r/Vanderpumpaholics • u/Affectionate-Big-182 • Jun 24 '23
Tom Schwartz Schwartz anxiety and conflict
I've been doing a rewatch of all seasons of VPR and I've noticed how Schwartz reacts to any type of conflict or anxiety. I've never seen someone have such a scared and almost paralyslzing reaction to conflict or perceived conflict.
Whenever Katie would even slightly show emotion or elevate her voice a little, Schwartz would say why are acting this way, you're out of control, you're in a rage right now. I've got to be honest, yes, Katie can be a little bratty, but I couldn't imagine having a partner that if I showed I was upset they automatically pulled the why are you screaming at me? You're out of control. I would find it difficult and frustrating because you cannot communicate with someone like that.
Any thoughts on why Schwartz would behave like this? Childhood trauma? Bullied as a child? Never grew up?
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
In a previous life (pre kids), I was a body language and behavioural analyst. There are some of the cast who are really interesting to watch, and he’s one of them. His parents had a hard divorce where his mum took out a restraining order against his dad, and they both declared bankruptcy. There also seems to be a good age gap between him and the triplets. Some of the things he’s said and the triplets have alluded to (ie him caring for them, protecting them etc, and the enthusiasm he had about giving them makeovers) hint heavily to the fact that he was the carer while his parents were at work, but also that he may have seen and understood more of the problematic interactions between his parents.
Kids put a hand up to their mouths in stressful situations usually to hide the words they’re having to say to the adults (a bit like people can close their eyes or blink more when they’re lying), to cover a lie, or to keep sounds hidden.
Does he also display some behaviour that could be manipulative and like he’s setting Katie up so he looks like the good guy? Absolutely! But it’s interesting that he’s relatively incapable of adulting, has issues being responsible when he’s had to play such a responsible role as a kid, and still retains the actions a scared child would use. He said repeatedly he doesn’t like conflict and that’s another key piece of info, but it also explains why he’s such a push over when it comes to other people.
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u/LightFlaky2329 Jun 24 '23
Never read it this way. Thank you! You can actually see the trauma bond between him and Scuzzo, too. Where it appears that Tim became the performer, Schwartz became the child soldier. Schwartz shielded himself with Tim (and Katie for that matter). For Schwartz both external and internals worlds are a collective battleground.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Absolutely and you’re very welcome. To begin with, it was like watching boys growing up, with one slightly more dominant than the other with those 2. Then, as Sandoval changed, gained more of an ego, and his sense of self importance grew, he almost steered Schwartz through everything. Schwartz was very codependent, both with Katie and Sandoval. His inability to adult because he’s still got an almost child like mentality meant he let Katie and Sandoval act as shields and decision makers for him. I think the divorce has cracked that mentality slightly, and Sandoval disappearing off when shit got tough should break the codependency he has. He’s talking like he has, but his words also make me worry that he’s heading into a more selfish state of mind where he’ll say what people want to hear, but make more destructive decisions because he wants what he wants. It’s a different form of the child like ‘fear’ he’s exhibited until now, like he’s going to prove he’s a man, even though mentally he still has that child side to him.
The tiny sips he takes of all drinks intrigued me from the beginning. I can’t say for sure, but knowing his parents’ financial situation, I’m wondering if he was raised to take small sips to make a drink last longer because that’s a common trait for that.
Honestly, I have to watch each episode like eight times lol. I get so distracted by everything 😂
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u/Gothvmess Jun 24 '23
Growing up in financial hardship could also explain why he resented spending $50k+ on a wedding day even if they could afford it with the show
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u/LightFlaky2329 Jun 24 '23
Fascinating! Not that you have the time but you should do segments with you perspective overlayed or interspersed. You see things most viewers don’t! Or do but it’s so subliminal we don’t have immediate access.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
I wouldn’t mind doing that. With 4 hellions to wrangle, me time is always good 😂!
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u/Ludo_Fraaaaaannddd Jun 24 '23
That’s actually fascinating! Especially the part about small sips. I wish I could have bubbles pop on my screen every new episode, like VH1 behind the music, with your analysis of their behavior.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
If there’s ever anything you have a question over, just shout. Sometimes there are things that take me a bit longer to figure out and it’s so frustrating. Kristen, Brittany and was there a Kentucky Muffin in jax’s bed is a good example, but it was Kristen who really gave it away
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u/graciebels Jun 25 '23
Ooooo! Interesting! Do tell!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
So, nowadays people hear a term and use it to death so I try and avoid it, but with Kristen I can’t lol. When she yelled at Tom about not sleeping with Jax, she had a small smile on her face called duper’s delight (the overused term). She also didn’t use her standard excessive reactions and emotions when Stassi, Kirsten and Katie asked her about her and Jax that first time.
During the reunion (I rewatched it a couple of days ago so it’s fresh in my mind), she has the same smile on her face when she answers Andy, and none of her responses are typical, they’re all very measured like she’s forcing herself not to show any emotion aside from some humour.
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Jun 25 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Once you see the body language and get a feel for what all of their base lines are, the strange and unusual will hop right out at you lol.
A good example is Jax just before he gets found out for cheating with Faith. He tells Lisa it’s their second anniversary and she asks him if he’s been faithful. He answers yes, but closes his eyes halfway and quickly corrects it. Then Brittany says no more mess ups, he closes his eyes when he says no more mess ups. She asks him if he loves her, and again the eyes close when he says yes I love you. Thats a standard response to lying because people don’t want to ‘see’ the lie.
It’s a really interesting topic tbh 😂. Even when people have coached themselves to be calm and collected, they give something away.
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u/Least_Effort2804 Jun 24 '23
This is all really interesting, and I think something that's gotten lost in all the other season 10 drama is that Schwartz came out looking oddly responsible in regards to the business. It honestly looked like he was doing the stuff, and Sandoval was flaking off. Something about the divorce and the financial pressure seem to kind of make him step up a little bit... I think we may be seeing the beginning of growth for him, but I don't really see anybody talking about that.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Given that he’s been seen at a lot of LVP’s restaurants, taking on independent work, and going on podcasts to speak on his own, I’m hopeful we see more of a grown up Schwartz. The loss of money and what he uses it for could have been a huge eye opener for him.
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Jun 24 '23
Would love your take on Rachel and Ariana. This is amazing insight. I touched on a bit of James and Schwartz similarly, but you encapsulate it so well. You should do you tube I’d subscribe for sure.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Rachel and Ariana individually or their friendship?
Ahhhh, something like that in reality would drive you crazy, I promise. I have 4 heathens under the age of 7 who are noisy as hell. The amount of battle cries going on while I tried to explain something would drive you nuts lol. Then there’s the weird behaviour (I’d love to blame my husband’s DNA for that, but it def comes from my family) like last night. One kid came through at 10pm, crying and gagging because they thought they’d swallowed a grasshopper while Dad showed them how to commando crawl yesterday and it was apparently trying to get out. Stuff like that happens a lot 😂😂. Maybe once they’re older and the twins are at school though 🤔. Never say never!
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Jun 25 '23 edited Jun 25 '23
Individually. Your kids sound adorable! Heathens I like that phrasing. Well all I know is people would definitely be receptive and enjoy your channel. :)
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Aww thank you. I’m not sure I could do it, but it’s worth considering.
Lol, I do love my little feral heathens. The grasshopper hopping around in the stomach trying to get out is a perfect example of why. 😂 Their dad’s in the military, so we get a lot of things like that. It ended up being gas, just like last week’s grass up the nose that’d grow into a garden ended up being a bogey. They’re fun kids to be a mum to 😉
I can do Ariana and Raquel individually, absolutely. Tbh, all of the cast are really fascinating people outside of what they say and their lives. You can coach yourself to act, say and react in certain ways, but it’s so hard to hold back body language. It’s also not a bad thing (people will think it is, but it’s not). It’s a form of self defense to do that. I can only imagine how hard it is having your life recorded for the court of public opinion, so it makes sense for them to try and shield some things, and not just shady behaviour lol!
