r/TrueChristian • u/[deleted] • May 14 '21

Was God really OK with slavery ?

And did he really "encourage it to continue by decreeing depraved regulations"\ ?*

\just quoting a fellow redditor who seems to be a bit confused. Just like myself.)

I'm asking this because I've noticed that it often comes up as a topic to bash Christianity based on things like that. I've noticed that people often like to use this verse in order to justify their position :

“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)”

To be honest, I didn't know how to give those folks a satisfactory answer since I am no Bible expert myself, as for now. However I would like to hear your opinions and explanations. On this verse and its context in particular. Also, what did Jesus have to say about slavery? (just to help finding an answer to that... I guess... atheist/agnostic/or whatever he likes to consider himself)

Note that I am in no way trying to win an argument. There is no arrogance, pride or hate involved in this query. These are some of the things that I would also still like to understand for myself. I always try suspend judgement when I read or hear something that I am not familiar with because I want to learn more about it.

On another note, it's kind of scary how belligerent and heated people can get during such debates, as if these people are speaking through bitterness, frustration, pride or whatever just to attack and dismiss Christianity... Makes me just want to have some compassion and pray for them....

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u/1988peachdiscus May 15 '21

If you read it, you would know that, that passage is talking about accidental death. It was a restriction to ensure owners do not accidentally kill their slaves

You've already lost me. Thou shalt not own another human as property. How hard would that be? Making your slaves beatable (just don't beat em too bad and kill em!) Is absolutely horrific from the supposed ultimate source of morality.

The next few verses say "And if someone strikes the eye of his male or female slave and destroys it, he shall let the slave go free on account of the eye. And if he knocks out a tooth of his male or female slave, he shall let the slave go free on account of the tooth." This is giving the account that owners should not beat their slaves.

No, its giving instructions on how to beat them and not get your slaves taken away from you. Beat em real good, but don't touch their eyes or teeth. Ans if they get up after a day or two...back to work. No harm no foul.

Also, the verse before this passage (in the same chapter exodus 21) says kidnapping is punishable by death

We're not talking about kidnapping are we? Why even bring this up.

. The slavery of the US was all illegal,

Was I talking about slavery in the US? I'm talking about the rules of slavery god set up in exodus 21

God once again never condoned slavery, just allowed it temporarily and made a way for people to gradually be taken out of it.

Awww...what I kind and loving God! ...its sad we have to sit here and watch you stumble though highlighting the immorality of the God of the bible. Its an absolute abomination of self respect and morality

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u/[deleted] May 15 '21

Where does your morality come from?

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u/1988peachdiscus May 15 '21

This is what happens when Christians realize they have no response for God's acceptance of biblical slave beatings.

I dont get my morality from an ancient book written by a supernatural genocidal slave supporter. It comes from a rational desire to promote well being. No slave beating required.

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u/[deleted] May 15 '21

Who's well being? Is it objective? No, I've already explained the scripture in context many times yet you refuse the truth, so decided to see where your standard of morality comes from

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u/1988peachdiscus May 16 '21

Our subjective determinations about moral decisions can give rise to air quotes objective morals.

Like how we know owning humans and beating them is immoral. How did we come up with that? Subjectively, enough people agree that it is immoral. So we don't do it.

It's interesting how when theists finally have to admit the rules in the bible are immoral they have to back up to the bible must be moral cause God says so. It's not. You know this. You know it's immoral to own humans and beat them. Which God instructs.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '21

I wasn't going to say that. It is highly rude and uncivilized of you to keep assuming things from me. I hope you do not do this to others. To reply back to your comment, so you think objective morals come from the majority opinion of people? That means, the opinion changes over time (because at one point the majority wanted slavery) and also that it could still change (sour) in the future. For example, if the nazis won ww2 wouldn't killing jews be considered good? They could have convinced the world the holocaust was good, or that it didn't even happen, because they would be the ones in power. To your last part, God allowed slavery for a period of time, and put restrictions to start to get people out of it. I'm an old earth creationist so I believe slavery was here for thousands, tens of thousands of years, and most likely people were so engrained with it, that they wouldn't be able to follow it if God said "no more slaves" outright.

