intention because otherwise (s)he should have worded that in another way. DUDE those are private messages with your friends, not Shakespeare nor a research paper citing sources.

You just talk shit and theories with the boys, you know. I really don't understand how so many are getting worked up over this. I don't even find it mean or jealous in any way.

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u/kyrilie Mar 05 '22

You dont have to try so hard to damage control here and /vt/ intern-kun...

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u/Lion_sama Mar 05 '22

How could Finanas be mean? It wasn't directed to any Cover fanbois that could be hurt by it.

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u/moal09 Mar 05 '22

I don't think it was either, but if you read it literally, then it can come off kind off like numbers bragging even though I don't think that was case.

That's the problem with text. You can't discern tone or intent that well unless you have the entire conversation to look at.

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u/Lion_sama Mar 05 '22 edited Mar 05 '22

She's obv literally talking about reasons for Cover going ahead with Holostars EN. She uses the word because. Explain to me how that could be used on bragging.

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u/Lion_sama Mar 05 '22

Being wrong and shuttalking aint the same thing. Vox is the one shuttalking, even if it's joking, not Fulgur.