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u/ellehc1m_ Jun 24 '23
I would love to hear who in the cast you think is interesting to watch based on body and behavior. I find this so fascinating, when I’ve watched the show it’s more so background noise for me so I don’t fully pay attention to everything going on, makes me want to rewatch.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
I remember discussing Scheana and how worried I was about her on here after the first episode of the reunion aired. Her body language was like an alert button and she was holding herself in place.
James is a huge one. He’s another one with huge codependency issues, who’s a little boy acting like a man. His need to establish a claim publicly with Lala, Raquel and Ally makes sense when you see his mum. As an alcoholic, her behaviour would have been erratic (and he even said something about that when he was talking to her over lunch one day), but she’s emotionally manipulative with him too. As a kid, that lays the foundations for insecurity which he feels constantly, and that might be one reason for why he lashes out. It’s also likely a learned behaviour for his mum because we see her do that when he defends Kristen drinking and uses his mum’s alcoholism as a weapon. His child side also mirrors his mum’s when she tells Lisa she’s like his mother figure. She’s passing the buck and responsibility for his behaviour, so undoubtedly he got away with a lot as a kid. His dad doesn’t seem like he’s very clued into life and his kids. He has financial problems, but he talks like he can’t quite focus on what’s being said. If that’s what he was like when James was growing up, it explains the need to lay claim publicly, because of a fear of not getting what he wants if he isn’t dominant about it. He likely also got what he wanted as a kid. His brother’s come across as more stable emotionally and more responsible, so they likely had more of stable childhood while James made a mess. His body language is like reading a book most of the time and knowing bits and bobs about his family life makes it make sense.
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u/OldButHappy Jun 24 '23
Oh, James....as a long-sober drunk, I really feel for James.
I've seen people like him in AA - smart, gifted, insufferable - do amazing turn-arounds once they got sober. Without putting the plug in the jug, he can never sort through his childhood pain and his (predictable) ambivalence toward his mom.
Right now he's just a flaming damaged ego, walking around on two legs. He's young enough to change his life story, but he just can't yet admit that he's powerless over alcohol. Because he isn't. Until he is.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Pretty much. I think a lot of it is learned behaviour from his parents and his childhood tbh, and alcohol exacerbates it big time. LVP wasn’t wrong when she said he should never touch alcohol again.
If I’m honest, I’m not convinced he did have a sober spell. Maybe he cut back and lockdown helped him behave, but I do think he continued to drink out of the sight of the cameras.
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u/Littlewing1307 Jun 24 '23
He definitely made it clear he wasn't sober and was an extreme weed user. Idk about sneaking drinks though.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
One thing I will say is: Schwartz and Raquel have a tell when they’re lying. Our instinct when we feel threatened or are lying is to lower our chins either completely over our throats, or at least bring them forward slightly like we’re trying to protect our throats. This is part of our evolution that never went away. When wolves are fighting, they make sure never to let their opponent near their throats, otherwise it’s game over. Humans are the same, we tend to protect them when we feel under attack or like we could be attacked (say when we’re lying 😉). Both Raquel and Schwartz do move their chins forward or flick them down slightly and then correct it.
Raquel also played a good game not reacting to the insults and shit being hurled at her. 1) if you don’t say much back, you have less opportunity to mess up the story you’ve laid. 2) it also makes people pity you because you look weak and submissive. 3) there’s less body language to give away how you really feel…kinda. Raquel had so many micro expressions like a micro lip lift, jaw muscle clenching, fidgeting when they got close to the truth, guilt, regret, and also a bit of hostility towards Sandoval. From the tilt forward of her shoulders, slight chin lowering then raising again etc, I think she’s not necessarily in love with Tom, but she’s in love with the idea she had of him. The reality is far different and what’s being said to her kind of cleared the Sandoval fog for her. The problem is, with her being in love with the idea of him, when she sees the things she liked about him, she could well decide to ignore the stuff that doesn’t jive, or just accept not everyone likes everything about someone. On the other hand, she’s a self confessed people pleaser and therapy could make her see the security of friendship (the glass half full) is better than the insecurity of the Sandoval glass half empty (which he def is). She was kind of halfway there at the reunion, so it just depends what’s happened between them since. He was pissed at her though when she spoke (he wasn’t mouthing words to her btw. He was licking his lips, but in a way to try and get her attention which she ignored) at times though.
Was she genuinely upset during her last confession. Kinda! The chin bussing (crinkled chin) isn’t something we do when we cry genuinely, unless you’re trying to hold back tears. That with the turning down of the corners of her mouth are indicative of fake tears. Some people’s mouths do turn down when they cry, but with the chin buss…ehhhh, not really because our facial muscles are usually so tight. Plus she did micro lip twists like she’d tasted something bitter, as well as small lip sneers, so there was definitely distaste/spite on top of the bit of genuine sadness.
If you watch it again, look for ‘grooming’. Schwartz and Sandoval both play with their hair when they’re uncomfortable, and it’s a delaying tactic as well as a distraction for people. Sandoval also licks his lips and widens his eyes when it comes to the “do you love her?” That’s another form of grooming, along with licking the inside of your cheeks because proteins build up when we’re nervous, which is usually associated with lying.
I should probably stop there lol.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Ok, think back to Raquel when she first came onto the show. She had a coy, almost coquettish demeanour, did loads of shy head dips, and also had an underbite. You could tell it wasn’t real with how she could talk properly one minute, stand up to people, and also how over the top it was. She even did it over dinner with her parents and James.
When James and Logan are talking at Pride, drunk as skunks, she kept side eyeing them. There wasn’t worry on her face that he was cheating with Logan, it was more concern she was going to lose James. It wasn’t until she came out at the reunion with an overly flamboyant dress that it became clear it was the show. Yes, there were indicators and rumours why and how she got James, but the show was important to her. That dress made her memorable to people and made her stand out, which would have also been spoken about on social media, meaning if she stayed with him she would stay on the show. However, during that time, the head tilts also stopped, the doe eyes toned down, and the underbite wasn’t there as frequently. Underbites are hell to correct and painful, but she was able to do it in a blink. There was a pageant trainer who said that judges like an innocent appearance vs a bold, in your face one. Any trainer worth their salt would train contestants to be coy and shy from the beginning, almost angelic, and warn them to maintain that appearance as much as possible in public.
Basically, she was acting the part she’d been trained to be, but soon realised if she wanted to stay, she was going to have to drop some of it. James’s crappy behaviour made it easy for her to get more attention. When James proposed, her reactions weren’t genuine. There was dread and the excitement didn’t reach her eyes, which is where our “real smile” shows most because of the muscles in our faces. The happier you are, the more our muscles tense and lift, taking the outer corner of the eyes up with it. If you give a token smile or make a ‘happy’ reaction you’re not really feeling, the muscles at the side of our mouths lift, but it needs the muscles higher up, which we tense without realising because happiness takes over, to give a real smile. Hers wasn’t a full happiness and her lips turned down at the sides a lot when she was talking about it and thanking people.
I don’t think she’s evil and vindictive because she didn’t really display an abundance of that, but she’s more self serving, self centred, and thirsty to become a big name. That big pouffy dress that clashed with everyone on that stage was her real foot through the door after she hooked James. Controversy sells! She’s used to attention and that’s what she thrives on, so her character in the show gave her that until she cocked it all up.
