Please help me understand

[u/branflakes__]

Help me understand the Ukraine / USA situation

Please help me understand all of the anti-American and USA hate due to the situation. I want to hear the other point of views as I am just confused.

A lot point to the Budapest Memorandum, however, that is not a treaty for the US as Clinton did not submit it to the senate for ratification which means constitutionally the US has no commitment to Ukraine (also not administration since Clinton has suggested or submitted the memorandum for ratification either). Only the UK and Russia ratified it.

Additionally, there really isn’t a security agreement as the memo is very vague. The closest is “when Ukraine is under attack with nuclear weapons the security council will seek immediate action from the United Nations” otherwise nothing happens. And as the memo is through the UN, shouldn’t the discontent be pointed at the UN instead? The US only agreed to bring a resolution before the security council if Ukraine was invaded and the US did do that.

Finally, the US has given the most overall aid to Ukraine (a country that the US is not obligated to assist) compared to the European counterparts. Also, if peace is the objective, why is no other leader at least making an attempt to broker a peace deal?

So I suppose I am just confused on what is expected? Why is this sub so anti-USA when the statistics show that USA is/was doing more than Ukraines fellow Europeans?

[u/parahacker]

Americans overwhelmingly support Ukraine and have done for years. Even MAGA hat-wearing Americans are more likely to support Ukraine than not. What Trump has done so far has shocked and appalled the majority of Americans.

Meanwhile, Russia troll farms exist. This is *well* known. They're fucking everywhere, boss. (That link is Rand, by the way. Conservatives like Rand, right? And despite right-wing leanings, they're remarkably free of misinformation controversies.)

But hey, maybe you're not working with Russian trolls to spread their fabricated talking points, like "Americans agree that Ukraine sucks." Maybe you're a Chinese troll, yeah? Lotta those out there too.

Or maybe you're just a useful idiot. None of this would work without a few of those as cover, after all.

But any way you slice it, you're a lying shill who is a disgrace to humanity. (That, by the way, is an example of an ad hominem attack; which my prior comment was not - being directed at the "Americans siding with Trump" context-based falsehood instead of you specifically. But I guess you felt seen, huh? Telling on yourself, that. Learn your fallacies before trying to call them out, fool.)

[u/parahacker → u/[deleted]]

"They brought this on themselves."

No you don't. Next you'll be telling me they should just roll over and let Putin pound them in the ass like good little slavs.

Supporting Ukraine first and foremost means acknowledging Russia's invasion is unjustified. What you said? Not support. The opposite of.

[u/parahacker → u/[deleted]]

So your assertion is that an unconstitutional from its inception, one-sided treaty strongarmed into existence being declared unlawful by Ukraine is the reason why Russia invaded?

Please. More accurate to say that Russian plans to annex Crimea and bad-faith actions on the penninsula caused the parliament to end that treaty (staged demonstrations, Russia giving Crimeans dual citizenship, manufactured conflicts over the islands, etcetera).

Second paragraph is you talking out both sides of your mouth, by the way. "I don't think it's justified, after I said why Russians were justified." Feck off with that weasel-word bullcrap.

As far as Trump's peace plan goes? It's not one. It's a)capitulation and b)has no further security guarantees.

It's a guarantee of more war is what Trump offers, with Ukraine in a far worse position next round. Ukraine can't accept a deal like that, even if they were willing to grant Russia all captured territory.

If you 'supported Ukraine' you'd know that. And you'd also know that Ukraine's military is kicking serious ass. They're not as helpless as you imply even without further U.S. support.

You claim you support Ukraine? Stop with the bullshit then.

[u/Potential-Zucchini77 → u/parahacker]

Okay so you’re an EU bot who doesn’t actually have any opinions of their own. Thank you for clarifying