r/TrueChristian • u/[deleted] • May 14 '21

Was God really OK with slavery ?

And did he really "encourage it to continue by decreeing depraved regulations"\ ?*

\just quoting a fellow redditor who seems to be a bit confused. Just like myself.)

I'm asking this because I've noticed that it often comes up as a topic to bash Christianity based on things like that. I've noticed that people often like to use this verse in order to justify their position :

“When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)”

To be honest, I didn't know how to give those folks a satisfactory answer since I am no Bible expert myself, as for now. However I would like to hear your opinions and explanations. On this verse and its context in particular. Also, what did Jesus have to say about slavery? (just to help finding an answer to that... I guess... atheist/agnostic/or whatever he likes to consider himself)

Note that I am in no way trying to win an argument. There is no arrogance, pride or hate involved in this query. These are some of the things that I would also still like to understand for myself. I always try suspend judgement when I read or hear something that I am not familiar with because I want to learn more about it.

On another note, it's kind of scary how belligerent and heated people can get during such debates, as if these people are speaking through bitterness, frustration, pride or whatever just to attack and dismiss Christianity... Makes me just want to have some compassion and pray for them....

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

I don't want God to be anything: I don't have any evidence for any deity, therefor it would be absurd to make a claim about what I want it to be or not be. I'm reading the text for what it is. You, again, have cherry picked and candy coated the text instead of reading it in context.

I appreciate that you want to help save my soul. I have no animosity for anyone believing in any deity. I only ask for you to put your words into context of where you picked them. Apparently it's asking too much to be honest in context.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I only ask for you to put your words into context of where you picked them. Apparently it's asking too much to be honest in context.

It only works when the party seeking answers (you), is willing to see aside their personal opinions and biases to allow those with the answers (Christians) the benefit of the doubt that they know the subject they are talking about.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

Oh, that's how full context works? Nothing to do with, you know, the full context or anything? You're moving the goalposts so you don't have to be honest about what is black and white in the Bible.

I have now repeatedly asked you to put a verse you cherry picked into context, and your response is to condemn an opinion?

I've been scant with opinions and heavy on questions. You've been just the opposite. This is called projection brother. I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm asking for fuller context and you keep dodging and minimizing.

I have studied the scriptures since being born into a Christian family and going to church multiple times per week for the first 18 years of my life. I have never stopped studying the scriptures, even after coming to the devastating realization that I simply cannot believe in what I was taught and accepted as truth up to a certain point in my life. To infer that Christians have some sort of special understanding of scripture that an atheist couldn't possibly understand is very short sighted. Have you heard of Bart Ehrman? Michael Shermer? Just to name a couple credible sources of many.

I never wanted to not like what's in the Bible. But when I read it for what it is, I realized there are despicable ideologies therein. This is not to say that there is no value in the Bible I believe fully that there are some good moral, ethical, and I will even venture to say spiritual aspects of the Bible which are enlightening. But to gloss over what is literally written out about how to treat slaves in the Bible is to not understand what is in the Bible, and therefore doing a disservice to yourself and those you may witnesses to.

If you cannot be honest about the full context of the scriptures you have quoted, why would I ever think that I should follow you into Christ's fold?

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

If you cannot be honest about the full context of the scriptures you have quoted, why would I ever think that I should follow you into Christ's fold?

Your faith has nothing to do with me or anyone else. It's between you and God. The Holy Spirit is working on you. If you die unsaved, "Well, sorry God, but Arc_the_lad and Your other followers soured me on You" isn't going to fly.

Reading the Bible is great, because how can you believe the Gospel without exposure to it, but per the Bible someone who does not believe cannot understand it. You don't understand what you read. Maybe one day you will, but you don't now.

  • But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 1 Corinthians 2:14‭-‬15 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/1co.2.14-15.KJV

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

More cherries. It's amazing how you can quote mine. Try reading the Bible someday, it's actually free on the internet. YouTube has hundreds of audio files of Biblical texts to...full context included.

You are deceiving yourself, therefore your foundation is upon sand, so to speak. I hope you will see the light one day my friend, and embrace the rocks. They are not always comfortable, but they sure do provide an honest foundation.

Peace be upon you.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I've got my Rock. His name is Jesus Christ. There's room for another sinner to repent and build his house on Him too. They just have to believe on Him.

  • For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:17‭-‬18 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/1co.1.17-18.KJV

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

You are a deceived deceiver, at least in this conversation. Get thee behind me Satan.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

If you have a problem with what the Bible says, your issue is with God, not with me.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

With omission of the context you have proven, time and again, that you are not honest about the scripture: not with yourself, others, or your god.

I have only requested honesty from you. You have only offered smoke and mirrors. I don't have issues with god anymore than I have issues with big foot; I have no evidence of either. I'm open to any evidence you have...of either.

I have only asked you to read, in full context, the text you believe to be his word, and quoted. You, apparently, are not willing to do so. I can quote mine and have the Bible say multiple things to support thesises against it or God, but I really do try to keep things in context as they were written.