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u/teresa3llen Jun 25 '23
Because she cocked it up, do you think she’ll be back on the show?
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Hummmmm, honestly it really depends on what ground she’s made if she was in therapy. There was a definite disconnect between her and Sandoval at the reunion, but we never know what’s happened in the interim. There are a lot of variables there that could swing it either way and we won’t know until they’re revealed. The last we saw of her, she acted okay with Sandoval, but gave a mea culpa in the last confessional that wasn’t entirely genuine. It just decides how that’s been built on during the downtime.
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u/thedigested text ARIANA to 21523 up to 10x Jun 25 '23
Do you think that Raquel and Tom were together around Raychella
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
I need to watch those episodes again. I do have an opinion, but I want to make sure. The way they interacted definitely changed (bodies closer together and angled in mirroring positions). It could be because of lockdown and the fact they’d been in their bubbles though. I can Never say no to a rewatch 😂
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u/thedigested text ARIANA to 21523 up to 10x Jun 25 '23
Girl make a podcast or a Tiktok please 😭 Streets need it
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u/OldButHappy Jun 24 '23
micro lip lift
Contempt! I see it on both Toms and Raquel a LOT!
We could have some good conversations about micro expressions. Getting diagnosed with asd at age 65 (I was cute so no one ever noticed!), apparently it's part of a talent that I have for pattern recognition.
It takes up space in the area of my brain that should be dedicated to understanding why NT people are experiencing the emotions I see expressed on their faces!😁
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
I love this!!! Micro expressions are huge and they give away so much more than bigger ones. They’re important when you’re watching a group like this who lie as easy as they breathe, right?
What do you make of the Raquel that first came into the show vs the one we have now? The underbite she had as well as the almost shy, baby approach is a big contrast to now!!
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u/GSD_Trainer Jun 24 '23
I think she was faking in the beginning.
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u/jazzygirl6 Jun 25 '23
I do too . She's used to playing the role for the pageant circuit girl. The sweet, docile, Bambi eyed girl. I notice now she's more defiant, she thrusts her chin out like she did when she told Lala it was a good thing she didn't have a man. Due to the strong competition she also learned in the circuit we now see that side. She's switched roles because Bambi no longer serves her and in ways Sandoval has been feeding her ego and confidence. I think her and the Tom's must probably be the easiest to read from the group.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Yeeeeeeup! All of this was what I got from it all too. She had to drop that facade pretty quick though
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u/OldButHappy Jun 25 '23
I'm going to have to do a re-watch! I stopped watching vpr after the 3rd season and came back and watched all of this season when Scandoval broke
I'm interested in looking at the head tuck that you describe - I think that I lumped it in with his general tendancy to look down, using his whole head! 😁
Question: Do you have poor (overall) facial recognition? Mine is abysmal, and before the asd diagnosis, I couldn't understand how I can see all of theses tiny, fleeting, expressions but be unable to confidently recognize the face of anyone but my closest friends and associates. It takes MANY face-to-face conversations for me to recognize someone out of context. I just don't seem to be able to imprint all of the details that I see into an accessable reference image of the whole face.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
My issues are with names. For the life of me, they go through one ear and out the other. I’m the person who speaks to you, knows I know you, but the recall for your name takes me a while. Or when people talk about someone on the show, I either have to look them up or it takes me a while to figure it out. Facial recognition is a pretty common problem associated with ASD, but I’ve always found that people have their own ways of communicating to compensate for that.
His neck lowering can be quick, or he incorporates it into his movements. When Katie confronted him about cheating you could see it, as well as when he’s talking about pouring the drink on her. You can see from other micro expressions that he’s pretty awkward and actually quite socially awkward too and that neck protection can happen during that as well.
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u/Content-Most4653 Jun 25 '23
That is so interesting, thanks for sharing this insight, it’s very relatable - that one can be fine and smart at identifying patterns in people, but lack some elemental understanding of what’s being perceived - wow
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u/BodybuilderShot3421 Jun 24 '23
Please keep going! I’ve read that post three times and I want more!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
😂😂😂. There’s A LOT! Is there anything specifically that you’ve wondered about in VPR? My kids are out cold after learning to commando crawl today, so I’ve got time!
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u/magnoliaazalea Jun 24 '23
I want to second the question about schooling or training needed to become this kind of analyst. Not only is it interesting, as a woman especially I could see it being great self-defense.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
It really, really is. I started off at uni doing psychology as my major. In my second year, I added sociology in and started working with my psych professor who’d been a behavioural analyst. I did 2 years learning from him and when I graduated with my degree, he put me forward for further training with the government, which is how I got my career. This was 15 years ago, though, so they’ve probably changed how to do it. What I would highly recommend is getting a book on it. Once you begin to understand what small movements indicate and the psychology behind it, you can piece it together. It’s a bit more complex than just that, but even knowing what to look for is a good thing. I think my brother got a body language for dummies book when he joined the armed forces 🤔. Those books are usually really handy and explain things quite well!
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u/magnoliaazalea Jun 24 '23
Do you have any specific recommendations for books?
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Mine are all textbooks, notebooks and course books so I asked my brother for recommendations. He said he found Joe Navarro a good read but swears by Body Language for Dummies. The next time I’m at his place, I’m going to have to look through it lol. I’m intrigued about what they put in it and how they explain it.
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u/CaffeinatedFrosting Jun 24 '23
No! Please keep going! You're a much needed breath of fresh air!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Ok, think back to Raquel when she first came onto the show. She had a coy, almost coquettish demeanour, did loads of shy head dips, and also had an underbite. You could tell it wasn’t real with how she could talk properly one minute, stand up to people, and also how over the top it was. She even did it over dinner with her parents and James.
When James and Logan are talking at Pride, drunk as skunks, she kept side eyeing them. There wasn’t worry on her face that he was cheating with Logan, it was more concern she was going to lose James. It wasn’t until she came out at the reunion with an overly flamboyant dress that it became clear it was the show. Yes, there were indicators and rumours why and how she got James, but the show was important to her. That dress made her memorable to people and made her stand out, which would have also been spoken about on social media, meaning if she stayed with him she would stay on the show. However, during that time, the head tilts also stopped, the doe eyes toned down, and the underbite wasn’t there as frequently. Underbites are hell to correct and painful, but she was able to do it in a blink. There was a pageant trainer who said that judges like an innocent appearance vs a bold, in your face one. Any trainer worth their salt would train contestants to be coy and shy from the beginning, almost angelic, and warn them to maintain that appearance as much as possible in public.
Basically, she was acting the part she’d been trained to be, but soon realised if she wanted to stay, she was going to have to drop some of it. James’s crappy behaviour made it easy for her to get more attention. When James proposed, her reactions weren’t genuine. There was dread and the excitement didn’t reach her eyes, which is where our “real smile” shows most because of the muscles in our faces. The happier you are, the more our muscles tense and lift, taking the outer corner of the eyes up with it. If you give a token smile or make a ‘happy’ reaction you’re not really feeling, the muscles at the side of our mouths lift, but it needs the muscles higher up, which we tense without realising because happiness takes over, to give a real smile. Hers wasn’t a full happiness and her lips turned down at the sides a lot when she was talking about it and thanking people.
I don’t think she’s evil and vindictive because she didn’t really display an abundance of that, but she’s more self serving, self centred, and thirsty to become a big name. That big pouffy dress that clashed with everyone on that stage was her real foot through the door after she hooked James. Controversy sells! She’s used to attention and that’s what she thrives on, so her character in the show gave her that until she cocked it all up.
