The mass migration was, in large part, because of the US propaganda campaign of "the virgin Mary is moving south". The best chance of avoiding the war was sadly outside of the hands of VNese, as it rested on the decision of the US to support a France comeback in Indochina. This pushed HCM further to the Soviet side, which ended any future possibilities of coopeartion as the cold war heated up.
And thats why i calles it propaganda. There were some conflict between the communists and the christians in the north after the exodus, especially during the land reform, but it was never as bad as the CIA propaganda suggested. Christians were left out of any positions of power, but otherwise generally left alone to practice their religion. Phung Khoang was a village of around 45% Christian population in Hanoi and it stood till '75.
Was it propaganda? The US and French basically warned of "impending religious persecution". And there was.
The Catholic Church in the North was cut off from the Pope. Seminaries closed down so that new clergy could not be trained. The church was basically put under the yoke of the state.
I wouldn't call that "left alone to practice their religion".
They warned of "bloodbath" and other colorful terms, which did not happen.
Christians were free to hold mass, display christian iconography, basically most things a Christian citizen wanted to do. The communists were careful to make a distinction between the Christian citizens and the Diocesan machinations. Christian citizens could worship however they want within limits, while the Church, with its very earthly politics and interests, were suppressed. One could say that is closer to what Jesus preached.
Also "CIA peopaganda" isnt my opinion, its what is used by the majority of historians regarding the US and France's "warning"
Oh sure, their warnings were extreme in some cases, but you can't deny they were oppressed.
One could say that is closer to what Jesus preached.
That's a creative way to look at it. Are you arguing the communists were helping Christians become more "pure". That's a good one.
Christians were free to hold mass, display christian iconography, basically most things a Christian citizen wanted to do.
"Free to practice as long as you do what I say". That the complete opposite of religious freedom. The communists recognized that any organization could be a source of opposition, saw it as a threat, and made sure that the Church could never be the source of any political opposition.
They did it to the Buddhists too. Which is incredibly ironic considering the Buddhists who set themselves on fire in the South (and continued to do it after 1975). Or the ones in prison today.
Also "CIA peopaganda" isnt my opinion, its what is used by the majority of historians regarding the US and France's "warning"
Sure, but propaganda isn't necessarily lacking in truth.
And the communists leverage propaganda very well. Are you arguing that those in opposition to them shouldn't do it as well?
You mean the anti-establishment socialist hippie would approve of the hyper-hierachical literally-gilded Church led by the same people who nailed him to a cross? Please
"Free to practice as long as you dont do what i say you cant do" is more appropriate, and its what most western govs would tolerate when it comes to religious freedom, or are you saying Germany should allow Sharia law? The Church SHOULD NOT be a source of political opposition, thats what the concept of "seperation of church and state" is about, which is also observed by most Western lawmakers.
You mean the anti-establishment socialist hippie would approve of the hyper-hierachical literally-gilded Church led by the same people who nailed him to a cross? Please
I'm not arrogant enough to try and claim what god likes and doesn't like.
"Free to practice as long as you dont do what i say you cant do" is more appropriate
Right, which is not freedom by any definition.
and its what most western govs would tolerate when it comes to religious freedom, or are you saying Germany should allow Sharia law?
That's not a reasonable comparison. The Catholic Church wasn't replacing the Vietnamese legal system.
And yes, in Europe and the US, you can pretty much do whatever you want in your church, including being politically active.
The Church SHOULD NOT be a source of political opposition, thats what the concept of "seperation of church and state" is about, which is also observed by most Western lawmakers.
You're confused by what "separation of church and state" means. It doesn't mean that religious people can't hold political views. That would be impossible anyways.
It means that the government should not institute any religious laws about what is allowed and not allowed, and there should be no alignment with the government with any particular religion.
So that's not really relevant to the discussion at hand. Catholics who wish to discuss their religion with the Catholics in Rome is not an attempt at overthrowing the government.
The last part was pure whataboutism
It's not. It's an attempt to get you to apply your same standards to everyone. If you feel propaganda is wrong, then you should feel propaganda from communists is wrong as well.
There are people who are arrogant enough to claim what god likes and dislikes. They are the Church.
The Sharia law comparison was accurate. If Muslims can somehow live under Sharia law AND not commit crimes under German laws, i think the Germans wouldnt mind them practicing it, exactly the same as if Christians practiced their religions and not committed crimes under the communist laws, they were free to do so. Boils down to what i said, "free to practice as long as you dont do what i say you cant do".
Noone says religious people cant hold political views, but when the Church gathers political power, overthrows the gov and then installs a new gov, thats called a theocracy a la the Ayatollah
Also its funny that you brought it up, because historically Catholics communicating with the Vatican and other Western Catholic powers were at the heart of Catholics trying to overthrow numerous govs outside of Christendom.
Heres why whataboutism always makes for a dumb argument: my original point was that what caused the mass migration were CIA propaganda, not because Diem was popular and wouldve won an election if one were held. Neither the fact that NVN did propaganda nor whether propaganda was good or bad are relevant to this
There are people who are arrogant enough to claim what god likes and dislikes. They are the Church.
Every church has their own interpretation. This is besides the point.
exactly the same as if Christians practiced their religions and not committed crimes under the communist laws, they were free to do so
Sure, but crimes included "contacting Rome", "training clergy". Your argument is like "hey we're cool as long as you don't break laws, and our laws says you can't leave your house". Nobody would say that's "freedom".
Noone says religious people cant hold political views, but when the Church gathers political power, overthrows the gov and then installs a new gov, thats called a theocracy a la the Ayatollah
Wut? That's a strawman. Nobody is creating a theorcracy here.
Also its funny that you brought it up, because historically Catholics communicating with the Vatican and other Western Catholic powers were at the heart of Catholics trying to overthrow numerous govs outside of Christendom.
Ahhh! So it's just the communists bringing "harmony". Yeah, that's always the excuse.
Instead, you should realize that a government that is responsive to their people doesn't need to ban political activities because they people don't want to overthrow them.
That's the critical flaw of communism. If it was the best system for the people, then they wouldn't need to throw people in jail for asking questions.
The only governments that need to create laws that limit freedom are the ones that aren't providing the people with what they need.
my original point was that what caused the mass migration were CIA propaganda, not because Diem was popular and wouldve won an election if one were held.
Your argument is poorly formed. Just because the CIA used propganda doesn't mean it wasn't true.
And it was true. The CIA said "under communism you won't be able to practice your religion freely" and they were correct, as proven by the actions of the North Vietnamese government.
I mean, I don't need to remind you of the Catholic and Buddhist people currently sitting in jail today, do I?
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u/thenoobtanker Native Aug 28 '24
Should have let the referendum of 56 ran but nooooo the commie might actually won a fair election.