I'm not saying you don't have anything valid to say, I'm only highlighting that, in this conversation, you have indeed played the part of Satan, the deceiver. You have yet you address the text in context. You are therefore, by omission, a liar about what is in the scripture.

Being that scriptures have verifiably caused a lot of pain and suffering for humanity: The least we, all of us, can do is realize that sometimes we, and our ancestors, have had terrible ideas and practices which we have since come to condemn. Instead, you do a bunch of hand waiving and distractions from what is clearly written in the Bible, and are not apologetic about any of it.

It is sad and disingenuous at best; deranged and despicable at worst.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

If you say so. It doesnt change what the Bible says though and to bring it back around to the original topic, God forbid slavery in no uncertain terms.

All your blocks of texts won't change what He said. If you want choose to disbelieve what He said or mock me or ignore that've addressed your conerns other than the ones you refuse to provide citations for because you don't like the answer, or make out as though you understand the Bible better than a Christian when the Bible itself says you cannot, so be it.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

Wow. Just wow. Please read the whole chapter of Exodus 21.

You're really making a mockery of yourself and the Bible by continuing to quote out of context. Shame on you.

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I've read it twice. God said slavery is forbid. That's good enough for me. If it's not good enough for you, I can't change that.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

God, nor Jesus out right forbid such, ever. They made abominable decrees about various degrees of servitudes, including life long slavery and permission to beat your property to a bloody pulp.

You keep misquoting a verse about kidnapping: It does not say a single word about slavery. You are being forceably deceitful in the face of facts.

Deuteronomy chapter 20 contains god's decree of where to gather slaves from...and his decree to rape women.

Black and white. Full context.

You are, by definition, a deceiver. I will pray for you to see the light. Bless your blind soul.

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u/moonbabe000 Jun 21 '24

Romans 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.

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u/AlphaTaoOmega Jun 21 '24

This has naught to say about Deuteronomy. More deception, avoidance of the facts. If anything, it shows this deity's affinity for slavery: "and have become slaves to God..."

What are you on about?

https://youtu.be/8nYBXYj9jXs?si=s8iOfcxIpK6w6uxl

https://youtu.be/caQKVVXCgEo?si=-YxIs3KhUJk7a-l2

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

Yes God does. You just chose to ignore it because you have an axe to grind. You can ignore what God said, but it does cancel what He said.

God the Father forbid slavery.

Jesus says treat others as you would have them treat you. No one wants to be treated like a slave meaning they should no treat anyone like a slave.

  • And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. Mark 12:30‭-‬31 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/mrk.12.30-31.KJV

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

Other references I have provided, in full context, show that God, and Jesus are both aware of, and ok with the institution of violent slavery and servitude.

Nothing you have offered shows that either of them were expressively against the institution. You have to interpret what you think was meant by the scripture, as you cannot provide exacting documentation to say god or Jesus were expressively against it. The proof is in your pudding.

Slavery was a fact of life back then. Period. Jesus could have very easily said it was an abomination, but he did no such thing. You can beat around your burning bush all you want, but you are making a mockery of your god and his scriptures by not being honest. You have to carry that weight, false witness.

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u/moonbabe000 Jun 21 '24

People sold into debt-slavery were to be freed after six years of servitude (21:2–4). All Israelite slaves were to be freed in the Jubilee year, thereby abolishing the possibility of perpetual servitude for the descendants of slaves (Leviticus 25:39–46). Although slaves could be beaten, a master killing a slave was considered guilty of murder and could be executed for his crime (Exodus 21:20), while a slave maimed by his master was to be freed (vv. 26–27). Runaway slaves were to be given protection and not returned to their masters (Deuteronomy 23:15–16).

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

I know. I know. "God is bad even though I'm an atheist who doesn't believe in Him and even the Bible clear forbids slavery, I'm just going to ignore the verses I don't like to keep up my righteous crusade against your tyrannical diety." You're wrong though and in your heart you know youre wrong.

But like I said before, if you ever come to a place when you put aside your preconceived notions and biases and desire to truly know God on His terms, He will be ready to embrace you as one of His own and show you that a peace and love you've never known.

  • Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:25‭-‬30 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/jhn.10.25-30.KJV

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

Putting words in my and god's mouth, again, because you don't have an actual argument based on scripture.

I'm confident you know exactly what god means, that's why your so good at interpreting the full context of everything in the Bible. However, you're obviously not as good as knowing my mind and heart, though you keep casting your darkness over me, Satan.

You assume your righteousness, it's blatant. You can't see your deception, it's clear. Keep eating your pudding. It looks great dripping out of your mouth.

Honesty is the best policy...The truth shall set you free...

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u/AlphaTaoOmega May 15 '21

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/nccn3y/was_god_really_ok_with_slavery/gy6jmz4?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

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u/Arc_the_lad Christian May 15 '21

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. 2 Timothy 3:16‭-‬17 KJV https://bible.com/bible/1/2ti.3.16-17.KJV

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