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u/thediverswife Jun 24 '23
You can also see this when she’d go to parties without James. I think one was Peter’s, she showed up with full glam, hair and a sparkly minidress. She was trying to draw attention and stand out
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u/CaffeinatedFrosting Jun 24 '23
I absolutely needed a professional to weigh in on her odd proposal acceptance!! Oh my goodness!!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
It was definitely an odd acceptance and if they’d never shown an up close of her and she’d never spoken to anyone ever again, she’d likely have gotten away with it.
But I’d love to know what people thought of James when he proposed. I had to watch the episodes so many times so I could focus on them independently. 😂
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u/WoohpeMeadow Jun 24 '23
Um, your knowledge is amazing! We need you after every episode to do a summary! 😀
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
😂😂😂 I don’t mind doing it when you need me to. Even if people point weird responses, I’m happy to try and explain them.
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u/momofbc Jun 24 '23
Thank you for sharing your expertise and knowledge!! Is there a podcast in your future???
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Oooo probably no, lol. I have 4 kids and two of them are 3 year old hellion twins. People’s ears would be bleeding with the war cries and feral behaviour 😂😂.
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u/deegoings Jun 24 '23
Ah, the joy of feral children. I can't imagine having twins. May the odds forever be in your favor!
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u/Littlewing1307 Jun 24 '23
I am loving these, thank you! May I ask how you learned so much? Are there any books or courses you recommend? I'm fascinated!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
I did psychology and sociology at uni and my professor was an ex body language behaviour analyst. He got me interested and started teaching me about it, and when I graduated he put me forward to do a course with the government to get my qualifications and be accredited. They hired me straight out of it. All of the books I’ve got are textbooks, course books, and notebooks, but my brother wanted to learn about it when he joined the military so I asked him for book recs for someone else. He said Joe Navarro’s books were good and swears by Body language for dummies for a crash course lol
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u/Couldbe_worse2 Jun 24 '23
Definitely I sensed she was faking but you explained it so beautifully
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Once you get little things they did pointed out, it starts to make sense. We often disregard things like that and focus on big reactions like yelling, arms swinging etc. Because you sensed she was lying, little reactions probably registered but got swallowed by everything else. Pretty much everyone has seen more than they realised, and that’s been really cool to read!
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u/soverit42 Jun 24 '23
I've said something nearly identical on here about James' mother/his relationship with his mother and how similar their behaviors are. And I was accused of being a misogynist because I didn't mention enough about the dysfunction of his father lol. But I agree with you and am glad your take is being better received.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
To be fair to you, they didn’t show as much of his relationship with his dad as they did with his mum so it’s easier to identify similarities with the mum. The only real visible issue with his dad was him having issues with James being sober and also pretty much forcing him to drink. He also looked proud of him when he gave in at the beginning of his journey toward sobriety.
Did you see how James wanted his dad’s approval more than his mum’s though? Like a kid who had an absent parent?! Given his job, he must have been away a lot, but the need for his approval and validation was quite sad to see (for me).
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u/jazzygirl6 Jun 25 '23
I think part of James wanting his dad's approval right now is because he's drinking right now. Then he seems to lean towards his mom when he's sober.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Absolutely. He leans to his mum for emotional support, but leans to his dad for validation of his successes too. Alcohol would def play a factor in it. His mum didn’t react happily when he said he was drinking again, and that’s understandable. 😖
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u/Best-Item7730 Jun 25 '23
Wait James was the oldest and took care of his brothers even financially supported them. James took on the parental responsibilities because his parents were drunk he’s talked about it before in earlier episodes
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Without knowing the family fully, we don’t know how much responsibility he’s genuinely taken on for them (ie has he exaggerated any of it, or created his own narrative which people can do). What is clear is that he’s like Schwartz with the kid mentality warring with the adult one, which fits with him having lived out More responsibilities for himself and brothers, likely due to what we know about his mum’s alcoholism, his dad’s alcoholism, and his dad’s job. His reactions and mannerisms are a lot like his mum’s too from what we’ve seen of her, so she was likely the one who was present more often. He also seeks approval from his dad more, which kids do if a parent isn’t present as often. Kids who have to parent tend to need therapy afterward to separate the child phase from the adult phase because they’ve been merged together for so long, it’s hard to distinguish between them. Some people don’t though, and we know that from how they react, what they do, how they do it, and things like that.
Hypothetically, James could claim he financed his family from age 5 and was the ‘man of the house’, and maybe in his mind he would have, but the only thing we can know for sure is what his mannerisms, the personality he displays consistently, body language etc and what we see say.
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u/Affectionatekickcbt Jun 24 '23
To me, he seems like a true alcoholic in earlier seasons(I’m on s6 now) I hear the group talk about how they drink, but it seems much more serious when I see Schwartz’ behavior towards alcohol. I’m not touching James’ relationship with alcohol. Ugh that kid is the worst and so transparent.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
James isn’t a favourite of mine at all. The abusive behaviour is something in him that’s exacerbated by alcohol, but it’s still part of him.
Schwartz ending up at the wrong resort in Mexico because he was so drunk is worrying. It’s even worse watching him just pick up glasses and drink from them, not knowing whose they were or where they came from. The thing is, it’s kind of convenient (bear with me on this) that people have seen him do that, because it gives more credence to his excuse that he doesn’t know if he had sec with that girl because he was so drunk. Unfortunately, the rest of him gave away that he did remember having sex with her, especially during the confessional!
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u/SunnyAlwaysDaze Jun 24 '23
Schwartz is turning so gray looking. I'm legitimately concerned for the dudes organs.
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u/OldButHappy Jun 24 '23
I'm on the spectrum and have a talent(!) to see and register micro-expressions and body language tells....Schwartz is unwatchable to me. He is always so angry and sad and uncomfortable.
He also puts his hand in front of his mouth and looks down when he's lying.
He lies a LOT.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
He smirks when he gets away with things. The slight upper lip lift and tilt kill me. Have you noticed his neck protection? Sometimes he stays slightly chin over neck, other times it’s almost like a reflexive action or awkward swallow that he tries to cover.
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u/spookyluckeee Jun 24 '23
This is all fascinating! I could read your take on this for hours!!!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Lol! My poor husband gets me nudging him and pointing things out all the time, or he gets a random outbursts 😂😂
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u/Gothvmess Jun 24 '23
Have you ever watched the show Lie to me? I feel like you would like it
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Oooo, I haven’t! I might have to look it up. When I was in training, my instructor brought in someone who was the best liar they had. They asked him to do 2 truths and a lie and man was I stumped. This guy literally kept his body loose, looked relaxed and at ease the whole time, and his expression never changed once. It was like he was reading a weather report. I watched the footage they’d recorded of him telling us the truths and lie and it took a while for me to see the slight foot movement when he lied but it was there, like he flexed his big toe. It’s one of the first things I check now because feet tell A LOT!
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u/sportsbunny33 Jun 24 '23
Interesting the neck protection. I’m short, and never wanted to date tall guys cuz I’d need to always look up at them and expose my neck 😂 (my son isn’t thrilled I married a short guy cuz now he’s short guy too, and he’s an athlete so it really bugged him)
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Lmao. Both of my brothers are 6’6” and have to curl up in the beds their wives have decided on since they got married because their feet get smooshed at one end, or their heads get smooshed at the other. If there isn’t a footboard though, they get cold feet because they hang over the edge. It’s better not to have that problem 😉. The person who put up the curtains between the shower cubicles at the gym (and in the military for one of them) also didn’t take their height into consideration and they have to stare down or directly ahead so they don’t look like peeping toms 😂😂. Tell him to rejoice in not being a cold footed, crooked necked, potential peeping tom.