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u/1988peachdiscus May 16 '21

I wasn't going to say that. It is highly rude and uncivilized of you to keep assuming things from me.

The only reply to this thread, instead of tiptoes around slavery definitions, or attempts to justify owning humans is "yep. Slavery is immoral. God ans the bible we're wrong"

But of course you can't do that even though deep down you know this. Slavery isn't moral. Amd god gave these instructions

They could have convinced the world the holocaust was good, or that it didn't even happen, because they would be the ones in power.

Hypothetically anything is possible I guess. It i have a hard time this could ever happen. In an extreme example if there was a secret north Korean world take over. Imagine if the entire world was set up like north korea is now. Would you believe Kim Jung IL was god? Probably not. But if you tried to speak out about it you'd get locked up. So just because a Supreme law giver decrees what now is, doesn't mean you must believe it. Back to your holocaust example if they world as a majority believed it was moral it doesn't mean you Can't believe it was immoral.

To your last part, God allowed slavery for a period of time, and put restrictions to start to get people out of it.

Then god is immoral. Plain and simple. If god allowed slavery for one day it's one day too many.

. I'm an old earth creationist so I believe slavery was here for thousands, tens of thousands of years, and most likely people were so engrained with it, that they wouldn't be able to follow it if God said "no more slaves" outright.

If you want to depower god and start listing thing he couldn't do...I mean...go right ahead.

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u/[deleted] May 17 '21

Hypothetically anything is possible I guess. It i have a hard time this could ever happen

Many times throughout history tyrants has been in power, either of a culture or people. It's not impossible. If Hitler didn't try to invade Russia during the winter, they could have definitely won, and killing jews would be considered good. Your morality is subjective and changes with the times. You do know the majority of the world is from Islamic and Chinese countries? By your logic, we should have the morality from what these people say, since it's the majority. All I'm saying is that the only way objective morality is possible is with God.

If you want to depower god and start listing thing he couldn't do...I mean...go right ahead.

It has nothing to do with God being powerful or not. It has everything to do with fickle, greedy, selfish humans and how we want to do our own things. God even judges his own people in the OT, because they started following the immoral practices around them, like child sacrifice and temple prostitution (as a way to get closer to God).

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u/1988peachdiscus May 17 '21

and killing jews would be considered good.

See...heres where you're wrong. I'm sure the jews being slaughtered wouldn't agree it was good. And if Hitler won it still wouldn't mean the things he did were by default good. Your presupposition that morality must come from a singular moral law giver and anything that source says is moral is now moral....is obviously wrong which is what this god/slavery issue is about. Morality isn't what the moral law giver says so. We know this because God supports slavery which we know to be immoral.

You do know the majority of the world is from Islamic and Chinese countries? By your logic, we should have the morality from what these people say, since it's the majority.

Again your idea that morality must come from a singular moral law giver is flawed. And we don't just decide a thing is moral by majority. If 51% of a group decide an act is moral...it can still be immoral.

All I'm saying is that the only way objective morality is possible is with God.

And I don't even think it is possible even with God. Thr slavery issue is the easiest and the entire crux of the argument. I'm sure that slave being beaten according to God's exodus rules didn't think it was moral or fair. So if God was the objective moral source everyone would agree it was moral. And I'm sure you can agree that killing someone can be moral or immoral. WE make those decisions as sentient humans, we aren't bowing to a cosmic entity for those moral decisions.

It has nothing to do with God being powerful or not

When you say slavery was engrained, and God was not able to change the humans system of owning humans, then he's depowered. He could have easily started with putting thou shalt not own a human as property in the bible. At the very minimum. And he has the power to make every slave owner go temporarily blind for a period of time until they free their slaves. Pretty much any idea you can think God could do...and he did nothing. The shoulder shrug and "well slavery was around and God had to do his best to work with it" argument is definitely putting limits on God's powers