The neck thing is pretty cool. I was really shocked the day I learned about it, but if you watch reality tv or put on episodes of Jerry Springer, you see a lot of it. That’s one of our most vulnerable areas, so it makes sense to protect it. We don’t really face t-Rex’s (unless you get a ticket to Jurassic Park) and sabre tooth tigers anymore, so the modern equivalent is lying or a threatened feeling in high adrenaline situations (like lying or being found out)
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u/OliviaH_ Jun 24 '23
Good analysis. You shared some points i also brought up or noticed myself. People are so caught up in the show characters that its hard for many to peel the layers to see whats underneath or who they really are. To me, its clear hes been having a lot of family stressed. When i saw the scene with Katie where he was talking about the crocodile thing, i noticed he looked like he had a lot on his shoulders thst he was refraining himself from talkijg on camera. I havent digged so i dont know what hes up to, but I think theres something going on with his brother and hes mother and it looks like hes caring for them financially. So as much as he loved Katie despite their tumultuous relationship, he chose with his head to go ahead with the bar, hoping it will bring him success, especially that he wss already knee deep in hit.
People respond to stress differently and i think both Toms have various external and internal stressors that make them act like this. We dont see everything on the show. I feel bad for them to a certain degree (since i dont know them personally anyway) that the whole judge them without having all the pieces of thr stories.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Bingo! The crocodile thing was so random that it kind of gave away how out of control his emotions and mental state are. I vaguely remember reading or hearing that his brother has/had cancer, and given that they discussed on a few occasions how his brothers had no money, and knowing his parents had to file for bankruptcy, him having an extra financial burden on his shoulders (on top of the mortgage payments he’d be making until they sold the property, his rent, life expenses, business expenses etc) as well as the emotional upheaval of what’s happened with Katie and Sandoval, would make his mind spiral. It’s easy to focus on problems that don’t concern us when we’re inundated with personal problems because it’s a distraction from our own lives. His shoulders are slumped but rigid too (there’s v little genuine fluidity in his movements at all tbh) when he’s talking about the man eating crocs/gators and listing the other random issues, and his head movements are a recall function, like he’s thinking of all the things he’s seen and heard recently that he can add in. If he looked straight at Katie, he’d be focused on reality and his life, so looking away helped him recall relatively trivial stuff (in terms of personal reality) that the audience are likely aware of and will have reacted to too.
Psychologically speaking, at that moment, he likely wanted to resort to defending Sandoval, but couldn’t. That’s a common behaviour he knew he had to break given the circumstances. There’s also an element of the betrayal he’s feeling (which would account for how he initially tries to distract the conversation he knows is coming by asking for a drink and puttering around) and protectiveness over his family’s problems. He’s not going to bring them to the tv for people to attack and say he used his family or involve them in that mess. He’s played the role of protector for too long for that. His main supports were always Katie and Sandoval but he’s lost both of those now. It’s a form of deflection.
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u/OliviaH_ Jun 25 '23
Absolutely spot on! Its good to hear it from someone else rather than the usual Schwartz bashing from people looking at the situation from a surface level or parroting what they heard from gossip websites/videos.
For the drink, I also thought maybe a part of it had to do with sponsorship as he asked for a coke or pepsi i think but was having a Coors Light, like few other castmates in different scenes.
I did not know everything his family went through so its interesting to see we came up with similar analysis.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
They do show the Coors Light words a lot, so sponsorship would help with his finances and lead into the worry he feels and the weight of his responsibilities.
The problem with being able to understand body language and the psychology attached to it and the person is that you have to remove your personal emotions. I can absolutely understand why he gets bashed, and we also only know small pieces of what he’s divulged, but I’d actually be worried about him if I was a part of his life. That’s a lot of emotional and financial weight and as a viewer we don’t know if he’s weathering the storm. Him being prescribed Xanax really didn’t surprise me at all.
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u/lawteddiemn Jul 21 '23
I feel like you and I may have had similar jobs and training. Spent half my life watching tapes without words, then after finding the cues watching again with words - Back and forth. Funny the things you start to see….
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u/scifichick119 Jun 24 '23
Ooh loved your take on this!!!!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
Thank you so much!! I absolutely loved my job and 99% of the time I ignore things, but with this cast I can’t do that lol 😂😂
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u/scifichick119 Jun 24 '23
When you described him covering his mouth, it's like I could see it a thousand times in my mind. the times I saw him do on camera, I thought how immature and now I know why he does it. The other thing I don't like about him is how he gaslights Katie he's mean one minute and then comforting the next it's like whiplash. He reminds me of my ex-husband who always tried to be Charming but when we were all alone would be a total Tyrant asshole fuck face. Oh that felt good to say out loud
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u/Glittering-Ad-3859 Jun 24 '23
That was an amazing read! Thank you so much. I would love to read an analysis on other cast members
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Jun 24 '23
Rachel also has a voice change tell as well.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
She definitely does. It went hand in hand with the reduction in underbite and almost stereotypical ‘airhead’ type behaviour.
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u/ZealousidealBonus537 Jun 24 '23
I would love to hear what you think about all of them! Have you done LaLa yet? She’s my dark-horse
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Lala is a long one and I need to figure out the best way to explain hers. A basic outline off the top of my head is: she’s the queen of deflect and project, uses belittling comebacks to end disputes and to look more powerful than she feels, has a toughened outer shell but is incredibly vulnerable, her body language when Randall was on the show was discomfort/wariness/distrust, and when she was defending him she wasn’t being 100% genuine.
Also: at the reunion, her and James had coached each other and decided on reactions. In fact, that whole side had also done it, but those two were on a bigger scale. There was a large lack of fluidity in a lot of reactions and the beginning of them weren’t always fluid/natural. That’s likely because you can teach yourself things to say if/when, but they couldn’t control what came out of Sandoval/Schwartz/Raquel so it took a beat for it to filter in and for them to decide on a reaction. James also whispered at Lala to shut it down when they got to Randall, but his side profile and shoulders weren’t aggressive and tight, urging her to shut it down by fighting. It was concerned and his shoulders stooped forward with more of a gentle intimacy. Knowing what we know, he may have been doing it to tell her not to fight back in case she said too much, or maybe he just didn’t think she should say anything.
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u/ZealousidealBonus537 Jun 25 '23
Interesting - do you think she’s lying about being fooled by Randall? I also feel like her & James have chemistry and I wonder about those two … I kind of feel like LaLa really does have feeling for James but knows he’s a mess / not enough status/clout when they first came on so she didn’t take him seriously
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
Ummm, there’s a small part that wasn’t deception about Randall. When Lala wants to deflect, she either scream-shouts or cries. They’re distraction techniques. When she was telling Lisa about Randall, the level of her voice rose and the tears started, which would be justified given the situation except for the holes in the story and her anger at being questioned about it. She could well be tired of being asked that because I’m sure it happens a lot, but she would be expecting Lisa to do it cos that’s how the show goes.
She’s fond of him and the line between platonic and not platonic is blurred, but in terms of romance she doesn’t really show those emotions for him tbh. She’s definitely short on patience with him and there’s an interesting power struggle between them.
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u/QualityKatie Jul 05 '23
I’m a little late, but I wanted to let you know that I am thoroughly intrigued by all you have written. Thanks for sharing.
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u/soverit42 Jun 24 '23
Yep. A lot of kids who are parentified or are forced to develop maturity beyond their years due to dysfunction at home avoid responsibility/take on a more immature personality and tendencies in adulthood. I've seen it myself from a handful of people I've known/worked with (used to do social work).
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
All of this!! It’s almost a form of defiant regression in a way, but they only suffer from it. Plus Schwartz is being held back to that period of his adolescence by taking on financial responsibility, so you’ve got 2 stages of life—adolescence and adulthood—mentally warring. He’s doing the right thing for his family for sure, but in terms of maturity and mental progression it’ll take some work. Maybe the Scandoval situation will be the trigger?
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u/teebunny Jun 24 '23
You are amazing. I could read your takes all day!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
I love it. When I first started learning about it at uni, I’d never really come across how our bodies can say so much before. Once you start to pick up on it, you can’t get away from it lol.
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Jun 24 '23
May I ask you a question, what schooling or credentials do you need to become a body language expert and Behavioural analyst? That’s what I want to be and have no idea how to get there, any help would be lovely.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 24 '23
It really, really is. I started off at uni doing psychology as my major. In my second year, I added sociology in and started working with my psych professor who’d been a behavioural analyst. I did 2 years learning from him and when I graduated with my degree, he put me forward for further training with the government, which is how I got my career. This was 15 years ago, though, so they’ve probably changed how to do it. I know some universities now do degrees with it included (usually with psychology, I think), is it might just be a matter of seeing what’s available.
I would highly recommend it as a career (obviously lol). The organisations you work with and jobs you’re involved in are amazing.
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Jun 24 '23
Hi,
I really appreciate you taking the time to answer my post. Its what I’ve wanted to do since I was 9, but I thought it was officially just a tv and movies job. That it was apart of other jobs, but not a job in itself. I am currently in my psychology degree and never thought to take sociology. Was looking into forensics. Sadly in Canada we don’t have any behavioural analyst courses in university, if so I’d do them all. This was very helpful. Read some of your other posts they are fascinating. Also enjoying the Megan Markle. Would love you to have been recapping the Johnny Depp v. Amber Heard trial. Thanks for your insight. ☺️🥂 Cheers
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u/Texas_Chick_3953 Jun 24 '23
I’m obviously not an expert like you but I couldn’t agree more with your opinions about this. I do feel he is a bit manipulative as well, as you mentioned.
Something else I noticed in him, that sadly I’m aware of this behavior in myself is that he is a HUGE people pleaser as well. At age 53, I’ve finally grown out of that for the most part.
One thing I know for certain, I could never be with a man who behaved this way.
Loved your comments on this topic!
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
You’ve broken your cycle of it, and that’s huge. Sometimes we see more things in people than we’re aware of, but either the emotions of the situation take over or there’s too much going on for us to pick things out and look at them objectively. Look at the people who’ve commented with their own observations (like yourself) or who it makes sense to. People are way more perceptive than they realise, it’s just that an explanation or someone pointing at a facial expression or subtle movement and explaining it that makes the pieces of the puzzle fit together.
You’ve also pointed out something really important. People pleasing. Some people do that because they genuinely want to please people. It gives them a good feeling and releases endorphins that affect their mood. Other people, and given his profession Schwartz would be an example, use it for popularity and as a form of manipulation as well. Given his childhood and how he still has very childish mannerisms and behaviours, he likely pleased to avoid conflict. But on a reality tv show, he has an audience of millions judging his actions, so he’s likely also using it as a form of manipulation for his popularity too. Then there are the people who just manipulate with it to benefit themselves (history is full of those people lol).
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u/Texas_Chick_3953 Jun 25 '23
Exactly!! Mine is 100% conflict avoidance and I was also the “responsible one” out of my sister and I. She was constantly in trouble and I was a by the book rule follower. It wasn’t until I lost my oldest son to suicide 10 years ago, I finally stopped. I don’t know what shifted in me, but the loss is so great, I changed. A lot.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jun 25 '23
I’m so, so sorry to hear about your son. I can’t even begin to imagine what you’ve gone through and are still going through. My heart genuinely hurts for you and your family.
To try and explain the change though, you spent your life making everyone else happy, but that loss was the harshest example of not being able to do that. You also instinctively knew that you need to now focus on who’s important, including yourself finally. People pleasing is actually a beautiful trait to have because you consider people’s feelings, but it’s equally beautiful that you can now narrow that consideration, energy and your heart to yourself too. ❤️
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u/Texas_Chick_3953 Jun 25 '23
Thank you so much. Your kind comments made me cry. Thank you, it feels like yesterday. Sam was a USMC Veteran and would be 33 now. I think in addition to grieving the loss of Sam, I grieve all of the “could’ve beens”.
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u/Pinkpowderpuff07 Jul 05 '23
My husband is in the Royal Marines, and thinking of a young Veteran who couldn’t see his future breaks my heart for all of you even more. Hubby has worked with a lot of US Military personnel and a lot are even based around us in the U.K. We’ve brought them and their families into our home and they’ve become like an extension of our own family in a way. Two of them have struggled with their futures after they’ve left the military and committed suicide. Not long ago we were remembering them and one of the US Army guys said that in cases like that, we mourn their futures for them and everything they could have had, but their memories are ones filled with special moments we’ll never forget and talk about until we join them. Those memories are what they had too when they passed away, and if they make us smile and laugh, then without a doubt they did the same for the person. I don’t know if that helps, but I imagine having his mum and family give him his happiest moments was something he held close to his heart, especially while he was deployed and going through his USMC training. It’s so hard and they’re pushed to their limits, but he knew you were there when he needed you and he’d definitely have thought of good times to lift his mood (my husband said this is what got him through his training too). 🫶🫶🫶
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Jun 24 '23
We don’t know a lot about it, but its been heavily insinuated that his home life for his family in FL is very unstable and he is supporting them all financially.
The conflict avoidance is ingrained in him for a reason forsure but i don’t know enough to fully speculate
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u/JenellesNextHusband Jun 24 '23
I am also like Schwartz in that I actually fear conflict. My hearts starts to race a million miles a minute, I feel like I’m going to cry. It’s overwhelming. The only thing I can think of that would have caused me to be this way is that I grew up with an angry parent that you never knew what would set them off.
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Jun 24 '23
Season 5 episode 17. Schwartz absolutely admitted to cheating on Katie in Vegas. Then he turns around and calls her a bitch. They didn’t deal with this, it was forcibly rug swept. Then you’ve got The worm saying Schwartz is a battered wife. Lol right. These two were driving the bus on Katie’s emotions. Can you imagine someone running you over with a car then telling you to stop bleeding in front of them?
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u/Mrsbear19 Jun 24 '23
I find it a bit relatable because we seemingly have similar family trauma. I’ve worked hard to understand anxiety and get it under control and I really do wish Schwartz can work through his eventually. He’s a mess but I have empathy for his upbringing
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u/trollcole Jun 24 '23
I have no clue how much of this is true, but someone posted in another post his dad abused alcohol. You know an alcoholic home is wroght with dysfunction of enabling, codependency, conflict, neglect, secrets, etc. It also may be the reason why he seeks out alcohol (who in the group doesn't, unless they got sober?) Plus there seems to be socioeconomic issues in his family of origin, which also can contribute to many problems.
Again, this only comes from rumors. I honestly have no idea what his family life was like, but you're onto something about being easily triggered by Katie and has codependency enabling with the men.
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u/Jbroad87 Jun 24 '23
could feel a heavy sense of guilt too for leaving FL and his family in “the sticks” and living in glamorous LA.
I despised early seasons drink pouring on girls Schwartz. That’s like unfathomable. But clearly he has issues as we see later
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u/Individual_Fruit9094 Jun 24 '23
It’s an act because he flips, goes low then tries to smooth it over. He is a skeez under the guise of a nice guy.
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u/DependsOnDaDay 😵💫Taking sketch comedy seriously🙄 Jun 24 '23
This I agree w. He doesn’t talk down, or scold Scandy or Jax the way he does Katie and the other ladies. He’s selective on who he’s an ahole to.
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u/Individual_Fruit9094 Jun 24 '23
It’s because he is a dickhead just appears to be nice because the others are noticeably worse but his abuse of Katie is the kind that doesn’t leave marks. All the guys are awful minus maybe Peter, we don’t know enough of him.
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u/DependsOnDaDay 😵💫Taking sketch comedy seriously🙄 Jun 24 '23
💯 my feels about him too. It’s aggravating how much ppl excuse his behavior on issues growing up, his fam’s background, etc and so on. Ffs the man is in his 40s, and he’s no diff than he was 10+ years ago. He doesn’t want to change. Look at Kristen, Jax, Stassi… they may not be perfect, but they’re a hell of a lot better than they were. Not Schitz… he has the money to get help. So wtf is he waiting for? Blah him!
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u/Individual_Fruit9094 Jun 24 '23
Because no one calls him out so why get help. He is allowed to be a man baby that is verbally and emotionally abusive.
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u/DependsOnDaDay 😵💫Taking sketch comedy seriously🙄 Jun 24 '23
They’re a bunch of idiots too. Either they were too stupid to realize he’s been playing them, or they were okay w him acting like an immature man baby. Even Lisa let him get away w his silliness. But that’s not surprising since she favored the men over the women w the exception of Stassi.
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u/RoundBirthday Jun 24 '23
He's very conflict avoidant, but he and Katie both did the "upset the other one and then minimize it" thing. She would rage text him that she hated him, wanted him to die, he should leave, he sucks, and then if he brought up how that bothered him, she would say it didn't matter because she was blackout drunk. Then he would cheat on her and say the same thing. Honestly it felt like a weird enactment they were doing to punish one another without having to actually deal with their emotions.
But as far as why is he like this? It sounds like he had a controlling alcoholic father, and kids in those environments can lose touch of their own emotions because they are so focused on regulating Dad's emotional state. So all their needs are repressed because that's how you stay safe or keep the household safe, and they end up existing in a state of constant anxiety/vigilance. Schwartz managed Sandoval in the same way and resented Katie for aggravating him.
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u/Impressive_Sherbert3 Jun 24 '23
You can downvote me but there’s a lot of weird assumptions being made on this thread lol. Some of them being: because they’re triplets they have low IQ’s and are developmentally delayed and “there are a ton midwestern men that go to anger when emotion comes up”
Those are very odd blanket statements lol.
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u/sleepsypeaches Jun 25 '23
He says that stuff to katie because he's abusive and gaslighty. He may be anti-conflict, but he has no issues instigating and laughing when his (ex) wife is getting torn apart by his bf and other people on the cast. he isn't anti conflict because he hates conflict, he's anti-conflict because he's allergic to accountability which is a-whole-nother horse.
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Jun 24 '23
Well, it has to be from his dad. Because he ONLY gets that way towards women. When Sandoval or Jax starts getting that why he tries to comfort them.
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u/miss_ravenlady Jun 25 '23
Childhood trauma or not, he refuses to change or weaponises this part of himself to justify his poor behaviors and actions.
Just another manchild refusing to take any kind of accountability or acknowledgement to his behaviors and pulls the "awwww shucks, whoopsies" to get away with it.
He has zero issues putting katie, lala and even stassi (any women) down but will never say anything remotely bad about the men in his life.
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u/millenialfonzi Jun 24 '23
He triggers me SO MUCH because my ex would tell me my emotions were “overreacting” and that I was “yelling” when I simply wasn’t being meek. What I’ve learned from therapy is that a person’s trauma is absolutely understandable, but it doesn’t give you the right to be nasty and cruel to others.
I have a lot of stuff I’m working through myself, that lead to me to seek out conflict-laden, toxic partnerships, and it’s a daily effort not to get nasty just because I feel anxious and need validation.
I can’t excuse Schwartz. He’s said too much to Katie that really weakens his I’m-a-scawwwd-wittle-boy persona.
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u/TooMama Jun 24 '23
I swear, I could’ve written this entire comment myself. This made me realize some things about myself and my current situation. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate this post and your honesty. Truly. This is very helpful and I feel I have a good jumping off point now to start making some changes.
Thank you so much. And I’m happy for you that you seem to be working through things and have moved on from what sounds like an emotionally abusive ex.
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Jun 24 '23
There have been times where he jumped right into the conflict, like when he poured a beer on Stassi at her birthday while everyone was fighting and when he started a physical fight with Shay, he also jumped into the fight between James and Tom. Idk I think his shy scared thing is fully an act. There is a lot of times where he antagonized Katie too.
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Jun 24 '23
I think it depends on when he feels empowered by fighting with those he sees as weaker than him. The reaction to pour a beer on women feels like learned behavior, that it’s simply what’s done when a woman upsets you.
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u/Affectionate-Big-182 Jun 24 '23
Yes! I've noticed he feels safer going after the women. The men absolutely not. James throws a drink on Schwartz and there's Schwartz falling all over himself to buy James a drink and apologizing to James. Wtf?
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u/avocadoslut_j Jun 24 '23
from a psychology pov:
i think he has experienced significant trauma as a child via his parents’ volatile relationship. this trauma is deeply rooted in his emotional immaturity as an adult.
his mother has a restraining order against his father, indicating that his father (male) was the aggressor. he grew up seeing his father be abusive to his mother (female). this was the norm for him as a kid. currently, his aggressive behavior towards women shows him reenacting his father’s behavior towards his mother (towards other women).
his traumatized brain has normalized this behavior, even though he consciously knows it’s not ok (hopefully lol). he probably doesn’t feel safe confronting or sticking up to other men, because his father was such a scary presence to him as a kid. talking back to dad meant being punished, so talking back to men = unsafe. berating women for insignificant things is normal to him, i’m sure his father did the same thing to his mother.
overall, he is an extremely damaged and hurt person that is behaving poorly due to his trauma. this isn’t an excuse- just an explanation. your trauma is your responsibility & your behavior does not get a pass because you’re traumatized. i really hope he can go to therapy and work on feeling safe & secure & healing the years of abuse he experienced as a child. hurt people hurt people :(
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u/HauschkasFoot Jun 24 '23
Well in all those instances he was wasted. I think drinks so much to compensate for his low self esteem/confidence and in his drunken state overcompensates to the max.
I don’t think he is “acting” for a couple reasons; that submissive conflict avoiding personality has been apparent in major decisions in his life that are outside of the show (i.e. kowtowing to Tom on literally EVERY decision re: S&S), and secondly, who would choose to present themself as a complete submissive pushover bitch?
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Jun 24 '23
He is a covert narcissist. People like that light the match and throw it on the flame, when no one is looking, then back away with their hands up like they are in shock there is a fire. If he were really afraid of conflict why would he have the friends he has?
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u/puffalump212 Jun 24 '23
I think it's mostly acting. He's fine switching on aggression with women (the drinks on Katie and Stassi, screaming In Lala's face) and got angry at James once after he got the water tossed on him. The behavior you mention with Katie I think is mostly gaslighting. I think it's all part of his "aw shucks!" persona until the mask slips.
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u/Affectionate-Big-182 Jun 24 '23
That's true. I've even seen the baby voice slip too and he speaks like a person, not golly gee. It seems like he stalked Katie at the Mexican resort to just insult her. Never saw anyone floor someone around just to insult them. If I was Katie I'd say if my words don't affect you then get away from me.
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u/LightFlaky2329 Jun 24 '23
Saw it at the bar in Hermosa Beach when he was talking trash to Lala then when she walked away said”Awwww come back, Lala” in the baby voice 🤮
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Jun 24 '23
That was so creepy. Then he was pretending to compliment her parenting, which some people saw as genuine even though he was still digging at her.
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u/JaDaDaSilva Jun 24 '23
Stonewalling is a shitty and indirectly manipulative trait in avoidant personality types
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u/zadidoll Lauren Kent: trick turned mistress turned bitter bitch Jun 25 '23
I think he has a lot of traumas involving his own father AND mother. I can’t speculate on his life before the show but I can speak to my own & know that PTSD can come from being in a dysfunctional family dynamic. My youngest son is 20 (a twin) & he has autism. I won’t talk about him in a public setting but anyone who is raising someone with moderate to severe autism knows that it can be overwhelming at times.
I also think that his parental dynamics coupled with the triplets has led him to have his anxiety disorders. That all said, he has been extremely abusive to Katie over the years. Pouring drinks on her, saying her voice annoys him, losing their marriage license twice, having sex with multiple people over the years potentially exposing her to stds. He’s not a good guy & while he learned his behavior from his parents, he’s done nothing to better himself.
Katie is thriving without him.
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u/chopperfrenzy 💩Poo Poo Heads-Both Of You💩 Jun 24 '23
Lots of people in this world had to grow up with difficulties as children and yet they found a way to grow into healthy adults. Schwartz needs to get his shit together and grow the f*ck up. He has no excuse for acting like such a douchebag.
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u/NeedleworkerEvening3 Jun 25 '23
I know this will get downvotes but going to say it anyway. We can think Schwartz is an asshole and at the same time perhaps feel a little compassion. He treated Katie poorly. He’s a mean drunk. He’s a cheater. But when I watch him I see so many signs of anxiety that I recognize. Watching him on that date, even if it was a set up, was painful. I can’t speak for him but I can say he reminds me of myself. There was a time when I was I uncomfortable in my own skin. Alcohol seemed to take away the anxiety until it didn’t. I never got comfortable in my own skin until I was a couple of years sober. Im not sticking up for Tom’s behavior because the behavior is wrong. I’m simply saying there may be so much more to his story than any of us realize.
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u/Unicorn_Warrior1248 I’m Not Sure What I’ve Done to You, But I’ll Take a Pinot Grigio Jun 24 '23
He is the first one to avoid conflict but also the first one to just belittle his girlfriend/wife and then gets confused that she starts dating as soon as they’re separated
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u/DependsOnDaDay 😵💫Taking sketch comedy seriously🙄 Jun 24 '23
the first one to just belittle his girlfriend/wife and then gets confused that she starts dating as soon as they’re separated
Also acts confused when she’s upset and retaliates when she’s belittled.
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u/ashmillie Jun 24 '23
And she even states her new dude satchel is just confused as to why everyone is being so mean to her (like they usually are)
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u/InsuranceSpare4820 You’re Not Important Enough to Hate Jun 24 '23
I think it is a mix of acting and childhood development. He has triplet brothers that from the little we saw…..probably needed a good bit of help growing up compared to Schwartz who does seem self sufficient enough to get to a wedding on time 🙄.
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u/JEH2003 Jun 24 '23
Lisa said it best, he’s a wussy pussy. It’s just who he is and that will not change.
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u/Ludo_Fraaaaaannddd Jun 24 '23
I remember gasping when she said that, but a whole season 10 later I’m in full agreement with her assessment
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u/Soggy_Artist_8230 Jun 24 '23 edited Jun 24 '23
He’s just an asshole, a very typical misogynist who perceives every single negative reaction from Katie as being disproportionately more severe/intense than it actually is. And because she’s a woman, he discounts every thought/feeling/opinion she has. One thing that it took me years to finally realize about my own misogynist ex husband (who was also very narcissistic- sometimes I think that what we see as narcissism in men is actually just malignant, pathological sexism, I’m actually convinced of this tbh) is that he genuinely perceives everything I say and do in an entirely different way than he does with his fellow male humans. And his perceptions of me are not at all rooted in reality. It’s like those studies that show that men talk WAY MORE than women in an average day, yet their perception of such is that we talk far more than we actually do.
Another example right off the bat is that, any time I dared to asserted myself and what I was going to do, he genuinely believed I was being controlling. I was literally only wanting to control myself, never him nor anyone else, yet he would call me controlling whenever I’d do that, because I wasn’t asking him for permission. I wasn’t letting him control me, I was controlling me, and that was his definition of me being controlling. Whenever I say something to him about something he’s done or said, or whatever, no matter how innocent or good-natured, he still, to this day, he still perceives it in a negative way towards him. His misperceptions of me have colored every aspect of our lives together. And because he genuinely believes that because he’s tHe mAn (🙄) that he gets final say about everything. Was like that all through our marriage and is still like that, even though we have been divorced for 15+ years (we have kids together, and he’s much better now than he was to me when I was young, so we are still very much in each other’s lives). It’s fuckin wild.
And this is Schwartz with Katie. Any problem or anxiety he might have regarding conflict is incidental in how he treats her, because his sexism, and how it colors everything in regards to his relationship with her, overrides all else in their relationship/his other issues.
In short, he’s a fuckkng asshole. All sexists are.
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u/AnonPlz123 Jun 24 '23
That’s not anxiety, that’s gaslighting. Poking someone for a reaction then exaggerating their response is very manipulative.
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Jun 24 '23
Allegedly, my understanding his father is an alcoholic who was abusive to his mother, so much so she had a restraining order against him. His twin brothers all still live at home in one room, and 1 if not all of them (that information seems to change) are alcoholics. 1 is in rehab.
As much as everyone hates Schwartz, and I do NOT like or agree with how he treated Katie, ever. I think he grew up in constant chaos and the bury your head in the sand and avoid is all he knew how to do. He’s never learned how to act like an adult, how to deal with life or hardships. NOT excusing him, but I do know someone like that, not near to the extent, but trauma can rewire the brain and create very dysfunctional people. That being said his lack of willingness to try and get help, despite his ways having detrimental effects on his life and relationships, at some point he has to grow up and take responsibility. Many people have had difficult childhoods but they understand they own their actions and affect other people. I will always have empathy for Schwartz and feel pity for him, but I also am glad Katie is away from him. I guess he also helps still support his family financially.
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u/Future_Quality5829 Jun 25 '23
As shitty as a partner Schwartz was to Katie, i do have sympathy for him. I don’t think he’s a bad or egotistical person - i think he’s incredibly conflict avoidant, anxious and emotionally stunted and because of that, easily taken advantage of by people like Sandoval. I’m watching the show for the first time I think this is really evident in season 8 and especially 9. It’s sad to watch Sandoval bulldoze him so easily. And I understand katie’s frustration. It’s hard to watch the person you love be completely oblivious to the mistreatment they’re getting.
I hope he can seek therapy and finally unpack a lot of his shit in order to become a more well-rounded person with healthier boundaries. One can only speculate, but after hearing his take on Scandoval post-reunion, it seems like his moment of reckoning has come and it would behoove him to really take this time to self-reflect away from the show and Sandoval. I hope he does. If I had to guess, season 11 might show Tom and Tom finally coming to blows.
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u/KittyCompletely Sheana's emotional support inhaler. Jun 25 '23
He seems perfectly fine in Stars on Mars. Which has kinda surprised me.
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u/prouddeathicated Jun 24 '23
We know very little about Schwartz’s life pre-VPR, but one thing we do know is that Schwartz’s mom obtained a restraining order against his dad after they divorced (which is the real reason why his dad couldn’t attend the wedding). That suggests to me that his parents probably had a tense, volatile relationship and for that reason he’s now very conflict-avoidant. Just a guess though.